Saints v Pies: The Aftermath

[Rough_Edges]

Seems like I'm in the minority here and I've been a staunch defender of Billy on here but I was disappointed with him tonight.

He's not going to play against many other #1 rucks that are younger/as young as him and not way bigger than him.

I thought it was an opportunity for him to really get on top in the ruck and in the end I think Grundy took the chocolates.

We know he isn't great around the ground but I was disappointed how easily Grundy found it.

23 touches, 5 uncontested marks, 7 clearances and a goal for Grundy.

Longer had 9 touches, 1 uncontested mark, 3 clearances.

Both had similar hit outs.

While I understand Billy isn't great around the ground and I (presume) know he is still trying to develop that side of his game I still expect him to nullify the opposition ruckman. Grundy had way to much of an impact.

Despite me being relitively warm on Billy, I still think Hickey is our best ruckman. Maybe not as good in the clinches, but much better across the ground and has a better AFL IQ.

Interested to know what Richos thoughts are on Tom. I know he hasn't been great in the VFL but he doesn't strike me as the kind to dominate at that level.

 

[CALL ME SNAKE]

To be fair to Big Mart he did come on and say quite a few very positive things last week. Both during the game, and after. Praise where praise was due. I noticed it because he doesn't often do it!! But he did.

I love youse all....honest!

Anyway, we were disappointing, but will bounce back. Another game and experience to tick off.

Yes he did Verdun
If you read my post after his reply you can see i was just winding Marty up a bit in response to a light hearted jibe he got me with last week.
im starting to warm to B.M. a little
He's Ying im Yang. Ya cant have one without the other.

 

[L_W_P]

People are seriously wanting to drop Schneider?

He was one of the very few players who actually ran both ways and worked himself into the back half of the ground to try and get the ball going our way. 8 tackles is no joke.

Steven burned us more often than Schneider did.

 

[BrianSpeaking]

i'm puzzled on the next move for mccartin. he certainly learnt the gap between frankston and an AFL mid-tier side. our hand might be forced by roo though. probably keep him in to see how he goes without nerves but my gutfeel is he's better finding his feet in the VFL

No need to be puzzled, his leading patterns at the ground in the second half were brilliant.

Let's remember he is coming from a very low fitness base, was told 40 mins before the bounce he was in the team so had zero mental preparation when most have 5 days and is a baby at 18.

I was super excited by what I saw, he got a few kicks deep in defence in the second half and ran the game out well. I'd play him until Roo comes back then assess it from there.

This boy will be a champion.

 

[Grav]

Don`t know if it is already posted here, but it`s hard to come back from a 2nd quarter like last night. It was mentioned in the other thread that the frees for & against was something like 13 to 1 at one stage. I know that maybe some of those frees were legit, but how come they kept getting the benefit in the 50/50 ones? As for (for put my hand on my head, I`ll get a free) Pendlebury some of the ones he got was damn right laughable. Ok! Umpire rant over, We have got some real honest youngsters out there in the paddock at the moment & quite a few good future players cooling their heals in the two`s, it`s still only 2015 & we aren`t expected to be vying for the premiership `til 2018. IMO the future is looking pretty bloody rosy & in the next few years plus, we are going to be one hell of a journey, I for one am looking forward to it.

 

[BrianSpeaking]

My thoughts FWIW:
2015 is meant to be our worst year in this cycle, so far we are going better than expected.

Two 6 day breaks hurt our young legs, especially with the interstate trip last week.

The first 15 mins were brilliant, it was a sneak peak of what will come in the next 12-24 months as we add more games to the young players.

Fisher shouldn't play next year, has lost a yard.

Longer getting better and even took a few marks, good solid game I thought, his third in a row, I'm pleasantly surprised.

Shenton still crap, jibbed a couple of marking contests, we don't have enough run, we need an elite quick mid through the draft.

NZ will be great for the boys to get away together and refocus, although it involves more plane time.

