Team Mgmt. Talk about the makeup of our list - midfield balance, height profile, endurance runners

[Lore]

Our five young re-signings from the last little while

 

[revival_mode]

Cringe

 

[Yoda_]

Am an avid follower of what David King has to say and he showed some really interest points on what sets apart those smaller midfield dominaters apart from the rest.

Guys like Lachie Neale

9

Lachie Neale

Age

31

Ht

178cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

27.0

5star

K

11.5

4star

HB

15.5

5star

M

4.0

4star

T

3.7

5star

CL

5.9

5star

D

28.3

5star

K

13.9

5star

HB

14.4

5star

M

4.6

4star

T

4.0

5star

CL

5.9

5star

D

12.0

3star

K

4.6

2star

HB

7.4

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

1.0

3star

CL

0.4

3star

and Clayton Oliver

13

Clayton Oliver

Age

27

Ht

189cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

27.8

5star

K

9.5

4star

HB

18.4

5star

M

3.2

3star

T

6.3

5star

CL

6.3

5star

D

25.1

5star

K

11.1

4star

HB

14.0

5star

M

3.6

4star

T

5.6

5star

CL

5.9

5star

D

19.2

5star

K

4.6

2star

HB

14.6

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

4.4

5star

CL

3.8

5star

despite being such powerful runners explode from the contest when they get the ball. May only be a few meters here and there, it helps them get the ball deeper than what the opposition generally sets up for.


IF we can help get those 2nd and 3rd mids help block and create that few meters for a guy like Parish then it should help translate to deeper entries, resulting in better scoring opportunities.

 

[ant555]

Am an avid follower of what David King has to say and he showed some really interest points on what sets apart those smaller midfield dominaters apart from the rest.

Guys like Lachie Neale and Clayton Oliver despite being such powerful runners explode from the contest when they get the ball. May only be a few meters here and there, it helps them get the ball deeper than what the opposition generally sets up for.


IF we can help get those 2nd and 3rd mids help block and create that few meters for a guy like Parish then it should help translate to deeper entries, resulting in better scoring opportunities.

What also sets apart a lot of the short (175-179) midfielders with a great inside game is most play at 84/85/86kg.
A guy Neale 178 - 84 or Zorko 175 - 82. The numbers look light weight but they are strong and powerful.
Libba is generally the one that gets the dogs going inside and he is 185-84.

 

[Yoda_]

What also sets apart a lot of the short (175-179) midfielders with a great inside game is most play at 84/85/86kg.
A guy Neale 178 - 84 or Zorko 175 - 82. The numbers look light weight but they are strong and powerful.
Libba is generally the one that gets the dogs going inside and he is 185-84.

Now that you say that

Parish 180/80 (+/-0)
McGrath 180/83 (+3kg)
Merret 179/83 (+3kg)
Shiel 182/84 (+2kg)

It's not all doom and gloom on that front. Perhaps 2 - 4 more kilos to help bust through the contest would be nice but it isn't as bad as made out to be.

 

[Milanista28]

Most of our guys aren't willing to get caught they all rush their disposals, Neale and Oliver aren't rushed they find the extra second more often than not. Stringer Langford and Perkins rarely panic under pressure and I think Hobbs may be good as well.

 

[Lore]

Most of our guys aren't willing to get caught they all rush their disposals, Neale and Oliver aren't rushed they find the extra second more often than not. Stringer Langford and Perkins rarely panic under pressure and I think Hobbs may be good as well.

It’s probably something you should train for, instead of doing drills where the opponent corals you and you try to kick for goal, maybe you gotta do the same drill with them actually tackling you while you try to dispose of it

 

[Milanista28]

It’s probably something you should train for, instead of doing drills where the opponent corals you and you try to kick for goal, maybe you gotta do the same drill with them actually tackling you while you try to dispose of it

I'm sure they can train this to an extent but some players just have a calmness under that sort of pressure, Pendlebury and Mundy are 2 of the best I've seen. And for a smaller/mid size bloke like our boys Trav Boak is a guy they should watch.

