Mega Thread Senior Coach Discussion - Neeld v the alternatives

[jhong]

i wonder how much of an effort certain players gave to buy in.

 

[Oscarman]

i wonder how much of an effort certain players gave to buy in.

Not much. They preferred it when they ran the place.

 

[jhong]

Not much. They preferred it when they ran the place.

well it looks like they are not running the place anymore ,about time. Geez if they think Neeld is a hard taskmaster Barrassi would have had them curled up in the foetal position .

 

[HankScorpio7]

Not much. They preferred it when they ran the place.

Is there any real evidence that the players were running the place? Nobody listened when they pointed finger at Schwab & Connolly. Neeld can play the tough guy all he wants but if it loses the players he can play it from the unemployment queue. I can only go by Neeld's public persona and statements in saying he prefers the stick to the carrot

 

[SabreOfParadise]

I think the assumption that the "tail is wagging the dog is overplayed". I think that AFL level footballers are competitive by nature, like pretty much all top level athletes. Normal people in normal jobs also revolt by working to rule, stealing stationery, don't cooperate etc... when they are managed incompetently, be that by team leads or the executive.

While footballers have less excuse (pride in the jumper) and work on the public stage, they are human, mostly and are subject to the same emotional impulses as the rest of us. I just don't think you need to do much to motivate players, you just have to not de-motivate them.

I can't fathom how Beamer, who grew up a fan of the Dees could turn from 2011 B&F (for what it's worth) to a sulking dud in 2012 only to be reborn at Brisbane, punishing us in 2013. He might be a precious sook, but the bottom line is that he is happy and motivated at Brisbane. How much do we miss a happy and motivated Beamer this season?

We hired a callow coach that didn't have the experience to manage the different personalities that he was presented with. His drill sergeant my-way-or-highway approach would be fine in some situations (if we had young players that were ready to step up), but he clearly doesn't have the gravitas to pull it off - at least with the senior players and we lost some good talent out the door needlessly. If he hasn't got players buying into his plan 18 months in, I don't see why it will happen in the future.

We needed an experienced coach in 2011 (yay, hindsight) and still do now, the sooner the better before we lose more as-yet untapped talent(Watts, Frawley).

 

[Tulip]

I think the assumption that the "tail is wagging the dog is overplayed". I think that AFL level footballers are competitive by nature, like pretty much all top level athletes. Normal people in normal jobs also revolt by working to rule, stealing stationery, don't cooperate etc... when they are managed incompetently, be that by team leads or the executive.

While footballers have less excuse (pride in the jumper) and work on the public stage, they are human, mostly and are subject to the same emotional impulses as the rest of us. I just don't think you need to do much to motivate players, you just have to not de-motivate them.

I can't fathom how Beamer, who grew up a fan of the Dees could turn from 2011 B&F (for what it's worth) to a sulking dud in 2012 only to be reborn at Brisbane, punishing us in 2013. He might be a precious sook, but the bottom line is that he is happy and motivated at Brisbane. How much do we miss a happy and motivated Beamer this season?

We hired a callow coach that didn't have the experience to manage the different personalities that he was presented with. His drill sergeant my-way-or-highway approach would be fine in some situations (if we had young players that were ready to step up), but he clearly doesn't have the gravitas to pull it off - at least with the senior players and we lost some good talent out the door needlessly. If he hasn't got players buying into his plan 18 months in, I don't see why it will happen in the future.

We needed an experienced coach in 2011 (yay, hindsight) and still do now, the sooner the better before we lose more as-yet untapped talent(Watts, Frawley).

I don't see how anybody could argue with the bulk of this post. Summed up my feelings, fantastic writeup.

If anybody points out Beamer's down game last weekend, I'll flip. He's having an awesome season and was invaluable experience that Neeld simply let go.

 

[Oscarman]

Is there any real evidence that the players were running the place?

All we really have is anecdotal evidence as we are not in the inner sanctum, but I've heard of a 3km time trial being called off by the players and a couple of things at training that I don't know the specifics of.

Thing is, if players aren't buying what Neeld is selling, either he goes or they go, and if Neeld is at the club next year then we will know who they are by the time the draft rolls around.

 

[Viney]

I don't see how anybody could argue with the bulk of this post. Summed up my feelings, fantastic writeup.

If anybody points out Beamer's down game last weekend, I'll flip. He's having an awesome season and was invaluable experience that Neeld simply let go.

I don't doubt we could do with the experience of a Moloney right now, but awesome season?

