Preview Round 7, 2023 : Western Bulldogs v Hawthorn, 4:35pm Sat April 29th

[SpanishBrowne]

It's a discussion forum, not an opinion forum. You are free to give your opinion, just as others are free to critique that opinion.

Sounds like you just want to say whatever the * you like without anyone disagreeing with you.

Opinions =. Good
Opinions on Opinions = Bad

 

[HedgeFund]

Is argue that getting 3 disposals can't qualify as getting your job done no matter what position you play.

Yes I like stats because they are numbers and not open to interpretati

Geez you must have been a massive critic of Cyril back in the day then.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Geez you just have been a massive critic of Cyril back in the day then.

I used to love going to work of a Monday morning and hearing dickheads say to me 'oh I see Cyril only had 10 disposals' as though they were some kind of genius who when I said to them 'did you actually watch the game?' would sheepishly admit they hadn't.

 

[bigconornash]

Hawks coach Mitchell explains decision to drop top 10 draft pick

“I can’t believe he has been dropped.”

www.sen.com.au

 

[tommyk72]

I have tipped the hawks this week. Whats the word for this year... BELIEVE

I see you’ve been watching Ted Lasso.

 

[TheFourPillars]

I see you’ve been watching Ted Lasso.

 

[Kanga Commando]

This forum is quite a funny read
An opinion forum where posters cop it for having an opinion
And people send me messages wondering why I’m quiet nowadays
Sheesh

But you dont understand. my guy is elite. and his mate. and his brother. they are hawthorn supporters and now they are elite. at hawthorn. you should just P!ss off and barrack for the *scum.
I mean, you call yourself a supporter but dont even know who is elite. we are elite. you are not. so there. go back to your hole...
/sarcasm

Agree totally.

 

[Yardie]

Have I accidentally gone to the wrong forum. Is this what it is like on the * or tiggie forum....?

 

[HawthornHawk]

Can't wait to see how Seamus goes tomorrow, 3 good performances in a row at AFL level would be some achievement.

I wonder if they'll give him the job on Weightman

 

[blackheart]

This forum is quite a funny read
An opinion forum where posters cop it for having an opinion
And people send me messages wondering why I’m quiet nowadays
Sheesh

Popularity Jones over here

 

[MasterSamurai]

Ok, here's the Denver checklist for improvement
1. İntercept marking - no
2. Chain of possessions involvment - no
3. Helping a teammate who gets involved up the ground by covering for him - no
4. Providing rebound - no
5. Young - yes
6. Future plans - definitely

Neither his future or the current season is old , so let's just chill out. İn today's game it's extremely difficult to be a KP size player , even as a frwd, as I mentioned a few pages back, time and talent is on his side, once he has a breakout game or two, he'll be entrenched in the back 6.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

I used to love going to work of a Monday morning and hearing dickheads say to me 'oh I see Cyril only had 10 disposals' as though they were some kind of genius who when I said to them 'did you actually watch the game?' would sheepishly admit they hadn't.

I'm not sure you can equate a 10 possession, 3 goal game from Cyril to a 3 possession DGB game.

And I'm sure that when Cyril had a 3 possession game it would be a pretty ordinary game by his standards.

What you are by default saying that if DGB had a good game on the weekend with a 3 possession game then he can reproduce the same output every week and consider that a satisfactory output?

We need to stay to benchmark all our players against industry standards.

It's why our midfield is doing much better now, players like Nash, Worpel, Newk are pumping out numbers not to dissimilar to those from prime midfields like Melbourne, Bulldogs, etc.

Now we need to make sure our forward line, back line and rucks lift their output as well.

There is nothing to controversial about this viewpoint, I feel like Sam is thinking very much along the same lines given the recent ins and outs.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

I'm not sure you can equate a 10 possession, 3 goal game from Cyril to a 3 possession DGB game.

And I'm sure that when Cyril had a 3 possession game it would be a pretty ordinary game by his standards.

