Coach So you want Voss gone? Who will replace him and why would they want to coach Carlton?

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Forget about the ladder. We are 14th but right now, we are 17th in terms of what consitutes a good team. Giants, Hawks and Roos are all capable of playing an exciting brand of football. Each have a diverse midfield capable of moving the ball.

We need an overhaul badly, whether that be coaches, players or both.

 

[JustaBattler]

Forget about the ladder. We are 14th but right now, we are 17th in terms of what consitutes a good team. Giants, Hawks and Roos are all capable of playing an exciting brand of football. Each have a diverse midfield capable of moving the ball.

We need an overhaul badly, whether that be coaches, players or both.

Whilst not challenging the view that the Carlton midfield is not fantastic at transition - I do think that (perhaps) awful transition is as much about lack of forward targets as poor execution.

Not sure that Fisher/Motlop/Durdin/Owies are really finals quality small forwards atm - they arent serious marking targets and they are as a group pretty ordinary pressure players as well.

I think the lack of dangerous alternatives to Charlie and Harry is the #1 reason the team has been easy to defend against.

I would like to see Cuningham and Martin take two of those blokes' positions - for starters.

 

[RAPPA]

Forget about the ladder. We are 14th but right now, we are 17th in terms of what consitutes a good team. Giants, Hawks and Roos are all capable of playing an exciting brand of football. Each have a diverse midfield capable of moving the ball.

We need an overhaul badly, whether that be coaches, players or both.

I'd go so far as to say we are 18th for that metric. Weagles have at least obtained perspective as to where the side is at and where it's heading towards. We remain in a state of shock as to how this group continues to dish up the output on display, devoid of any semblance of ownership or of an identity.

The computer has frozen and we are in need for a force restart.

 

[Osc1]

Whilst not challenging the view that the Carlton midfield is not fantastic at transition - I do think that (perhaps) awful transition is as much about lack of forward targets as poor execution.

Not sure that Fisher/Motlop/Durdin/Owies are really finals quality small forwards atm - they arent serious marking targets and they are as a group pretty ordinary pressure players as well.

I think the lack of dangerous alternatives to Charlie and Harry is the #1 reason the team has been easy to defend against.

I would like to see Cuningham and Martin take two of those blokes' positions - for starters.

This is the thing though. While not necessarily disagreeing with your summation, that quartet played in most of the games last season where we did score heavily. Martin featured in a few games but more so at the end of the season.

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

Extend Voss. Cull the playing list. Thats the real problem.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Whilst not challenging the view that the Carlton midfield is not fantastic at transition - I do think that (perhaps) awful transition is as much about lack of forward targets as poor execution.

Not sure that Fisher/Motlop/Durdin/Owies are really finals quality small forwards atm - they arent serious marking targets and they are as a group pretty ordinary pressure players as well.

I think the lack of dangerous alternatives to Charlie and Harry is the #1 reason the team has been easy to defend against.

I would like to see Cuningham and Martin take two of those blokes' positions - for starters.

I don't think Charlie or Harry make multiple leads to good spots. Silvagni does but he's rarely a target.

I agree that our smalls don't cut the mustard up forward, but they do present as targets. What they don't do is rove the ball front and square like they should. But that's a big problem because our midfield bomb it long at every opportunity so smalls at ground level become vital.

Look at the attributes of our midfield:

Cripps: Fast - No. Strong - Yes. Clearances - Yes. Footskills - No. Defence - No. Marking - Limited. Scoreboard Impact - Average
Kennedy: Fast - No. Strong - Yes. Clearances - Yes. Footskills - Yes. Defence - Limited. Marking - Yes. Scoreboarfd Impact - Yes
Walsh: Fast - Average. Strong - Average. Clearances - Yes. Footskills - Average. Defence - Yes. Marking - Average. Scoreboard Impact - Average.
Hewett: Fast - No. Strong - Yes. Clearances - Yes. Footskills - Average. Defence - Yes. Marking - Average. Scoreboard Impact - No.
Cerra: Fast - No. Strong - Yes. Clearances - Yes. Footskills - Yes. Defence - Yes. Marking - Average. Scoreboard Impact - No.
Fisher: Fast - Average. Strong - No. Clearances - No. Footskills - Average. Defence - No. Marking - No. Scoreboard Impact - Average.
Docherty: Fast - Average. Strong - Yes. Clearances - No. Footskills - Average. Defence - Yes. Marking - Yes. Scoreboard Impact - Average.