I think he started with a flash in the NAB cup, has 1 best on (against us) a couple of good games, and a couple of sub par games

I'd call it an average season to date

 

[Captain Jack]

I think the assumption that the "tail is wagging the dog is overplayed". I think that AFL level footballers are competitive by nature, like pretty much all top level athletes. Normal people in normal jobs also revolt by working to rule, stealing stationery, don't cooperate etc... when they are managed incompetently, be that by team leads or the executive.

While footballers have less excuse (pride in the jumper) and work on the public stage, they are human, mostly and are subject to the same emotional impulses as the rest of us. I just don't think you need to do much to motivate players, you just have to not de-motivate them.

I can't fathom how Beamer, who grew up a fan of the Dees could turn from 2011 B&F (for what it's worth) to a sulking dud in 2012 only to be reborn at Brisbane, punishing us in 2013. He might be a precious sook, but the bottom line is that he is happy and motivated at Brisbane. How much do we miss a happy and motivated Beamer this season?

We hired a callow coach that didn't have the experience to manage the different personalities that he was presented with. His drill sergeant my-way-or-highway approach would be fine in some situations (if we had young players that were ready to step up), but he clearly doesn't have the gravitas to pull it off - at least with the senior players and we lost some good talent out the door needlessly. If he hasn't got players buying into his plan 18 months in, I don't see why it will happen in the future.

We needed an experienced coach in 2011 (yay, hindsight) and still do now, the sooner the better before we lose more as-yet untapped talent(Watts, Frawley).

The new guy! Great post SabreOfParadise, very accurate I think.

Edit - not so new, but still.

 

[Bluelegs]

We needed an experienced coach in 2011 (yay, hindsight) and still do now, the sooner the better before we lose more as-yet untapped talent(Watts, Frawley).

It's not even hindsight. I remember so many Melbourne supporters crying out for an experienced coach after Bailey left, someone who knew how to overhaul a football dept and fix the attitude of the players. The club didn't listen.

 

[SpeciousArgument]

It's not even hindsight. I remember so many Melbourne supporters crying out for an experienced coach after Bailey left, someone who knew how to overhaul a football dept and fix the attitude of the players. The club didn't listen.

How many coaches are out there with experience successfully overhauling an entire list and football department, and of that very short list how many of them are available?

 

[Bluelegs]

How many coaches are out there with experience successfully overhauling an entire list and football department, and of that very short list how many of them are available?

How many were available in 2011? Malthouse, Clarkson, Lyon, Eade, and Roos were all out of contract. Malthouse had his contract with Collingwood that he stepped away from but there was no reason we couldn't pursue him for the following year if we wanted to be bold and use 2012 purely as a development year. Couldn't have gone worse than the actual year did.

At the end of this year, Clarkson, Worsfold, Eade, Williams, and Roos may all be available. Our club has shown itself to have very little ambition when it comes to going after basically anyone though.

 

[Captain Jack]

It's not even hindsight. I remember so many Melbourne supporters crying out for an experienced coach after Bailey left, someone who knew how to overhaul a football dept and fix the attitude of the players. The club didn't listen.

Very true, but why would the supporters have a say in who gets appointed coach?

 

[Bluelegs]

Very true, but why would the supporters have a say in who gets appointed coach?

Well obviously the supporters don't make the decisions for the club but it was pretty obvious considering the state we were in at the end of 2011 that we needed a proven coach to fix our issues. It was negligent of the board to get yet another unproven coach on a whim when Melbourne obviously didn't know how to fix a footy dept or act like a football club at all for that matter.

 

[SabreOfParadise]

The new guy! Great post SabreOfParadise, very accurate I think.

Edit - not so new, but still.

I'll be honest with you I lurk most of the time, but I'm a kiwi and I've never played the game myself - so a lot of the time I haven't got much to offer, but I've seen this coaching merry-go-round stuff with pro sports a lot and the human element is the same across all of them.

 

[SpeciousArgument]

How many were available in 2011? Malthouse, Clarkson, Lyon, Eade, and Roos were all out of contract. Malthouse had his contract with Collingwood that he stepped away from but there was no reason we couldn't pursue him for the following year if we wanted to be bold and use 2012 purely as a development year. Couldn't have gone worse than the actual year did.

At the end of this year, Clarkson, Worsfold, Eade, Williams, and Roos may all be available. Our club has shown itself to have very little ambition when it comes to going after basically anyone though.