What you are by default saying that if DGB had a good game on the weekend with a 3 possession game then he can reproduce the same output every week and consider that a satisfactory output?

We need to stay to benchmark all our players against industry standards.

It's why our midfield is doing much better now, players like Nash, Worpel, Newk are pumping out numbers not to dissimilar to those from prime midfields like Melbourne, Bulldogs, etc.

Now we need to make sure our forward line, back line and rucks lift their output as well.

There is nothing to controversial about this viewpoint, I feel like Sam is thinking very much along the same lines given the recent ins and outs.

I was just sharing an aside about oppo supporters silly comments about Cyril. You've chosen to read way too much into it.

 

[bigmaxi]

I agree DGB has things to work on but Stratts was a 21yo when recruited to the hawks having played 3 years at East Perth before coming over. He was 24 yo in year 3 but at 21, hadn't even made an AFL list but persisted in WA, finally mading it after filling out a bit and becoming more confident with his abilities.

Hopefully DGB can do the same over the next 3 years, cement his place in the side and play every game.

If the coaches deem him surplus to requirements, so be it but everyone needs to be backed in while on the list to make the team better, going back to BHH to improve what deficiencies they have been asked to improve and have that opportunity to get back into the AFL side.

Plenty of guys did their apprenticeship and became fine players for it.

Our current coach for one, or an old favorite Mr M Tuck.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

 

[HawthornHawk]

Neither his future or the current season is old , so let's just chill out. İn today's game it's extremely difficult to be a KP size player , even as a frwd, as I mentioned a few pages back, time and talent is on his side, once he has a breakout game or two, he'll be entrenched in the back 6.

I agree, but I just worry that taking him out of the side so quickly after bringing him in will dent his confidence. I'd prefer to see him work on these things alongside Sis at senior level.

 

[hawkman]

Hawks coach Mitchell explains decision to drop top 10 draft pick

“I can’t believe he has been dropped.”

www.sen.com.au

Surprised Kane didn't ask him about DGB since he normally asks about him every time he is on

 

[KermitJagger]

I'm not sure you can equate a 10 possession, 3 goal game from Cyril to a 3 possession DGB game.

And I'm sure that when Cyril had a 3 possession game it would be a pretty ordinary game by his standards.

What you are by default saying that if DGB had a good game on the weekend with a 3 possession game then he can reproduce the same output every week and consider that a satisfactory output?

We need to stay to benchmark all our players against industry standards.

It's why our midfield is doing much better now, players like Nash, Worpel, Newk are pumping out numbers not to dissimilar to those from prime midfields like Melbourne, Bulldogs, etc.

Now we need to make sure our forward line, back line and rucks lift their output as well.

There is nothing to controversial about this viewpoint, I feel like Sam is thinking very much along the same lines given the recent ins and outs.

I'm going to make one more post on this and then I'm out completely, it's not worth the frustration. Mostly because this idea of benchmarking basic stats against other players is nonsense that I don't even want to get into, and that the whole argument you keep making of "well you thought Denver played his role well, that must mean you'd be happy for him to have 3 disposals every game" is so disingenuous it hurts.

AFL players, when they come into a team, perform a role. They either fail to meet, meet, or exceed expectations for that one role. Someone like Sicily exceeds expectations because he is able to defend, he's able to provide rebound and he's able to intercept. Someone like Morrison meets expectations because he performs his role generally to the same standard every game, and someone like Kosi has recently failed to meet expectations because he wasn't able to impact games as a key forward.