People will disagree with some of these but it's not a very well balanced midifeld.

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

I don't think Charlie or Harry make multiple leads to good spots. Silvagni does but he's rarely a target.

I agree that our smalls don't cut the mustard up forward, but they do present as targets. What they don't do is rove the ball front and square like they should. But that's a big problem because our midfield bomb it long at every opportunity so smalls at ground level become vital.

Look at the attributes of our midfield:

Cripps: Fast - No. Strong - Yes. Clearances - Yes. Footskills - No. Defence - No. Marking - Limited. Scoreboard Impact - Average
Kennedy: Fast - No. Strong - Yes. Clearances - Yes. Footskills - Yes. Defence - Limited. Marking - Yes. Scoreboarfd Impact - Yes
Walsh: Fast - Average. Strong - Average. Clearances - Yes. Footskills - Average. Defence - Yes. Marking - Average. Scoreboard Impact - Average.
Hewett: Fast - No. Strong - Yes. Clearances - Yes. Footskills - Average. Defence - Yes. Marking - Average. Scoreboard Impact - No.
Cerra: Fast - No. Strong - Yes. Clearances - Yes. Footskills - Yes. Defence - Yes. Marking - Average. Scoreboard Impact - No.
Fisher: Fast - Average. Strong - No. Clearances - No. Footskills - Average. Defence - No. Marking - No. Scoreboard Impact - Average.
Docherty: Fast - Average. Strong - Yes. Clearances - No. Footskills - Average. Defence - Yes. Marking - Yes. Scoreboard Impact - Average.

People will disagree with some of these but it's not a very well balanced midifeld.

No it is not a well balanced midfield.

 

[GoBlues!]

Whilst not challenging the view that the Carlton midfield is not fantastic at transition - I do think that (perhaps) awful transition is as much about lack of forward targets as poor execution.

Not sure that Fisher/Motlop/Durdin/Owies are really finals quality small forwards atm - they arent serious marking targets and they are as a group pretty ordinary pressure players as well.

I think the lack of dangerous alternatives to Charlie and Harry is the #1 reason the team has been easy to defend against.

I would like to see Cuningham and Martin take two of those blokes' positions - for starters.

Agree, I’ve never been a fan of Durdin, Motlop, Owies and Fisher all playing in the forward line - they don’t apply pressure (Owies possibly) and don’t appear to have crumbing skills. Hard to see what role they play and they seem to be undersized forwards that don’t pose much threat to the opposition.

We’ve persisted with this setup of small forwards for a while, probably due to lack of personnel but it’s hurting the team.

Lack of a genuine 3rd forward (like a Fritch), and not many goals from our midfielders or ruckman makes for an impotent forward setup.

 

[JustaBattler]

I don't think Charlie or Harry make multiple leads to good spots. Silvagni does but he's rarely a target.

I agree that our smalls don't cut the mustard up forward, but they do present as targets. What they don't do is rove the ball front and square like they should. But that's a big problem because our midfield bomb it long at every opportunity so smalls at ground level become vital.

Look at the attributes of our midfield:

Cripps: Fast - No. Strong - Yes. Clearances - Yes. Footskills - No. Defence - No. Marking - Limited. Scoreboard Impact - Average
Kennedy: Fast - No. Strong - Yes. Clearances - Yes. Footskills - Yes. Defence - Limited. Marking - Yes. Scoreboarfd Impact - Yes
Walsh: Fast - Average. Strong - Average. Clearances - Yes. Footskills - Average. Defence - Yes. Marking - Average. Scoreboard Impact - Average.
Hewett: Fast - No. Strong - Yes. Clearances - Yes. Footskills - Average. Defence - Yes. Marking - Average. Scoreboard Impact - No.
Cerra: Fast - No. Strong - Yes. Clearances - Yes. Footskills - Yes. Defence - Yes. Marking - Average. Scoreboard Impact - No.
Fisher: Fast - Average. Strong - No. Clearances - No. Footskills - Average. Defence - No. Marking - No. Scoreboard Impact - Average.
Docherty: Fast - Average. Strong - Yes. Clearances - No. Footskills - Average. Defence - Yes. Marking - Yes. Scoreboard Impact - Average.