IMO you wouldnt want Eade or Lyon (especially at Lyon's price), Roos has been saying he doesnt want to coach since he left the swans (even if your cheque book could get him there do you want someone overhauling your club that is only there to pad their super?) Malthouse i really dont see being interested, so that leaves you with 1 out of that list of 5. Given that the hawks wanted to re sign him do you think your club was ever in the market for Clarkson?

None of which really speaks to what should happen with Neeld right now given what has happened and where the club currently is.

 

[Klyntonius]

How many were available in 2011? Malthouse, Clarkson, Lyon, Eade, and Roos were all out of contract. Malthouse had his contract with Collingwood that he stepped away from but there was no reason we couldn't pursue him for the following year if we wanted to be bold and use 2012 purely as a development year. Couldn't have gone worse than the actual year did.

At the end of this year, Clarkson, Worsfold, Eade, Williams, and Roos are all available. Our club has shown itself to have very little ambition when it comes to going after basically anyone though.

Go coachless through 2012 to get Malthouse? We had a crack at Clarkson and he turned us down because he's not insane, we snoozed on Lyon, enquiring to his management only to be blindsided like everyone else so that was a big miss, Roos wasn't interested in coaching and Eade was damaged goods having just got sacked by the Bulldogs. Compared to this year (rejuvinated Eade, Williams, Ratten, Laidley, Harvey) I don't think the experienced class of 2011 was nearly as realistically gettable. Clarkson isn't available this year, he's contracted til the end of 2014 and Roos is an utter longshot and I think Worsfold the same though assuming the inevitable does happen and Neeld is sacked then I'm sure they will be sounded out anyway.

 

[SpeciousArgument]

Go coachless through 2012 to get Malthouse? We had a crack at Clarkson and he turned us down because he's not insane, we snoozed on Lyon, enquiring to his management only to be blindsided like everyone else so that was a big miss, Roos wasn't interested in coaching and Eade was damaged goods having just got sacked by the Bulldogs. Compared to this year (rejuvinated Eade, Williams, Ratten, Laidley, Harvey) I don't think the experienced class of 2011 was nearly as realistically gettable. Clarkson isn't available this year, he's contracted til the end of 2014 and Roos is an utter longshot and I think Worsfold the same though assuming the inevitable does happen and Neeld is sacked then I'm sure they will be sounded out anyway.

Williams is the only one i see being a likely candidate, and I think he'd be a good fit, but the question is, whats he going to do right that Neeld is currently doing wrong. Its not like he inherited 2008 Geelong list, and as many have said he gave players a year to see what they could contribute and then replaced the ones he didnt find to be up to scratch. Isnt that what you wanted post Bailey? If you wanted what Bailey delivered why call for him to be sacked?

 

[Bluelegs]

IMO you wouldnt want Eade or Lyon (especially at Lyon's price), Roos has been saying he doesnt want to coach since he left the swans (even if your cheque book could get him there do you want someone overhauling your club that is only there to pad their super?) Malthouse i really dont see being interested, so that leaves you with 1 out of that list of 5. Given that the hawks wanted to re sign him do you think your club was ever in the market for Clarkson?

None of which really speaks to what should happen with Neeld right now given what has happened and where the club currently is.

This is why I said our club lacks ambition. "Too expensive" or "They wouldn't be interested" should not be deterrents for the club to go after quality. All of those coaches were there for the taking. A strong club would have gone hard at them even if it might fail. We just flopped, rolled over and started browsing the bargain bin of assistant coaches.

 

[Bluelegs]

Go coachless through 2012 to get Malthouse? We had a crack at Clarkson and he turned us down because he's not insane, we snoozed on Lyon, enquiring to his management only to be blindsided like everyone else so that was a big miss, Roos wasn't interested in coaching and Eade was damaged goods having just got sacked by the Bulldogs. Compared to this year (rejuvinated Eade, Williams, Ratten, Laidley, Harvey) I don't think the experienced class of 2011 was nearly as realistically gettable. Clarkson isn't available this year, he's contracted til the end of 2014 and Roos is an utter longshot and I think Worsfold the same though assuming the inevitable does happen and Neeld is sacked then I'm sure they will be sounded out anyway.

I remember there was the idea that we could have Viney sit in as an interim coach in 2012 while we secured someone good. Similar to Mark Harvey's work at Freo before they went hard for Lyon. Would it have been a waste of a season? Perhaps, but if done correctly and the club focussed entirely on development it couldn't have gone worse than the real 2012 did.

