Opinion Sydney Swans Academy and Rebuild

[MF]

Not sure if an AFL bail out and 5x first round draft picks before leaving is responsibility for Melbourne being a premiership winning side.

Didn't Clarkson have about 8 first round draft picks in his first 2 years at the Hawks?

Also, why are you including games as a player?

 

[Number37]

Paul Roos will forever be the biggest fraud in football history.

 

[smish]

Please continue to tell Swans fans about their own clubs history

Been a member since '96. Supporting them for a lot longer. Swans under Roos vs before was night and day, just revision of history to claim he didn't impact both clubs.

He instilled a culture in the Swans which continues today. Done the same at Melbourne

Not sure, making the finals generally seems to be an objective indication that a team is doing alright.

Roos' contribution to Melbourne is akin to Brendan Bolton setting up Carlton for success, and the culture Bolton instilled which continues to this day.

 

[SM]

Not sure, making the finals generally seems to be an objective indication that a team is doing alright.

Roos' contribution to Melbourne is akin to Brendan Bolton setting up Carlton for success, and the culture Bolton instilled which continues to this day.

 

[smish]

Didn't Clarkson have about 8 first round draft picks in his first 2 years at the Hawks?

Also, why are you including games as a player?

I think it was 6. May I ask the relevance of this and the Clarkson reference to my point?

 

[Number37]

Swans fans have become a parody.

Top draft picks aren't that valuable, clubs get them all the time and players often don't turn out to be stars. A team that finishes top and makes the Grand Final then wins 16 games isn't advantaged by getting picks 2 and 3 for cents on the dollar. But don't dare suggest removing that non advantage...

I actually agree that getting more NSW and Qld players into the system is a good thing. They are underdeveloped markets as far as AFL footballers go. But there's currently no benefit to anyone except the teams that develop said players. The second Braeden Campbell wasn't picked in the top 3 you knew Sydney were going to pick anyone except him because all they need to do to get him is sacrifice later picks. Not an advantage though because he's not getting a regular game at 20 years old. Chad Warner is better and he was pick 39.

Anti-academy logic...

Can't have academy kids when you finish down the ladder and end up with 2 high end picks, because that's unfair on the bottom teams (so by picking academy kids when you at the bottom end of the ladder you are being unfair on yourself).
Also... can't have academy kids when you finish up the ladder, because that's unfair on the bottom teams.
Also...can't have academy kids when you finish mid-ladder because that's also unfair on the bottom teams.

What we want is for all players to be available to all clubs.
Except those draftees that don't want to leave their home state, or request a trade after 2 years. Coz that's fair. Especially when teams in the home state are in their ears from before they even get drafted.


Best anti-academy logic....
Academy picks are an unfair leg-up because all those academy picks have resulted in multiple premierships* to academy clubs. (* premierships may or may not have been actually won)

 

[ChristianBoy]

Not bad two AFL gifts Mills and Heeney make all AA. Clearly no leg up this set up by the AFL.

 

[MF]

Not bad two AFL gifts Mills and Heeney make all AA. Clearly no leg up this set up by the AFL.

What?

 

[juddy_Like]

Anti-academy logic...

Can't have academy kids when you finish down the ladder and end up with 2 high end picks, because that's unfair on the bottom teams (so by picking academy kids when you at the bottom end of the ladder you are being unfair on yourself).
Also... can't have academy kids when you finish up the ladder, because that's unfair on the bottom teams.
Also...can't have academy kids when you finish mid-ladder because that's also unfair on the bottom teams.

What we want is for all players to be available to all clubs.
Except those draftees that don't want to leave their home state, or request a trade after 2 years. Coz that's fair. Especially when teams in the home state are in their ears from before they even get drafted.


Best anti-academy logic....
Academy picks are an unfair leg-up because all those academy picks have resulted in multiple premierships* to academy clubs. (* premierships may or may not have been actually won)

I think you miss the point whereby southern clubs don’t get access to elite academy players regardless of if we finish top, middle, bottom.

If you’re thinking but you have access to NGAs, well that’s a joke and doesn’t give you access to the elite players.