People will disagree with some of these but it's not a very well balanced midifeld.

You obviously don't see the lack of around the arc marking ability as a big deal - I do - simply because the best crafted entries come from 40-50 meters out from flanks OR direct to leading forward from the corridor. We ar playing 4 smalls - none of whom can execute decent entries - because they can't get the ball in these key areas of influence- which compounds their other weaknesses.

On the midfielders, here is my take:

On-ballers just have to be 'fast enough' - they don't have to have express speed as a first priority and average disposal is good enough. The problem is that Cripps has below average disposal and I think Hewett/Walsh and even Kennedy are still restricted in their physical ability to play to the standards that they were playing last year - none of them had a pre-season.


The lack of real fitness will impact on form - is why Voss has tried to inject alternatives into midfield duties and the best he has come up with is Docherty - who ahs his own issues as far as form goes.

The midfield lack of kicking ability - is aggravated by the fact that Acres is very suspect and Hollnds has been a first year developing player - we have seen in Cottrell for example how long it takes a developing player to even get to below average kicking ability let alone average....Ed Curnow has struggled with the issue all his career.

So the question is if we agree that teh midfield is unbalanced as far as decent kicking goes - what is the solution? Well the only solution is to add this via alternative players or new players.

So who are the players that can be added to teh midfield mix - currently at Carlton languishing in VFL ? DOw - well fine play Dow he may add a touch of burst run but his #1 wood is his fast hands ( and they are fast) not his kicking or his marking or his goal kicking....again the midfield falls short of real line breaking speed and or real elite level kicking.

I think teh midfield is unbalanced to coin a phrase- but teh ability to fix this is just not there. I can see the forward structure improved if Cuningham and Martin actually get on the park - with Cuningham able to rotate through teh midfield as a first receiver - he is above average in kicking skill as is Martin.

How a list comprised of what it is and where players are regarding fitness / injury - defines both the tyope of game plan that can be played as well as the type of game plan that coaches are forced to go with in order to make the most of what they've got.

Blaming Voss for these issues - is a reach. An understandable reach given all the palaver about making finals - but not when you look at the players he ahs had.

What frustrated me - is that despite all these issues- a better conversion ratio ( ie even 55%) would have seen Carlton win a few of the games recently lost - if not all.


We arent that far away that's what the stats say.

 

[JustaBattler]

This is the thing though. While not necessarily disagreeing with your summation, that quartet played in most of the games last season where we did score heavily. Martin featured in a few games but more so at the end of the season.

A dominant midfield makes everyone look better.....

Last year before the injuries- Carltons' midfield was playing Top4 football - the fab five have been playing without a pre-season under their belts, recovering from 2 back surgeries and a foot surgery and nowhere near their best- Walsh is a shadow of the player he was last year. What is killing the midfield performance is lack of alternatives - people say Dow - well fine even with DOw we are still 2 players short - nto a position where the Club should be coming out of a full rebuild - but that is what you get when you outlayed on LoB/SPS/Dow as 3 top10 picks....and none of Fisher/Philp/Cuningham for one reason or another have made it (al;l first round selections) - and Williams who was supposed to be a mid-rotation - isn't even on the park...

I'll put it another way- if all of Hewett/Kennedy/Walsh/Cripps were as fit s they were last year - Carlton would be positive on the W/L ratio - at least - despite the issues up forward.

 

[jpfalvo]

Aside from overseeing the mismanagement of the list (paying overs for certain players from other clubs) , they have also proved compromised in their assistant and senior coach appointments (in hindsight it was a mistake for Sayers to say categorically we were only interested in a senior experienced coach to replace Teague, we should have at least given Adem Yze and Adam Kingsley a couple of interviews for the sake of having a comprehensive search)

Maybe I am overreacting, I just don't have much faith and trust in this current board and President being able to get our on field teams (both in the AFL and AFLW) successful again.