Players will generally stay in the team if they meet or exceed expectations, but are generally given leeway if they fail to meet expectations depending on previous form or availability of other players. The role is the expectation of what that player will do in a game, and occasionally that doesn't reflect for a layperson when it comes to disposals, goals, marks or whatever else. That's the reason why MacDonald was dopped on the weekend, despite looking like he had a reasonably good game on the stat sheet. Similar for Hartung a few years back, Shiels last year, Scrim at the start of this year - sometimes good games on the stat sheet do not translate into the expected role being fulfilled for the coaches. On the flip side, just off the top of my head Dylan Grimes, Ben Stratton, Cyril, Nash most recently are great examples of poor games on the stat sheet translating to roles completed well or even exceeded.

Players may not stay in the team even if they're meeting expectations, if another option presents itself as potentially better for that role. Mitchell Lewis supplanting Roughead is a good example, Langford and Sewell is another, Isaac Smith / Brad Hill and Clinton Young / Savage, Breust and Osborne. You get the gist. The same thing just happened with DGB and Weddle.

No one is saying that they would be happy for Denver to have a game like he did on the weekend in perpetuity, just that he played his base role well enough and it would be perfectly fine to persevere with a young and developing player having that type of game with the expectation that he continues to improve. They're also noting that measuring impact by the stat sheet is flawed, particularly when the role played is not in itself stat heavy.

 

[Davo-27]

I'm not sure you can equate a 10 possession, 3 goal game from Cyril to a 3 possession DGB game.

And I'm sure that when Cyril had a 3 possession game it would be a pretty ordinary game by his standards.

What you are by default saying that if DGB had a good game on the weekend with a 3 possession game then he can reproduce the same output every week and consider that a satisfactory output?

We need to stay to benchmark all our players against industry standards.

It's why our midfield is doing much better now, players like Nash, Worpel, Newk are pumping out numbers not to dissimilar to those from prime midfields like Melbourne, Bulldogs, etc.

Now we need to make sure our forward line, back line and rucks lift their output as well.

There is nothing to controversial about this viewpoint, I feel like Sam is thinking very much along the same lines given the recent ins and outs.

Cyril averaged 1 1/2 goals a game, a 3 goal game was a great game by his standards, he wasn't a finisher, he was mostly a pressure forward, I'm sure you know this even though you characterised his normal performance as kicking 3 goals

DGB copped a knock, played sore

The case with DGB seems to be that he is a product of a weak covid affected draft, he was an Intercepting defender as a junior who at the champs played the Sicily/Jeremy McGovern role and at Swan Dist played more the classic man up defender role, he has not put on enough weight to play that role at AFL level, if you watch the Adelaide game he seems half the width of Tex Walker and Fogarty, meaning he has no impact on packs, wrestling or spoiling attempts, he needs to get bigger or play a role that doesn't expose his current small frame imo, which is why I prefer Blanck as he has the frame and physical impact that is needed, like Frost and Sicily, also fans seem to look for someone to blame when we get absolutely smashed, instead of looking at the real issues like turn overs and a game style of going sideways, they blame the poor defenders who get burned by the shit turnovers that leaves them with their pants down and then they cop ridiculous criticism because some flanker or idiot mid turned it over doing a hospital or slow handball.....

 

[Slainte]

If you're happy to go back and give yourself a pat on the back for things you've (tenuously) got right, does that mean it's free game for someone to trawl through your post history and highlight all the bad takes?

As you wish. Not something I could be bothered doing but each to his own jouissance.

 

[Billyc]

I'm not sure you can equate a 10 possession, 3 goal game from Cyril to a 3 possession DGB game.

And I'm sure that when Cyril had a 3 possession game it would be a pretty ordinary game by his standards.

What you are by default saying that if DGB had a good game on the weekend with a 3 possession game then he can reproduce the same output every week and consider that a satisfactory output?

We need to stay to benchmark all our players against industry standards.

It's why our midfield is doing much better now, players like Nash, Worpel, Newk are pumping out numbers not to dissimilar to those from prime midfields like Melbourne, Bulldogs, etc.

Now we need to make sure our forward line, back line and rucks lift their output as well.

There is nothing to controversial about this viewpoint, I feel like Sam is thinking very much along the same lines given the recent ins and outs.