 

[Yoda_]

I'm sure they can train this to an extent but some players just have a calmness under that sort of pressure, Pendlebury and Mundy are 2 of the best I've seen. And for a smaller/mid size bloke like our boys Trav Boak is a guy they should watch.

Nic Martin after another pre season could see something special. He has that knack to (make it look like) time slows down. Just class

 

[MattyB3150]

Most of our guys aren't willing to get caught they all rush their disposals, Neale and Oliver aren't rushed they find the extra second more often than not. Stringer Langford and Perkins rarely panic under pressure and I think Hobbs may be good as well.

Spot on. Always more noticeable when you see how the good teams do it.

 

[MattyB3150]

Nic Martin after another pre season could see something special. He has that knack to (make it look like) time slows down. Just class

Very Pendlebury like

 

[faible]

I'm sure they can train this to an extent but some players just have a calmness under that sort of pressure, Pendlebury and Mundy are 2 of the best I've seen. And for a smaller/mid size bloke like our boys Trav Boak is a guy they should watch.

I'd be calling Boak ASAP about coaching aspirations. A guy who's got the absolute most out of himself.

 

[Duckworth]

Watching the game vs Carlton the forward line looks very stagnant. There doesn't seem to be a lot of leading up to the midfield ball carriers. Peter Wright often has among the most kms covered in the game, so he is moving, why no leads?
I wonder if midfielders don't kick to the forwards because they don't lead, or if the forwards don't lead because the midfielders can't hit them with a pass anyway.

It surely can't be part of the game plan, and to the eye, it looks like a turnover waiting to happen.

 

[CBombers17]

Can list experts / VFL watchers explain how much of an issue having a lot of young talls will be for our balance and list development (perhaps also taking our VFL shitness into account) ? I've read bits and pieces on here about a logjam etc but not the overall impact and/or comparable issues at other clubs past or present.

To me, unless he has some hidden forward craft, Bryan seems like an investment we didn't need to make for starters - and if that's the case he represents further development investment and time on our list we could be putting into a greater need (like building an actual top 4 midfield).

I've said on here for years that Dodoro lead Essendon has always been concerned with building the spine first at the detriment of a dominant midfield - how is this list rebuild shaping up any differently?

 

[faible]

Can list experts / VFL watchers explain how much of an issue having a lot of young talls will be for our balance and list development (perhaps also taking our VFL shitness into account) ? I've read bits and pieces on here about a logjam etc but not the overall impact and/or comparable issues at other clubs past or present.

To me, unless he has some hidden forward craft, Bryan seems like an investment we didn't need to make for starters - and if that's the case he represents further development investment and time on our list we could be putting into a greater need (like building an actual top 4 midfield).

I've said on here for years that Dodoro lead Essendon has always been concerned with building the spine first at the detriment of a dominant midfield - how is this list rebuild shaping up any differently?

We have 3 ruckmen on the list.

1 is injury cover in Phillips.
1 is the youngest starting ruckman in the AFL.
1 is developing in the 2s in Bryan.

Seems like smart development for me.

If Bryan works out but wants to leave, we get good trade value. If he works out and wants to stay, plenty of teams manage to play two ruckmen. If he doesn't work out, we'll draft another project ruckman to replace him.

 

[ant555]

Can list experts / VFL watchers explain how much of an issue having a lot of young talls will be for our balance and list development (perhaps also taking our VFL shitness into account) ? I've read bits and pieces on here about a logjam etc but not the overall impact and/or comparable issues at other clubs past or present.

To me, unless he has some hidden forward craft, Bryan seems like an investment we didn't need to make for starters - and if that's the case he represents further development investment and time on our list we could be putting into a greater need (like building an actual top 4 midfield).