We didn't go hard enough at Clarkson, there was no aggression, just an offer to his manager that Clarkson never had a reason to give two shits about. Lyon was similar, Freo went right for the throat and got their man, we talked to his manager and never got a call back. Roos may not have been interested but it doesn't mean you don't try to make him interested. Eade damaged goods? What does that even mean, we were after an experienced coach, Eade was only a year off a succession of preliminary final appearances.

We let all those options go without a whimper and opted for an untried bloke with a nice endorsement, turned out to be a dud and now where shopping around again. I would have been perfectly happy if I'd seen Melbourne go after as many proven coaches as they could as hard as they could before settling for an untried. At least then I'd know the club had ambition, and aggression.

 

[Klyntonius]

Williams is the only one i see being a likely candidate, and I think he'd be a good fit, but the question is, whats he going to do right that Neeld is currently doing wrong. Its not like he inherited 2008 Geelong list, and as many have said he gave players a year to see what they could contribute and then replaced the ones he didnt find to be up to scratch. Isnt that what you wanted post Bailey? If you wanted what Bailey delivered why call for him to be sacked?

He didn't inherit the Geelong list but the one he has is currently performing worse than the Bailey teams of 2008-09 that were tanking for draft picks. So whatever he's doing it's going horribly wrong.
Ratten (for the current minute) is my current favourite. Our biggest weakness is the midfield and that was Carltons biggest strength. Yes they had the cattle but he was also our mid coach the last time our midfield was of any quality. I can see pretty strong arguments for all five of the candidates I consider likely and would be content with any of them. of course, none of them are a silver bullet to magically propel us to the top of the ladder, major restructuring off field is required as well as further quality additions to the on field too.

 

[Klyntonius]

I remember there was the idea that we could have Viney sit in as an interim coach in 2012 while we secured someone good. Similar to Mark Harvey's work at Freo before they went hard for Lyon. Would it have been a waste of a season? Perhaps, but if done correctly and the club focussed entirely on development it couldn't have gone worse than the real 2012 did.

We didn't go hard enough at Clarkson, there was no aggression, just an offer to his manager that Clarkson never had a reason to give two shits about. Lyon was similar, Freo went right for the throat and got their man, we talked to his manager and never got a call back. Roos may not have been interested but it doesn't mean you don't try to make him interested. Eade damaged goods? What does that even mean, we were after an experienced coach, Eade was only a year off a succession of preliminary final appearances.

We let all those options go without a whimper and opted for an untried bloke with a nice endorsement, turned out to be a dud and now where shopping around again. I would have been perfectly happy if I'd seen Melbourne go after as many proven coaches as they could as hard as they could before settling for an untried. At least then I'd know the club had ambition, and aggression.

Mark Harvey wasn't there as an interim though (5 years!), they decided he wasn't going to take them further and moved on Lyon.

Everything I heard was that we did put an aggressive offer to Clarkson but the reality is he had something to prove with Hawthorn and short of tripling his salary with money we can't afford, he was never going to leave the opportunity of premiership glory for us at that time. Lyon we snoozed on by putting our eggs in the Clarkson basket. Eade had just been sacked by his club which didn't think he was the man to rebuild their list and damaged goods mightn't have been the correct term to use but I'd say that probably wasn't a ringing endorsement of his rebuilding abilities.

When we got Neeld, I was pretty happy like most around here so I'm going to go revisionist and change my opinion of the time. If you thought it had to be someone experienced then that is fine but I don't think any of us foresaw the off field shambles that we've become that would've required an experinced coach to navigate.

Curiously, does anyone have a list of who we did interview in 2011?

 

[SpeciousArgument]

He didn't inherit the Geelong list but the one he has is currently performing worse than the Bailey teams of 2008-09 that were tanking for draft picks. So whatever he's doing it's going horribly wrong.
Ratten (for the current minute) is my current favourite. Our biggest weakness is the midfield and that was Carltons biggest strength. Yes they had the cattle but he was also our mid coach the last time our midfield was of any quality. I can see pretty strong arguments for all five of the candidates I consider likely and would be content with any of them. of course, none of them are a silver bullet to magically propel us to the top of the ladder, major restructuring off field is required as well as further quality additions to the on field too.

Wouldnt that major restructuring under one of your top 5 coaches also likely see a dip in form the way Neelds has?

Im not necessarily pro-Neeld, but i also dont think replacing coaches is always the answer.

 

[SpeciousArgument]

Mark Maclure on 360 framing the issue as the management of the club failing for 20 years and bringing in a rookie coach and asking him to fix the culture that they collectively couldnt fix for 20 years.

 

[wowlace]

He's right but he is still a dick who enjoys the smell of his own farts.