All in all not an unexpected loss, although the margin was bigger than expected given the conditions, makes it easier when we played heap of kids ala 2002.

aussierulesrules I'll be at Sandy Sunday, usual spot on the Beach Road side wing.

 

[Sunshine Saint]

Disappointing scoreline but it flattered the Pies with them getting an armchair ride from the umpires and the fact we were coming off a tough road trip to GC in humid conditions while the Pies got to rest up at home in Melbourne last week, no surprise they looked fresher than us after quarter time.

That being said it was still disappointing to drop off and lose as badly as we did and too many of our guys went missing.

Some positives though;

Armitage continues to lead the way with another great game, really stepped up as captain in Riewoldt's absence.

Roberton has got back to his good form from a couple of years ago, was probably our best defender and gave us good rebound to set up our attacks.

Savage has turned into a boom recruit for us when he looked like a bust 12 months ago.

Some of our youngsters like Longer, Sinclair and Dunstan were very good early but faded, they'll be guns when they get more miles in the legs.

McCartin didn't set the world on fire in his debut but did some good things, he got in the right positions to mark the ball and even when he fumbled was quick to regain the ball at ground level and get it to our advantage. Like a good young colt he'll be better for the run.

Not the end of the world losing tonight and I think we can bounce back with a win against Carlton next week, especially if we can get Riewoldt and Montagna back and I wouldn't mind seeing Hickey in for Longer and Templeton or Minchington in for Saad, Lonie, Schneider or Sinclair to give them a spell and get some fresh legs in the team.

We lost because we weren't good enough on the night. We couldn't keep up, or replicate the whole game intensity of the Gold Coast match. We didn't lose because of poor umpiring, or the non existent humidity last week on the Gold Coast.

 

[Rough_Edges]

Agree we were comfortably beaten but the umpires certainly didn't help when the game was still close in the second.

 

[Rors]

So Hayes would have multiple weeks in a row at 40% and no-one would bat an eyelid, but Schneider's -9% on Armitage from a lower sample size is unforgivable (let's just conveniently forget the fact it's a legitimately wet night [none of this dome dew bullshit people used to excuse Riewoldt's set shot kicking for years]).

When you have some peanut consistently giving it over the course of last year & into this year that Armo & Steven have poor disposal (even though they are genuine mids whom usually have a lower eff %), yet sticking up for Schneider's 'very good game' where he went at only 60% & praising him cos he had 7 tackles.... It can be enough to make you year your hair out.

2 simple missed shots & a god awful switch kick to the corridor that resulted in a goal to Collingwood.... Well, there's 3 ineffective kicks out of his 11....

For an outside player to go at 60% eff is rather poor, surely people see that

 

[Sunshine Saint]

Well done at making me post for the first time in I think about 4 years, and probably still one of my first 5-10 posts, but did you actually watch the game? It's become very clear that the champion data version of effective disposals is very different than most people actually see, and this seems to be one of those cases of someone just basing things off stats and not what they actually saw.

most of the time when I saw Schneider get the ball tonight he thought he had twice as much time as he he actually did and his disposals were while being tackled. Most of his handballs were certainly not clearances, they were getting the **** rid of the ball because he had to. All you seem to be talking about is stats, but can you bring up some certain examples of good things he did?

Welcome back, especially when you are a voice of reason. Agree with you, Schneider should be used like the old race horse, that is there to help the others with training and to steady them down before games. He shouldn't be out of the track. Not just his shocking centre the ball to a pack of Collingwood players kick, that resulted in a goal, but the fact that he is a classic example of a very good player, that has lost speed, decision making, who is playing for the free, with cheap shots when he can.

Have admired Schneider and appreciate what a valuable servant he has been for the club, but would be happy for him to be sent back to Sandringham.

 

[Rough_Edges]

When you have some peanut consistently giving it over the course of last year & into this year that Armo & Steven have poor disposal (even though they are genuine mids whom usually have a lower eff %), yet sticking up for Schneider's 'very good game' where he went at only 60% & praising him cos he had 7 tackles.... It can be enough to make you year your hair out.

