Roast St Kilda in no mans land

[Aristotle Pickett]

Stkilda are building a nice list now. My only concern is Ross Lyon's defensive ,tackling coaching style which can bang up younger players with injuries.

 

[phantom13]

That's fair enough and if you can see a plan then that gives supporters realistic hope

But at the same time you can see opposition supporters being a bit sceptical of the Saints given events of past few years.

Yeh of course, I’d probably flag that out to most of our 150 year history counting against us in that regard.

 

[BrutThough]

There should be some sort of test opposition fans have to take before posting in here so Saints fans dont have to suffer through their attempts of criticism about a game style they only think we play because of Ross Lyon.

 

[phantom13]

Stkilda are building a nice list now. My only concern is Ross Lyon's defensive ,tackling coaching style which can bang up younger players with injuries.

Do we tackle more than opposition? I actually haven’t checked any stats on this so might be fair. We played a fairly negating style around clearance last year because we just didn’t have the players to win it and spread.

Ross gamestyle is pretty physically taxing in terms of gut running and defensive running/spread on turnover but it remains to be seen if that’s gonna bang up the kids. Darcy Wilson seemed to flourish under that style.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Do we tackle more than opposition? I actually haven’t checked any stats on this so might be fair. We played a fairly negating style around clearance last year because we just didn’t have the players to win it and spread.

Ross gamestyle is pretty physically taxing in terms of gut running and defensive running/spread on turnover but it remains to be seen if that’s gonna bang up the kids. Darcy Wilson seemed to flourish under that style.

I think there is a chance it can have an accumulative effect over time. Clubs like Geelong with a more bruise free style tend to have players with longer careers.

 

[Saints2028onwards]

Hi, reading this page for a few months I had to join and get involved.

As an avid saints fan, to me we are in rebuild mode.
Both from a list perspective and as an organization perspective.
We have always had the worst run administration. It cost us at least 2 flags 90s/00s. Disgrace.

Anyway, we need to hit the draft 2 more years hard before Tassie.
We desperately need ELITE inside midfield talent. 3 ways that's going to happen.
1. Draft
2. Free Agency
3. Miracle from Within - Philipou, Windhager, Boxshall, Dow, Carroll, Byrnes, Garcia, Clark, Owens.

We did the right thing drafting Tobie and Alix. There was zero point in drafting another average/hopeful midfielder.
The McCartin choice of need before best should never be repeated again.
Boxshall was a great slider surprise - as good as anything outside the top 7 mids. So was Dodson who could be anything.

The comments we are anywhere near Carlton is a ridiculous to me.
Carlton are in the zone now for a flag and will be fighting it out given all things equal with injuries.
Their time is now. Best spine in the league. And round 24, I would not be bragging about in any way.

We Saints fans need to just dream of what might be from 2028-2035 and enjoy the process.
I think it will be a great era for us.
We are building the right way.

 

[BrutThough]

Do we tackle more than opposition? I actually haven’t checked any stats on this so might be fair. We played a fairly negating style around clearance last year because we just didn’t have the players to win it and spread.

Ross gamestyle is pretty physically taxing in terms of gut running and defensive running/spread on turnover but it remains to be seen if that’s gonna bang up the kids. Darcy Wilson seemed to flourish under that style.

No, not according to the stats we don't.

 

[Elixuh]

Hi, reading this page for a few months I had to join and get involved.

As an avid saints fan, to me we are in rebuild mode.
Both from a list perspective and as an organization perspective.
We have always had the worst run administration. It cost us at least 2 flags 90s/00s. Disgrace.

Anyway, we need to hit the draft 2 more years hard before Tassie.
We desperately need ELITE inside midfield talent. 3 ways that's going to happen.
1. Draft
2. Free Agency
3. Miracle from Within - Philipou, Windhager, Boxshall, Dow, Carroll, Byrnes, Garcia, Clark, Owens.

We did the right thing drafting Tobie and Alix. There was zero point in drafting another average/hopeful midfielder.
The McCartin choice of need before best should never be repeated again.
Boxshall was a great slider surprise - as good as anything outside the top 7 mids. So was Dodson who could be anything.

The comments we are anywhere near Carlton is a ridiculous to me.
Carlton are in the zone now for a flag and will be fighting it out given all things equal with injuries.
Their time is now. Best spine in the league. And round 24, I would not be bragging about in any way.

We Saints fans need to just dream of what might be from 2028-2035 and enjoy the process.
I think it will be a great era for us.
We are building the right way.

This is the most balanced post I’ve read and I 100% agree with your sentiments.