Prendercast boys, one of which is close to Kingsley has been saying since 2021 that, the club interviewed Kingsley but as a first time coach didnt think he was marketable enough.

They then offered him senior assistant role, but choose to stay on goal.to reach head coach. Hence GWS

Sent from my SM-N981B using Tapatalk

 

[jpfalvo]

Wasn't aware of that, but he certainly has looked very good early on for GWS.

The whole selection process now in hindsight does look a bit clownish, but I certainly don't blame Voss for that, it's all on the board and the selection committee.

As others like myself have said, how can we possibly trust them again to appoint a new coach (if we part ways with Voss) ?

Thats right. Its not Voss fault he got hired.

Decision makers and Brad Lloyd should be first to fall in their swords

Sent from my SM-N981B using Tapatalk

 

[jpfalvo]

Kingsley was never going to get the role once it was public stated that the board wanted an experienced coach.
Even if he was the best candidate.
The coach search went from a headhunting exercise to a face-saving one.
And yet some (most?) people on here were lauding the outcome at the time.

1000% correct.

It was operation Get Clarko. Well known, reported publically and by ITKs

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[jpfalvo]

This year reminds me of Buckleys last year as coach.Horrific game plan moving the ball.Then changed the board,traded some decent players out,then coach targeted some players via trade now look at them.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Yep, and Ben Rutten at Essendon, who they committed to, then sacked as the gameplan became a debacle

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[slashin_velvet]

If we were to sack Voss, I wouldnt directly replace him.

I'd tell the media that we will not have a "head coach" for the remainder of the season, and would also sack any underperforming line coaches.

Each leader in each line will be part of the assistant coaching team, and Docherty is the coach (he's been apprenticing while injured anyway). Weitering, Cripps, Pittonet, Curnow are line coaches for their areas, either as lead or support depending what happens in their lines.

We've let poor player performance dictate what we do with coaches - so let them prove they can go without. Let the players play, or so they say.

 

[Jimmyonesix]

A

Anyone who comes in to replace Voss gets to choose his/her replacements.

No brainer.

Voss didn't

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

A dominant midfield makes everyone look better.....

Last year before the injuries- Carltons' midfield was playing Top4 football - the fab five have been playing without a pre-season under their belts, recovering from 2 back surgeries and a foot surgery and nowhere near their best- Walsh is a shadow of the player he was last year. What is killing the midfield performance is lack of alternatives - people say Dow - well fine even with DOw we are still 2 players short - nto a position where the Club should be coming out of a full rebuild - but that is what you get when you outlayed on LoB/SPS/Dow as 3 top10 picks....and none of Fisher/Philp/Cuningham for one reason or another have made it (al;l first round selections) - and Williams who was supposed to be a mid-rotation - isn't even on the park...

I'll put it another way- if all of Hewett/Kennedy/Walsh/Cripps were as fit s they were last year - Carlton would be positive on the W/L ratio - at least - despite the issues up forward.

Play Dow and Cunners, in the midfield mix every week for the remainder of the year, they may not be the leagues best mids, but it totally changes our dynamic. I see Dave as a 65-35% mid-fwd, won't get involved enough as a pure forward. (Martin )

Ed and Fish- delist, trade.

 

[Sqotty from office works]

Changed my mind on Voss.
Don't think he can coach, but maybe it's time to see out a contract and hope something good happens next year

 

[HarryFlashman]

The mid system goes along way to enhancing the players flaws. Clearing it to the back and then a few handballs has them taking the kick at close to the middle of the ground - a 40-50 meter kick is then needed & it’s then floaty, untargeted, shallow & more prone to being inaccurate.
Use Dow/Crippa to clear forward with supporting run, the kick is then taken forward of centre- only needs to be 30-35 which increase accuracy, comes in flat & hard (which is pretty much impossible to stop if H or Charlie are leading up- both have monstrously long arms) is a deeper entry which is more defendable. It’s a much more sustainable method, allows a greater margin of error, is simpler & plays to our teams strengths.
Crippa/Dow hands & clearance are elite, Cerra/Kennedy/Walsh can receive well, run straight line & are all good enough decision makers to pick the right option for a 35m kick & can all kick it well (Walsh is a little off but it will come back).
It’s really not that complicated we just haven’t been doing it - it’s why I’ve been losing my shit about the game plan & not playing Dow.
Same structure works on rebound too- u just add Doc & Saad kicking it back into Crippa, Kennedy who then feed it to Dow/Walsh/Cerra if the kick back to the middle isn’t on, that when u use wings & run. Wings then hit the same players at CHF (Kennedy is an awesome mark, Crippa is big AF) & repeat the entry pattern.
Biggest margin for error, simplest skill execution, plays to strengths & ultilizes key forwards.
Give me 2-3weeks of that & see if it works