2 simple missed shots & a god awful switch kick to the corridor that resulted in a goal to Collingwood.... Well, there's 3 ineffective kicks out of his 11....

For an outside player to go at 60% eff is rather poor, surely people see that

That "outside player" also had 13 contested possessions.

Sure, he made a few blues kicking the footy - who didn't?

But I think we can be almost certain a player who had 28 touches and 7 tackles won't be getting dropped next week.

 

[FlyingSledghamer]

Guys im curious does anyone know the age stats for last night? Avg Age / Avg games played between the 2 teams?

We got slaughtered on the Inside 50s. During the game, when i checked it was like a -50 differential which is really ridiculous.
This is the reality of things. Pressure Acts, Wining Contested ball, Tackling. All the things you need to do well for 4 quaters to be a good side. They did it well, we did it very poorly.. Young inexperienced team. Very greasy conditions. Pies applied tge right type of pressure and our players panic, lost their structures. Huge learning curve for us.

 

[bird_man]

We still have a long way to go until we are competetive, at least consistently.... Lesson learnt, hopefully the boys move on and are better for it .

Skills, even in the first qtr were poor. We had plenty of players getting lots of the footy but spraying it.

Run stopped after half time.

Not the ideal night for McCarin to debut and he looked nervous. One good sign is his leading patterns were really good. He will be better for the run and will play a better game next week against Carlton.

 

[Rough_Edges]

Welcome back, especially when you are a voice of reason. Agree with you, Schneider should like the old race horse that is used to help the others with training and to steady them down before games. He shouldn't be out of the field. Not just his shocking centre the ball to a pack of Collingwood players kick, that resulted in a goal, but the fact that he is a classic example of a very good player, that has lost speed, decision making, who is playing for the free, with cheap shots when he can.

Have admired Schneider and appreciate what a valuable servant he has been for the club, but would be happy for him to be sent back to Sandringham.

Lol it's funny how if Shenton or Schneider make a blue, we make sure we really drive the point home....

However if one of the board favourites is burning the footy it isn't mentioned

Lonie went at 40% last week
Newnes went at 60% last week.

Billings went at 57% this week. Savage went at 55%.

Schneider was one of our best in round 1, and was again one or our best today.

 

[Sunshine Saint]

Lol it's funny how if Shenton or Schneider make a blue, we make sure we really drive the point home....

However if one of the board favourites is burning the footy it isn't mentioned

Lonie went at 40% last week
Newnes went at 60% last week.

Billings went at 57% this week. Savage went at 55%.

Schneider was one of our best in round 1, and was again one or our best today.

In all respect if you look back at my posting history, I don't take my comments from what is the flavour of the month, but rather as I see it, rightly or wrongly.

Jack Lonie is 18 with 2 games, Jack Newnes is 22 with 50 games, whereas Adam Schneider is 31 (in 3 weeks) with 215 games. You are seriously expecting that an 18 or 22 year old should be judged in the same vein as a 13 year veteran?

Schneider's days in the sun have long gone. I can see that we can and will carry some older players due to what they bring to the team, with on field leadership, direction and position that they play, but don't believe that of Schneider. Didn't see value in him being retained last year and even less with him getting match time this year.

 

[Rough_Edges]

Guys im curious does anyone know the age stats for last night? Avg Age / Avg games played between the 2 teams?

We got slaughtered on the Inside 50s. During the game, when i checked it was like a -50 differential which is really ridiculous.
This is the reality of things. Pressure Acts, Wining Contested ball, Tackling. All the things you need to do well for 4 quaters to be a good side. They did it well, we did it very poorly.. Young inexperienced team. Very greasy conditions. Pies applied tge right type of pressure and our players panic, lost their structures. Huge learning curve for us.

When you look at the stats, we really shouldn't of lost by as much as we did.