I found it odd that the saints drafted 3 defenders with their first 3 picks in the draft this year despite their defence being so highly regarded by saints fans. Why do you think the saints didn’t take any mids?

 

[BrutThough]

This is the most balanced post I’ve read and I 100% agree with your sentiments.

I found it odd that the saints drafted 3 defenders with their first 3 picks in the draft this year despite their defence being so highly regarded by saints fans. Why do you think the saints didn’t take any mids?

I cant wait to read your response once you log back into that account

 

[Saints2028onwards]

This is the most balanced post I’ve read and I 100% agree with your sentiments.

I found it odd that the saints drafted 3 defenders with their first 3 picks in the draft this year despite their defence being so highly regarded by saints fans. Why do you think the saints didn’t take any mids?

IMO I love it. There were 7 elite inside mids. Unfortunately we had pick 8.
Our window will be 2028+.
If you look at that team in 2028 we need key defenders for that era. We got 3 absolute beauties. (hopefully). But Tauru can be anything. His talent probably better up forward. I bet he ends up there, given Shoenmaker/Barrat can be down back for intercepting role.
I love that we picked best, over rushing for need.
Boxshall as an inside mid was as good as any outside of those 7. SO to get him at 45. Great for us.

 

[Elixuh]

IMO I love it. There were 7 elite inside mids. Unfortunately we had pick 8.
Our window will be 2028+.
If you look at that team in 2028 we need key defenders for that era. We got 3 absolute beauties. (hopefully). But Tauru can be anything. His talent probably better up forward. I bet he ends up there, given Shoenmaker/Barrat can be down back for intercepting role.
I love that we picked best, over rushing for need.
Boxshall as an inside mid was as good as any outside of those 7. SO to get him at 45. Great for us.

I’ve found the one reasonable saints fan who understands the list build for the next flag! Couldn’t agree more. You’re going to get thumb downed by Phantom, but I think you’re on the money.

 

[EconomicDecline]

Let's just get some things out of the way without being verbose.

Bottoming out. "sTkiLdA hAsnT boTTomEd OUt!"

What a stupid ****ing thing to suggest this is St Kilda's only avenue. Have Geelong bottomed out? Have Sydney bottomed out? No. Both have played in finals 17 out of the past 20 seasons. Look at how North has gone. Shed bucket loads of best 22 and have spent the past 5 seasons in the bottom 2.

Pretty obvious we would prefer to be like these aforementioned clubs. Maintain where we have been the past 5 seasons, emulate how they build their lists, and push up. Gees. Wonder why we got Dalrymple?

Clear the list of guys who can't get on the park and are holding back development of younger players, and bring in more resilient athletic players that match Lyon's game plan. All the talent in the world means shit if your bodies broken down for more than half the year. Look at who we've let go:

Brad Crouch (career ending injury - knee is shot)
Ben Paton (injury stalled ability - never the same after leg break)
Jack Hayes (3 seasons - 8 games - injury plagued)
Olli Hotton (2 seasons - 0 games - injury plagued)
James Van Es (2 seasons - 0 games - injury plagued)
Matthew Allison (4 seasons - 0 games - not talented enough)
Riley Bonner (turnover king)
Tom Campbell (vfl monster/afl eh - holding back Heath's development [and now Dodson's])
Sebastian Ross (GOP but holding back development of others)
Tim Membrey (GOP but holding back development of others)

Apart from King, who's natural talent is worth keeping on, the only player left on the list with significant injury history is Jones.

When it comes to drafting, we went for best available in the first round with guys that have shown they have the potential to play positions that aren't just defence. The remainder were a key position swingman, mid, ruck, and a mid/small forward.

We have a very balanced best 22 under 22. Raw for some, but at least we've moved on from having a dozen half backs.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Let's just get some things out of the way without being verbose.

Bottoming out. "sTkiLdA hAsnT boTTomEd OUt!"

What a stupid ****ing thing to suggest this is St Kilda's only avenue. Have Geelong bottomed out? Have Sydney bottomed out? No. Both have played in finals 17 out of the past 20 seasons. Look at how North has gone. Shed bucket loads of best 22 and have spent the past 5 seasons in the bottom 2.

Are you seriously comparing St Kilda to Geelong in Sydney? They both have advantages St Kilda does not. Academy for Swans, plus Sydney lifestyle and Geelong also has lifestyle.
Both teams can also point to onfield success and off-field stability.

St Kilda are nothing like these two clubs.