I've said on here for years that Dodoro lead Essendon has always been concerned with building the spine first at the detriment of a dominant midfield - how is this list rebuild shaping up of clubs any differently?

When we drafted Bryan there was no guarantee on Draper . Lots of clubs run a couple of young rucks. It could well be Bryan ends up number one and Draper gets pushed out but my opinion is you do have a couple in the system.

 

[CBombers17]

When we drafted Bryan there was no guarantee on Draper . Lots of clubs run a couple of young rucks. It could well be Bryan ends up number one and Draper gets pushed out but my opinion is you do have a couple in the system.

Sure it can be argued we need to have 3 (plus 2MP) but are you happy with this particular pick or would you have done things differently (looked at a rookie selection or another mature backup)?

And what about the rest of the talls and list balance? Do you think we have set ourselves up well in this build so far?

 

[Dave]

Might mean sacrificing a highly credentialed assistant coach but I’d argue we need to break the bank on player development and strength and conditioning just as much as look at the type of player we get in the door.

What could possibly go wrong.........

 

[Lore]

Can list experts / VFL watchers explain how much of an issue having a lot of young talls will be for our balance and list development (perhaps also taking our VFL shitness into account) ? I've read bits and pieces on here about a logjam etc but not the overall impact and/or comparable issues at other clubs past or present.

To me, unless he has some hidden forward craft, Bryan seems like an investment we didn't need to make for starters - and if that's the case he represents further development investment and time on our list we could be putting into a greater need (like building an actual top 4 midfield).

I've said on here for years that Dodoro lead Essendon has always been concerned with building the spine first at the detriment of a dominant midfield - how is this list rebuild shaping up any differently?

The ruck division is fine, 3-4 rucks on a list is regarded as optimal. 4-5 used to be the standard but with list cuts clubs now run with 3. We have 3.5 with Cian McBride, who doesn't currently take up a list spot.

The bigger question is more to do with the ends: Wright Hurley Eyre Jones Baldwin Francis Voss Stewart Laverde Reid Zerk-Thatcher Brand... it's a lot of people competing for realistically 3-6 positions on the field.

There will be natural attrition, they won't all make it, and overall that's fine for a rebuild. But it means no depth in other areas, no injury cover, and inevitably a tumble down the ladder <even if you don't play like absolute garbage>.

You can see how skinny the yellow band is on the Essendon column... plenty of talls, plenty of smalls, 5 in the middle range. And then you look at North with 17 players in that 186-190 bracket, the opposite extreme. Most clubs have more like 8–12.

So what that sort of demonstrates to me is that our midfield should theoretically have players in the 190-195 and 180-185 sort of range as part of the rotation in lieu of the 186-190cm players that we don't have on our list. In effect, we should have a more diverse midfield in terms of the range of body sizes.



The thing that intrigues me is that we seem to have a cut off point at about 190cm where everyone over that height has to play at the ends (except for Cox and the rucks). Between 190-192 you can rotate between the arcs (Langford, Martin, Stringer, Cutler), but no taller.

Then the 185-190 bracket is Kelly (def), Heppell (def), Perkins (fwd), Redman (def), Durham (wing) ** with the obvious comment that Heppell used to be a mid and Perkins will be one in the future, while Redman was originally thought to play on a wing too. But the way it currently stands, all but Durham play at the ends.

Which means all of our proper mids are under 185.

So while we don't lack for players in the Bont/Fyfe sort of body size, we just don't draft players of that size for the midfield, and therefore they mostly don't have the ability (as much as Laverde and Francis were billed as potential mids when they were brought in, they actually play as undersized KPPs). Perkins is the closest thing to it lately (no pressure).

Playing list sorted by height, colour coded by position (with other assorted stats):

 

[eth-dog]

Can list experts / VFL watchers explain how much of an issue having a lot of young talls will be for our balance and list development (perhaps also taking our VFL shitness into account) ? I've read bits and pieces on here about a logjam etc but not the overall impact and/or comparable issues at other clubs past or present.