The Pies just scored so easily all night, it was like watching us from last year.

They got it into their fifty to easily and along with that when they went in it was often under no pressure.

-16 in contested possessions, +9 in uncontested possessions, -9 clearances, +7 marks, -4 in tackles. You know, all fairly even.

However we had 21 more clangers and the pies went inside fifty 77 times compared to our 42.

That's a ridiculous number.

For comparisons sakes, GC went in 50 times and GWS went in 52.

(Also interested in the age stats if anyone can find them)

 

[Rough_Edges]

In all respect if you look back at my posting history, I don't take my comments from what is the flavour of the month, but rather as I see it, rightly or wrongly.

Jack Lonie is 18 with 2 games, Jack Newnes is 22 with 50 games, whereas Adam Schneider is 31 (in 3 weeks) with 215 games. You are seriously expecting that an 18 or 22 year old should be judged in the same vein as a 13 year veteran?

Schneider's days in the sun have long gone. I can see that we can and will carry some older players due to what they bring to the team, with on field leadership, direction and position that they play, but don't believe that of Schneider. Didn't see value in him being retained last year and even less with him getting match time this year.

i

I understand what you're saying, and I hope that it was fairly obvious that I went over the top to make a point. The want to just "play the kids" is a feeling we often feel - however we need to have experience out on the field. Especially if they're playing good football - which Schneider is.

I don't think we can simply gift our kids games, they need to earn them and need to be ready. I think teams like Geelong and Sydney have shown this is the best way, over the years.

Teams like Melbourne who just threw all the kids in, it just didn't work for them. These were highly rated kids and the majority of them just fizzed out.

If next week Schneider has a poor game, and say DMac has a blinder in the VFL for the third week in a row, maybe consider it then. However taking one of our only senior players who is playing well would be a bad move, IMO.

 

[L_W_P]

When you have some peanut consistently giving it over the course of last year & into this year that Armo & Steven have poor disposal (even though they are genuine mids whom usually have a lower eff %), yet sticking up for Schneider's 'very good game' where he went at only 60% & praising him cos he had 7 tackles.... It can be enough to make you year your hair out.

2 simple missed shots & a god awful switch kick to the corridor that resulted in a goal to Collingwood.... Well, there's 3 ineffective kicks out of his 11....

For an outside player to go at 60% eff is rather poor, surely people see that

If we are talking "God Awful" kicks can I nominate dropping membrey for that howler of a switch at the City end? Had Fisher in 30m of space and put it lace out to Cloke straight in front. Cloke missed but it doesn't excuse the terrible descision and execution.

 

[Sunshine Saint]

i

I understand what you're saying, and I hope that it was fairly obvious that I went over the top to make a point. The want to just "play the kids" is a feeling we often feel - however we need to have experience out on the field. Especially if they're playing good football - which Schneider is.

I don't think we can simply gift our kids games, they need to earn them and need to be ready. I think teams like Geelong and Sydney have shown this is the best way, over the years.

Teams like Melbourne who just threw all the kids in, it just didn't work for them. These were highly rated kids and the majority of them just fizzed out.

If next week Schneider has a poor game, and say DMac has a blinder in the VFL for the third week in a row, maybe consider it then. However taking one of our only senior players who is playing well would be a bad move, IMO.

Ok got it now. The initial post is to be read in the light that you exaggerate to make a point.

Having learned that, I will take your next comments, that any criticisms of Schneider mean that we want to just 'play the kids' and 'gift our kids games', as further exaggeration, rather than as they were written, which were a criticism of Schneider and that his time as a senior player has passed.

 

[Rors]

If we are talking "God Awful" kicks can I nominate dropping membrey for that howler of a switch at the City end? Had Fisher in 30m of space and put it lace out to Cloke straight in front. Cloke missed but it doesn't excuse the terrible descision and execution.