North are a cautionary tale, sure, but they also stuffed up off-field and hired a coach that no one else would have, and still have question marks over their development and the current coach.

 

[phantom13]

I’ve found the one reasonable saints fan who understands the list build for the next flag! Couldn’t agree more. You’re going to get thumb downed by Phantom, but I think you’re on the money.

Yes, the one, suspiciously new poster who happens to agree with you is the correct one and the VAST majority who think you have no idea about an opposition club you clearly havent watched are wrong.

Are you seriously comparing St Kilda to Geelong in Sydney? They both have advantages St Kilda does not. Academy for Swans, plus Sydney lifestyle and Geelong also has lifestyle.
Both teams can also point to onfield success and off-field stability.

St Kilda are nothing like these two clubs.

North are a cautionary tale, sure, but they also stuffed up off-field and hired a coach that no one else would have, and still have question marks over their development and the current coach.

Wanting to emulate isnt the same as comparing mate. Given weve been down and somewhere between average to shitful since about 2012 how well do you think us bottoming out ala North would go down with the supporter base, especially when we have a pretty bright crop of youth coupled with some very good 26-30 year olds still worth a run?

I think ultimately whether you agree with the approach the saints are very very obviously taking is going to be subjective, thats fine, and its going to be tinged with whatever your history and opinion of the saints is BUT what is very clear to anyone not making burner accounts is that were all in on 2026. Weve built a list that needs an A grade free agent midfielder to compliment it around a gamestyle suited to the coach and the cattle.

 

[Elixuh]

Yes, the one, suspiciously new poster who happens to agree with you is the correct one and the VAST majority who think you have no idea about an opposition club you clearly havent watched are wrong.


Wanting to emulate isnt the same as comparing mate. Given weve been down and somewhere between average to shitful since about 2012 how well do you think us bottoming out ala North would go down with the supporter base, especially when we have a pretty bright crop of youth coupled with some very good 26-30 year olds still worth a run?

I think ultimately whether you agree with the approach the saints are very very obviously taking is going to be subjective, thats fine, and its going to be tinged with whatever your history and opinion of the saints is BUT what is very clear to anyone not making burner accounts is that were all in on 2026. Weve built a list that needs an A grade free agent midfielder to compliment it around a gamestyle suited to the coach and the cattle.

What do you mean suspicious?

You’re one of the most deluded posters I’ve come across on this place. It’s fascinating. Better than Carlton aye.

 

[phantom13]

What do you mean suspicious?

You’re one of the most deluded posters I’ve come across on this place. It’s fascinating. Better than Carlton aye.

I truly CBF with you mate. Carry on as you like.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Wanting to emulate isnt the same as comparing mate. Given weve been down and somewhere between average to shitful since about 2012 how well do you think us bottoming out ala North would go down with the supporter base, especially when we have a pretty bright crop of youth coupled with some very good 26-30 year olds still worth a run?

I think ultimately whether you agree with the approach the saints are very very obviously taking is going to be subjective, thats fine, and its going to be tinged with whatever your history and opinion of the saints is BUT what is very clear to anyone not making burner accounts is that were all in on 2026. Weve built a list that needs an A grade free agent midfielder to compliment it around a gamestyle suited to the coach and the cattle.

That poster quite literally wrote that the thought that Saints needed to bottom out is “****ing stupid” because Geelong and Sydney haven’t had to.

Geelong had Dangerfield, Cameron and now Smith ask to join them amongst others, Swans had Franklin, Grundy and others ontop of the Academy where they’ve landed Heeney and Mills.


That comment or comparison is far dumber than anyone’s suggestion that St Kilda need to bottom out to get elite talent into the middle.

We will never know if you’d have bounced out of a bottom out, or if you’d implode on-field and off like North did, but what we do know that despite being in rebuild mode for at least 2-3 years, according to Saints fans, that you’re all still saying you need top end talent in the middle, choosing to suggest that you might or will do it via Free Agency when you’ve also admitted that you’re up against it when your club doesn’t have marquee games, isn’t an MCG tenant and doesn’t have a period of success to point to and the clubs you’re competing with for FA’s almost certainly do.

 

[phantom13]

That poster quite literally wrote that the thought that Saints needed to bottom out is “****ing stupid” because Geelong and Sydney haven’t had to.

Geelong had Dangerfield, Cameron and now Smith ask to join them amongst others, Swans had Franklin, Grundy and others ontop of the Academy where they’ve landed Heeney and Mills.


That comment or comparison is far dumber than anyone’s suggestion that St Kilda need to bottom out to get elite talent into the middle.