As for your second point, well I don’t see Warner, MacDonald, Rowbottom, etc wanting to leave.
Same with Rayner, McCluggage, Berry back to vic.
King, Ainsworth, Luko all resigned too. Rankine is basically getting paid extra to leave. They even had players they wanted to trade out last year but couldn’t because they didn’t want to leave.
Giants is going through cap and playing time issues which happens.

I’d argue that Adelaide have a just as bad retention issue so should they get an academy as well?

Ultimately I don’t the academies could ever be scraped but you can tweak it so it’s not such an influence on the draft. Personally I like either the you can only bid on points with your next pick best or the r1 bids can only be matched with R1 points I can see working as well.

 

[Scotland]

If the Lions had pick 2 this year and Ashcroft didn't go pick 1 would they select him at pick 2 or take someone else and match a bid later in the round? How is father son any different in that respect?

You mean father sons like Sean Dempster and Tom Mitchell? Ashcroft will be Brisbane's 4th father son and their first since 2014. They've had 9 or 10 academy picks since then.

Father son rule applies to all clubs, with Gold Coast and GWS the only two that it doesn't meaningfully apply to yet. How many father son prospects do people think clubs actually have each year? My club has had 277 players ever. So we probably have around 30 or 40 players who are in the right age bracket to have an 18/19 year old child, then you filter that down to those that have sons that age, and then those sons that are in the top 70 or 80 draft age players in the country. We've had 3 father son selections under the normal rules; Jake and Alec Waterman and Jacob Brennan.

15 players were drafted out of WA last year, 1 F/S (Woewodin). 10 the year prior and 0. 14 the year before that and 0 again. Compare that to the 2020 draft where 2 QAFL and 2 Sydney AFL players were drafted and all were academy eligible. 2019 was 4 NEAFL, all academy eligible. 2018 2 AFL Sydney, 3 QAFL and all academy eligible.

It's a bit of a nothing comparison. This century there have been 10 or 12 players drafted under the father son rule who were either selected in the first round under various bidding/matching systems or like Travis Cloke and Tom Hawkins would have been if those rules existed. So a dozen players between 16 clubs over 20 years. The Northern clubs have had more than that between them in the last 5-10 years in academy picks.

 

[Number37]

I think you miss the point whereby southern clubs don’t get access to elite academy players regardless of if we finish top, middle, bottom.

If you’re thinking but you have access to NGAs, well that’s a joke and doesn’t give you access to the elite players.

As for your second point, well I don’t see Warner, MacDonald, Rowbottom, etc wanting to leave.
Same with Rayner, McCluggage, Berry back to vic.
King, Ainsworth, Luko all resigned too. Rankine is basically getting paid extra to leave. They even had players they wanted to trade out last year but couldn’t because they didn’t want to leave.
Giants is going through cap and playing time issues which happens.

I’d argue that Adelaide have a just as bad retention issue so should they get an academy as well?

Ultimately I don’t the academies could ever be scraped but you can tweak it so it’s not such an influence on the draft. Personally I like either the you can only bid on points with your next pick best or the r1 bids can only be matched with R1 points I can see working as well.

I've never heard Vic clubs & their supporters complain about high end father son selections, in exactly the same circumstances.
I don't disagree that academy selections can be an advantage when a club also gets other top end draft selections, however, it is also unfair that academy clubs should forego talent just because they have other top end draft selections because nobody is in control of when top end draft kids appear, that is all down to their age.
There is a balance that needs to happen, you don't get balance by scrapping it all together. Especially with knee jerk reactions based on the feels of opposition club supporters who have a vested interested in screwing over their opponents.

 

[SM]

You mean father sons like Sean Dempster and Tom Mitchell? Ashcroft will be Brisbane's 4th father son and their first since 2014. They've had 9 or 10 academy picks since then.

Father son rule applies to all clubs, with Gold Coast and GWS the only two that it doesn't meaningfully apply to yet. How many father son prospects do people think clubs actually have each year? My club has had 277 players ever. So we probably have around 30 or 40 players who are in the right age bracket to have an 18/19 year old child, then you filter that down to those that have sons that age, and then those sons that are in the top 70 or 80 draft age players in the country. We've had 3 father son selections under the normal rules; Jake and Alec Waterman and Jacob Brennan.