Rofl.... I'd expect a 20 yr old veteran of just 4 AFL games to make a blue here & there, but I don't expect a 31 yr old 200+ game veteran to do the same

Have some perspective please

 

[Rough_Edges]

Ok got it now. The initial post is to be read in the light that you exaggerate to make a point.

Having learned that, I will take your next comments, that any criticisms of Schneider mean that we want to just 'play the kids' and 'gift our kids games', as further exaggeration, rather than as they were written, which were a criticism of Schneider and that his time as a senior player has passed.

No need to get narky because we have a difference of opinion

 

[Rors]

On a positive note, how ****ing good is Armo going ATM!? The man is a beast & has stepped into Lenny's shoes almost to the extent that Lenny hasn't left yet. The hardness, pressure & drive coming from Armo is a credit to himself will be a huge barometer for us for the rest of the season. Very happy to have another such competitive warrior stand up to fill a void left by one of our club faves in Lenny.

Keep it up Armo!

 

[L_W_P]

Rofl.... I'd expect a 20 yr old veteran of just 4 AFL games to make a blue here & there, but I don't expect a 31 yr old 200+ game veteran to do the same

Have some perspective please

The point is, nobody is perfect. Schneider did more than enough to earn his spot and he was a long way from our worst last night. I don't care how old he is, he is in our best 22 right now.

To drop him due to his age in order to develop a kid means we would be tanking. It's even more insane to say we need his spot to develop a kid when we already had Dunstan, Billings, Longer, Bruce, Membrey, McCartin, Wright, Lonie and Sinclair out on the park. Not to mention Newnes and Shenton who are both pretty inexperienced in the scheme of things.

That's basically half of our side who are in an 'early development' phase of their careers.

To say that Schneider doesn't deserve a game because of his disposal last night is just wrong. Jack Steven and Shane Savage are both senior player and both had a lower DE %. Should we drop Savage and give McKenzie his spot at half back for development?

 

[Stewart66]

My thoughts FWIW:
2015 is meant to be our worst year in this cycle, so far we are going better than expected.

Two 6 day breaks hurt our young legs, especially with the interstate trip last week.

The first 15 mins were brilliant, it was a sneak peak of what will come in the next 12-24 months as we add more games to the young players.

Fisher shouldn't play next year, has lost a yard.

Longer getting better and even took a few marks, good solid game I thought, his third in a row, I'm pleasantly surprised.

Shenton still crap, jibbed a couple of marking contests, we don't have enough run, we need an elite quick mid through the draft.

NZ will be great for the boys to get away together and refocus, although it involves more plane time.

All in all not an unexpected loss, although the margin was bigger than expected given the conditions, makes it easier when we played heap of kids ala 2002.

aussierulesrules I'll be at Sandy Sunday, usual spot on the Beach Road side wing.

Agree with comments excited to see the young guys go well early then they got fatigued
Fisher & Dempster great servants of club but really looking forward not back.
Excited to see Membrey show something
Excited to see Sinclair show something again
Excited to see Dunstan continually working both ways
Excited to see Longer still developing each game.
Excited to see Newnes getting more confident with every game
Excited to see Savage consistently off half back .



Gotta laugh when people knock McCartin listened to Wayne Carey & Jono Brown talk about their early games
Brown ... Hopeless
Carey ....Taken off touched the ball very few times.

 

[Big Mart]

Hilarious views on Schnieder. I think people are just annoyed because he's in the side. But are not actually looking at overall outpit.
For instance saying he played outside when half of his touches were contested?

First 2 games
50poss
9 tackles
2 goals

If he isn't in the side and Templeton, Curren, Minchinton or DMac are in... We lose by more...
If they are not as good.. They don't play. If any of those players got 28 we'd flip out.

Question
If Membrey cannot kick because he's played only 4 games... How did he kick that goal from 50?

Experience effects decision making... Not sure how it effects executing a skill? That has more to do with technique, talent and preparation.
Roo and Cloke have played a bit... They miss simple goals.