We will never know if you’d have bounced out of a bottom out, or if you’d implode on-field and off like North did, but what we do know that despite being in rebuild mode for at least 2-3 years, according to Saints fans, that you’re all still saying you need top end talent in the middle, choosing to suggest that you might or will do it via Free Agency when you’ve also admitted that you’re up against it when your club doesn’t have marquee games, isn’t an MCG tenant and doesn’t have a period of success to point to and the clubs you’re competing with for FA’s almost certainly do.

Yeh i think this is just a mentality thing for a superior club that youre just not ever going to understand, also it is ****ing stupid to suggest only bottoming out will win you a flag, literally no one has the secret formula to list building guaranteed to win a flag so why not try to emulate the more sustained successful clubs if there model matches where your club is currently at.

So because historically we havent been able to land the big FAs we should just give up? Even though we have a very good backline, talented if inconsistent forward line, really good group of 22 and under kids and possibly the most talented key forward in the game? Because you think we cant get an FA we just shouldnt even try, go to the draft and hope for the best.

Im glad youre not running the club because the lack of vision for other avenues is pretty alarming.

Also no one has suggested that nabbing an FA is our only option for a midfield star. Weve drafted what we could and are developing Phillipou, Wilson, Windhager and a bunch of other i have no doubt you wouldnt know a thing about.

Well go after an FA because you have to, modern football requires it and yeh well be behind your lot and the pies and a stack of others but if were playing good footy, we have great facilities and a stable and top shelf coaching and admin as well as more money than the others then were giving ourselves every opportunity arent we?

 

[EconomicDecline]

That poster quite literally wrote that the thought that Saints needed to bottom out is “****ing stupid” because Geelong and Sydney haven’t had to.

Geelong had Dangerfield, Cameron and now Smith ask to join them amongst others, Swans had Franklin, Grundy and others ontop of the Academy where they’ve landed Heeney and Mills.


That comment or comparison is far dumber than anyone’s suggestion that St Kilda need to bottom out to get elite talent into the middle.

We will never know if you’d have bounced out of a bottom out, or if you’d implode on-field and off like North did, but what we do know that despite being in rebuild mode for at least 2-3 years, according to Saints fans, that you’re all still saying you need top end talent in the middle, choosing to suggest that you might or will do it via Free Agency when you’ve also admitted that you’re up against it when your club doesn’t have marquee games, isn’t an MCG tenant and doesn’t have a period of success to point to and the clubs you’re competing with for FA’s almost certainly do.

I'm saying we want to build towards emulating those clubs. Don't be stupid.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Yeh i think this is just a mentality thing for a superior club that youre just not ever going to understand, also it is ****ing stupid to suggest only bottoming out will win you a flag, literally no one has the secret formula to list building guaranteed to win a flag so why not try to emulate the more sustained successful clubs if there model matches where your club is currently at.

No one said that.

We were talking about how Saints get elite talent into their midfield. It’s a clear need.

You compete with no one for a signature at the draft. You hand pick the best talent you can get at that pick.

That’s the difference, and the reason people would suggest Saints would be much better served to have taken a hit and hit the draft with more fervor than to try and compete with others for FA signings.

Even if that comment was in regards to emulation of Swans or Geelong and their advantages that is just pure fantasy.
St Kilda has no geographical advantage, no leverage of lifestyle to lean on, no history of stability and good/winning culture. How do they intend to emulate Geelong and Sydney?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I'm saying we want to build towards emulating those clubs. Don't be stupid.

How?

 

[phantom13]

No one said that.

We were talking about how Saints get elite talent into their midfield. It’s a clear need.

You compete with no one for a signature at the draft. You hand pick the best talent you can get at that pick.

That’s the difference, and the reason people would suggest Saints would be much better served to have taken a hit and hit the draft with more fervor than to try and compete with others for FA signings.

Even if that comment was in regards to emulation of Swans or Geelong and their advantages that is just pure fantasy.
St Kilda has no geographical advantage, no leverage of lifestyle to lean on, no history of stability and good/winning culture. How do they intend to emulate Geelong and Sydney?

Firstly you absolutely said that we should do one over the other, my point is that if our list profile and on field best 22 (25 ish) looks something similar to those teams then why would we try to bottom out rather than top up?

You dont compete with anyone at the draft but short of Harley Reid youre also not guaranteed to get the best player with a higher pick are you? We took Billings over Bont (which was the correct call at the time) and that was a failure.

Youre suggesting we should tank, really, because were not that bad, to get a better draft pick which guarantees nothing and goes against the clubs assesment of its list and position.