15 players were drafted out of WA last year, 1 F/S (Woewodin). 10 the year prior and 0. 14 the year before that and 0 again. Compare that to the 2020 draft where 2 QAFL and 2 Sydney AFL players were drafted and all were academy eligible. 2019 was 4 NEAFL, all academy eligible. 2018 2 AFL Sydney, 3 QAFL and all academy eligible.

It's a bit of a nothing comparison. This century there have been 10 or 12 players drafted under the father son rule who were either selected in the first round under various bidding/matching systems or like Travis Cloke and Tom Hawkins would have been if those rules existed. So a dozen players between 16 clubs over 20 years. The Northern clubs have had more than that between them in the last 5-10 years in academy picks.

I think you're missing the point of my comparison.

 

[Scotland]

I think you're missing the point of my comparison.

Which is?

Most people don't care about father son selections because they are infrequent and the rules apply across the board. They don't really have any relevance to academies. The VFL got rid of zones and moved to a draft for a reason.

 

[SM]

Which is?

Most people don't care about father son selections because they are infrequent and the rules apply across the board. They don't really have any relevance to academies. The VFL got rid of zones and moved to a draft for a reason.

That clubs who had a high draft pick wouldn't waste it on taking the F/S but would instead match a later bid with later picks. It's not a unique quirk of the Academy system.

 

[Lemma]

Sydney get F/S also so it's not as if it's something only Vic clubs get

 

[ChristianBoy]

What?

Two gifts that have made the AA team. Not bad when you finish top four.

 

[Sphynx]

They are just about due for another suite of top 5 academy prospects to further supercharge them.

They have had their period of dipping into the rest of the draft pool at the bottom, so weight of numbers should mean they are due some top prospects that they get whilst sitting in the top 6 that they can pick up with pick 35,46,47,54,82.

 

[RUNVS]

They are just about due for another suite of top 5 academy prospects to further supercharge them.

They have had their period of dipping into the rest of the draft pool at the bottom, so weight of numbers should mean they are due some top prospects that they get whilst sitting in the top 6 that they can pick up with pick 35,46,47,54,82.

Apparently Leo Barry's kid is coming through and he is quite good.

 

[BloodySwan]

Two gifts that have made the AA team. Not bad when you finish top four.

I'm not following, do you want the players to be terrible? You do realise the intention of the academys is to increase the talent pool

 

[ChristianBoy]

I'm not following, do you want the players to be terrible? You do realise the intention of the academys is to increase the talent pool

No I don't want a club to be simply gifted players because they live in the same state.

 

[Maddo11]

No I don't want a club to be simply gifted players because they live in the same state.

Don't worry they're not

 

[SM]

They are just about due for another suite of top 5 academy prospects to further supercharge them.

They have had their period of dipping into the rest of the draft pool at the bottom, so weight of numbers should mean they are due some top prospects that they get whilst sitting in the top 6 that they can pick up with pick 35,46,47,54,82.

Sorry, we talking about the Swans or Cats?

 

[ChristianBoy]

Don't worry they're not

Untrue. Heeney Mills and Blakey prove that. The fact Blakey isnt at North or Brisbane is a joke.

 

[MF]

Two gifts that have made the AA team. Not bad when you finish top four.

Yeah pretty good player development up in Sydney hey?

How many of the players you tanked for ended up becoming AA?

 

[WOFTAMWarrior]

No I don't want a club to be simply gifted players because they live in the same state.

You realise that in NSW and QLD that Australian Rules Football isnt the number one code? If the Clubs didn't fund the academies and they were simply AFL funded they wouldn't get the access. Instead players in VIC,SA,WA come through pathways of development that aren't available in States like NSW and QLD. They also don't receive the third party payments to appear on television shows that they do in VIC.

The academies are there to grow the game. Increase the talent pool. The result of that is all Clubs have access to even more talent.