Perversely, it has proven very controversial on here to suggest that a 3 possession, 0 tackle game resulting in omission from the 18th placed side wasn't a good performance.

 

[SJT76]

My 2c re DGB (because what we need are more posts on this topic from people with as little football knowledge or inside knowledge as me):

• he was previously going too hard on the rebound and having goals kicked on him
• he went back to BH and improved his defensive side
• he got promoted and did a good job defensively (no goals and fewest marks this season or last to his opponent)
• but he got the balance wrong and was too defensive and did not intercept enough
• he is going back to BH to work on it

So, he can do both parts of his job, but hasn’t got the balance right yet. Give him time. When he comes good, he will be excellent

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Perversely, it has proven very controversial on here to suggest that a 3 possession, 0 tackle game resulting in omission from the 18th placed side wasn't a good performance.

I mean, if you just ignore the rationale multiple posters have provided for that, yes I'm sure it looks that way to you.

 

[Lawsy]

I'm not sure you can equate a 10 possession, 3 goal game from Cyril to a 3 possession DGB game.

And I'm sure that when Cyril had a 3 possession game it would be a pretty ordinary game by his standards.

What you are by default saying that if DGB had a good game on the weekend with a 3 possession game then he can reproduce the same output every week and consider that a satisfactory output?

We need to stay to benchmark all our players against industry standards.

It's why our midfield is doing much better now, players like Nash, Worpel, Newk are pumping out numbers not to dissimilar to those from prime midfields like Melbourne, Bulldogs, etc.

Now we need to make sure our forward line, back line and rucks lift their output as well.

There is nothing to controversial about this viewpoint, I feel like Sam is thinking very much along the same lines given the recent ins and outs.

The whole DGB analysis is a bit tired. It was a 10 vs 3 possession game that you added in 3 goals for the forward. The goals you added make a huge difference to your observation.

DGB had a poor statistical game. No doubt about it. But his opponent in Thilthorpe had only 2 more, a total of 5, in the forward half of the ground for the entire game. For a defender, despite not offering anything offensively, that is a win every day of the week. If Fergus, as the 3rd tall, only has 5 forward half possessions this week we are not going to say he won his position unless he kicks goals, which Thilthorpe didn't. He didn't create any opportunities for his teammates either. If Thilthorpe puts up another game like that, I'll bet he has a spell too but will be given feedback on how to be better for the team.

Stats aren't everything, particularly without context either.

Why are our mids putting up better numbers as you say? Our much maligned ruckman is giving them first opportunity more often than not would contribute significantly to that I'd imagine.

Why is F50 output down or needing to lift? We have no key forward to kick to so the 'experts' look at the stats and say Hawthorn has huge problems retaining the ball in F50, last for F50 marks etc. This then sees transition from our F50 to D50 very easily and the backline is under pressure. If we can see a 20% increase in retention in F50, we'll se better 'stats' all over the ground but not necessarily better football.

As you say, it isn't controversial, I agree, but the changes were for what we all hope is a better team. Day, Lewis and Ward are all best 12, Ramsden will hopefully offer more than Meek as a Fwd/Ruck and Weddle will definitely offer more offensive output than DGB but can he shut down either JUH or Lobb as DGB did to Thilthorpe?

 

[tl92]

The coaches have basic expectations of a player and their role. You spent weeks in shocked denial that Scrimshaw might have been a bit out of favour because he was expected to do a little bit of defensive work to stay in the side, which is important... as a defender.

I thought DGB did the core part of his role well, under a bit of duress considering the hammering he got to his ribs early on, but I can also understand that even a player who gets their job done is going to be at risk when someone like Weddle is playing multiple classes above in the VFL.

You're the definition of a box score fan. Any time a player doesn't hit some arbitrary disposal count they're a target.

Interestingly Simon Crawshay is an anagram for ‘Onya Scrimshaw’