 

[HarryFlashman]

& if we lose the clearance we just need a little bit of pressure & there’s no reason Saad/Doc/Kemp can’t cut off an incoming kick.
All 3 are bloody quick, read the play well & we are then set for rebound.
I have every faith if it’s a deep, rushed entry that Weiters will pick it off- bloke was near unstoppable 1on1 not long ago & reads the ball exceptionally well.
Once again u are playing to everyone’s strengths & playing proactive footy. It is also a demoralizing style (for the other team) we win clearance they are screwed, they win it then it’s getting picked off at HB, if it gets in longer Weiters stops it dead.
They are then forced wide into shit shots at best.
Doesn’t take much to unravel from there (just look at us).

 

[jj1978]

Problem the current board has is that the preso is done next year and Voss' contract expires. Sayers can't be involved in extending Voss' contract next year and it'll be interesting to see what decision eventuates. Interested to see what Sayers leaves as his legacy.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

If this doesn't turn quickly ie next week, Sayers will have no choice once the fans stop turning up in the back half of the year. Its hard to imagine us packing out stadiums with no hope of finals and putting up less than 8 goals each week, once this happens the financial considerations of keeping Voss and this game style become relevant.

 

[sparkybagger]

This club is stuck in no-man's land on so many levels right now but so many big calls to be made. There are expiring contracts or term limits within the next 18 months at Board, CEO, Head Coach, and a big portion of the lower half of our list of OOC this year. The president has mounting legal issues and the results on the field risk driving the supporter base from anger to indifference at a rate of knots.

In situations like this, you need a successful and experienced decision-maker and leader to take control and the obvious candidate for that is Cook. He is the only one who knows what a successful and sustainable football program looks like and the only one at the club who carries any gravitas within the football community.

Secondly, I'd like Lloyd and Voss both sacked ASAP as neither has demonstrated capability. Carlton is quickly looking like Voss' tenure at Brisbane and while he can articulate some of the onfield problems, he's shown zero ability to solve them. Our style of football is dire as a spectacle and the results are just as bad. The only case to keep him is because we sacked his predecessor for similar issues, which is no justification at all.

Lloyd is ultimately responsible for terrible results throughout his tenure so there is no reason to retain him either. There was a strong suggestion he only survived the cull at the end of 2021 to maintain some degree of continuity in the football dept. No reason to do that now.

Thirdly, I'd like the club to appoint an interim "safe pair of hands" (we'll come to that) to coach out the year to allow the club some time to work with the list management and recruitment team (Austin has had mixed results but I don't think we've had the coaching talent to see to accurately assess his capability) to reassess the list and conduct a thorough coaching search at both head coach and assistant levels.

In terms of the interim coach, the question is about availability with the vast majority of talent (Hardwick aside) contracted to assistant or head coaching gigs elsewhere. You're essentially limited to those still in the footy community (development or administrative roles), the media, or internal candidates. Of the latter, Luke Power

Luke Power

Age

44

Ht

180cm

Wt

79kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

23.0

5star

K

13.4

5star

HB

9.6

5star

M

3.9

4star

T

3.9

5star

CL

1.9

4star

No current season stats available

D

16.6

4star

K

10.2

4star

HB

6.4

4star

M

1.4

2star

T

2.0

4star

or Hansen would probably be the likely candidates (neither are ideal IMO) or someone like Leon Cameron

Leon Cameron

Age

52

Ht

185cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.2

4star

K

12.4

5star

HB

4.7

3star

M

3.6

4star

T

0.9

3star

No current season stats available

D

20.8

5star

K

14.4

5star

HB

6.4

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

0.8

3star

(bear with me) who is currently in a U18's Dev role at the Swans.