Said as naseum we have an excellent defensive unit with 2 genuine stars in Wilkie and Sinclair coupled with argurably the best young defender in the game in Nasiah. We have Max King, probably the most talented tall forward since Charlie Curnow with some very talented if inconsistent natural forwards around him. Even our midfield, the main area of weakness, isnt horrible with Macrae coming in. Youre completely ignoring the assets weve got because you believe the bottom out is the better way. Thats fine, but its not fact.

In terms of your list, its fair, no argument although stability and culture are improving quite clearly and whilst the lifestyle advantage isnt Geelongs Melbournes south eastern Bayside is one of the most desirable locations to live (noting i live in the west so whatever right) a fact weve made no secret of wanting to tap into.

If were targeting FAs against you and the pies and Carlton and ONLY leaning on your list were ****ed, no doubt, but we can offer more money, we can offer the culture and the list and the coach and the facilities.

It might not work, we might not win every FA race but weve only gotta win one dont we?

Lets say next year LDU and Brayshaw both explore FA and weve just finished 6th and won a final. Max kicked 60, Steele and Macrae looked great together and Pou showed signs of being a genuine game winner. NAS and Wilson make the AA 40 and Roma, Wilkie, King and Sincs get blazers. Were getting 40k at Marvel every week and sold out a home final against your lot at the G and we throw $1.8-2m for 8 at both of them and you and the other top flight clubs can only offer $1.4m over 5.

Are you SURE you beat us for that signature?

Granted its a hypothetical but thats the vision and its not impossible.

 

[phantom13]

How?

... this is getting trolly and i dont think that really your play.

Its been explained, in quite a bit of detail the how and why, dont agree with it but dont play dumb.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

... this is getting trolly and i dont think that really your play.

Its been explained, in quite a bit of detail the how and why, dont agree with it but dont play dumb.

No, it’s not trolly at all.

This poster claims that Saint Kilda want to emulate Geelong and the Swans, and I’ve asked them how they would do that?

Unless you speak for all Saints fans, I am inclined to ask specific posters to make their own point.
I’ll respond to your post when I have more time.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Firstly you absolutely said that we should do one over the other, my point is that if our list profile and on field best 22 (25 ish) looks something similar to those teams then why would we try to bottom out rather than top up?

You dont compete with anyone at the draft but short of Harley Reid youre also not guaranteed to get the best player with a higher pick are you? We took Billings over Bont (which was the correct call at the time) and that was a failure.

Youre suggesting we should tank, really, because were not that bad, to get a better draft pick which guarantees nothing and goes against the clubs assesment of its list and position.

Said as naseum we have an excellent defensive unit with 2 genuine stars in Wilkie and Sinclair coupled with argurably the best young defender in the game in Nasiah. We have Max King, probably the most talented tall forward since Charlie Curnow with some very talented if inconsistent natural forwards around him. Even our midfield, the main area of weakness, isnt horrible with Macrae coming in. Youre completely ignoring the assets weve got because you believe the bottom out is the better way. Thats fine, but its not fact.

In terms of your list, its fair, no argument although stability and culture are improving quite clearly and whilst the lifestyle advantage isnt Geelongs Melbournes south eastern Bayside is one of the most desirable locations to live (noting i live in the west so whatever right) a fact weve made no secret of wanting to tap into.

If were targeting FAs against you and the pies and Carlton and ONLY leaning on your list were ****ed, no doubt, but we can offer more money, we can offer the culture and the list and the coach and the facilities.

It might not work, we might not win every FA race but weve only gotta win one dont we?

Lets say next year LDU and Brayshaw both explore FA and weve just finished 6th and won a final. Max kicked 60, Steele and Macrae looked great together and Pou showed signs of being a genuine game winner. NAS and Wilson make the AA 40 and Roma, Wilkie, King and Sincs get blazers. Were getting 40k at Marvel every week and sold out a home final against your lot at the G and we throw $1.8-2m for 8 at both of them and you and the other top flight clubs can only offer $1.4m over 5.

Are you SURE you beat us for that signature?

Granted its a hypothetical but thats the vision and its not impossible.

Max King wouldn't be in the top 5 young key talls in the game let alone the most talented since Curnow. Darcy, Amiss, Treacy, Naughton, Cadman, Walter... King is an absolute headcase and the Saints play better without him.

Macrae doesn't shift the needle whatsoever in your midfield. Bottom 4 in the AFL for quality and heavily carried by Marshall.

Saints list is simply put, B grade at best.