One idea I do like is borrowing from other sports which is where you appoint an interim coach with the intention of them moving "upstairs" to a strategic role in the longer term. There are likely plenty of coaches who may not be interested in the long-term grind of a head coaching commitment but are happy to fill the void in the interim as close engagement with players aids them in their longer-term strategic role. A younger version of a Rocket Eade-type is my thinking here. A Cameron or similar "interim-then-HOF" appointment on the back of a Don Pyke longer-term coaching appointment is something I could live with.

 

[Gez1969]

I think Voss should be kept in place until the end of the season to maximize our losses, then thanked for his time and shown the door with his large severance cheque. The lower we go the better the 1st pick.
Want to talk about papers stamped, Michael Voss will never be the senior coach of an AFL team after we part ways with him.

I simply cannot imagine a worse game plan. The lack of fluency, flow, innovation, is so stark, its just awful, I don't like watching my team play, my team don't look like they enjoy playing, they look disconsolate, sad, angry, frustrated, scared and more recently apathetic, I think Voss has lost the playing group. I think this is going to be a complete failure of a season we are already most of the way there.

We are going to have to move on a few players and coaches and thats OK, just because you admit the plan failed doesnt mean we have to arrive at Princes park with pitchforks and torches. Just call it a bust and move on.

As for who replaces him, I really don't know, preferably one with experience but not necessarily a Clarkson, Hardwick type as I feel they have scaled the mountain and are likely similar prospects to Malthouse and Pagan.
So, Pyke, Simpson, Hinkley maybe even, dare I say it, Ratten.

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

This club is stuck in no-man's land on so many levels right now but so many big calls to be made. There are expiring contracts or term limits within the next 18 months at Board, CEO, Head Coach, and a big portion of the lower half of our list of OOC this year. The president has mounting legal issues and the results on the field risk driving the supporter base from anger to indifference at a rate of knots.

In situations like this, you need a successful and experienced decision-maker and leader to take control and the obvious candidate for that is Cook. He is the only one who knows what a successful and sustainable football program looks like and the only one at the club who carries any gravitas within the football community.

Secondly, I'd like Lloyd and Voss both sacked ASAP as neither has demonstrated capability. Carlton is quickly looking like Voss' tenure at Brisbane and while he can articulate some of the onfield problems, he's shown zero ability to solve them. Our style of football is dire as a spectacle and the results are just as bad. The only case to keep him is because we sacked his predecessor for similar issues, which is no justification at all.

Lloyd is ultimately responsible for terrible results throughout his tenure so there is no reason to retain him either. There was a strong suggestion he only survived the cull at the end of 2021 to maintain some degree of continuity in the football dept. No reason to do that now.

Thirdly, I'd like the club to appoint an interim "safe pair of hands" (we'll come to that) to coach out the year to allow the club some time to work with the list management and recruitment team (Austin has had mixed results but I don't think we've had the coaching talent to see to accurately assess his capability) to reassess the list and conduct a thorough coaching search at both head coach and assistant levels.

In terms of the interim coach, the question is about availability with the vast majority of talent (Hardwick aside) contracted to assistant or head coaching gigs elsewhere. You're essentially limited to those still in the footy community (development or administrative roles), the media, or internal candidates. Of the latter, Luke Power or Hansen would probably be the likely candidates (neither are ideal IMO) or someone like Leon Cameron (bear with me) who is currently in a U18's Dev role at the Swans.

One idea I do like is borrowing from other sports which is where you appoint an interim coach with the intention of them moving "upstairs" to a strategic role in the longer term. There are likely plenty of coaches who may not be interested in the long-term grind of a head coaching commitment but are happy to fill the void in the interim as close engagement with players aids them in their longer-term strategic role. A younger version of a Rocket Eade-type is my thinking here. A Cameron or similar "interim-then-HOF" appointment on the back of a Don Pyke longer-term coaching appointment is something I could live with.

he's shown zero ability to solve them.

This.

This is why I have lost belief in Voss.

Reckon Don Pyke is the guy you go for.... Hansen, maybe.

Lloyd, as you say, should have gone back when....