To me, unless he has some hidden forward craft, Bryan seems like an investment we didn't need to make for starters - and if that's the case he represents further development investment and time on our list we could be putting into a greater need (like building an actual top 4 midfield).

I've said on here for years that Dodoro lead Essendon has always been concerned with building the spine first at the detriment of a dominant midfield - how is this list rebuild shaping up any differently?

That's what Carlton have done, same with Freo and Brisbane. Melbourne are really the only top club currently that didn't do that but also not really as some of the KPP's they drafted simply didn't work out.

The drafting of Bryan was a good investment. You need multiple ruckmen on a list. And let me ask you this, apart from Warner (who is a very good player admittedly), who taken after Bryan would you have seen as a better investment for a "dominant" midfield? Bianco and Ralphsmith are more your wing types, Byrnes looks to be a good ordinary player and really on Ben Keays was a midfielder worth his salt in the rookie draft. We took Perkins a year later and Hobbs the year after that.

What could possibly go wrong.........

Whilst I'm pretty sure you're taking the piss, our strength and conditioning post saga has been pathetic. We've been scared to put weight on players and/or condition them correctly so that they're smaller and less fit than the opposition.

 

[eth-dog]

The ruck division is fine, 3-4 rucks on a list is regarded as optimal. 4-5 used to be the standard but with list cuts clubs now run with 3. We have 3.5 with Cian McBride, who doesn't currently take up a list spot.

The bigger question is more to do with the ends: Wright Hurley Eyre Jones Baldwin Francis Voss Stewart Laverde Reid Zerk-Thatcher Brand... it's a lot of people competing for realistically 3-6 positions on the field.

There will be natural attrition, they won't all make it, and overall that's fine for a rebuild. But it means no depth in other areas, no injury cover, and inevitably a tumble down the ladder <even if you don't play like absolute garbage>.

You can see how skinny the yellow band is on the Essendon column... plenty of talls, plenty of smalls, 5 in the middle range. And then you look at North with 17 players in that 186-190 bracket, the opposite extreme. Most clubs have more like 8–12.

So what that sort of demonstrates to me is that our midfield should theoretically have players in the 190-195 and 180-185 sort of range as part of the rotation in lieu of the 186-190cm players that we don't have on our list. In effect, we should have a more diverse midfield in terms of the range of body sizes.

View attachment 1424346

The thing that intrigues me is that we seem to have a cut off point at about 190cm where everyone over that height has to play at the ends (except for Cox and the rucks). Between 190-192 you can rotate between the arcs (Langford, Martin, Stringer, Cutler), but no taller.

Then the 185-190 bracket is Kelly (def), Heppell (def), Perkins (fwd), Redman (def), Durham (wing) ** with the obvious comment that Heppell used to be a mid and Perkins will be one in the future, while Redman was originally thought to play on a wing too. But the way it currently stands, all but Durham play at the ends.

Which means all of our proper mids are under 185.

So while we don't lack for players in the Bont/Fyfe sort of body size, we just don't draft players of that size for the midfield, and therefore they mostly don't have the ability (as much as Laverde and Francis were billed as potential mids when they were brought in, they actually play as undersized KPPs). Perkins is the closest thing to it lately (no pressure).

Playing list sorted by height, colour coded by position (with other assorted stats):

View attachment 1424364

Redman as a winger never existed outside of BigFooty seeing his aggression and wanting him there. He was drafted as a forward and then shifted back in year 2.

 

[citizen-erased]

Redman as a winger never existed outside of BigFooty seeing his aggression and wanting him there. He was drafted as a forward and then shifted back in year 2.

I think HF could be a go for him if we get a logjam at HBF with McGrath, D'Ambrosia, Laverde (when we play a 2nd tall KPD), Cox, etc.

Good roost, hard running, has the defensive edge about him.

 

[Lore]

Redman as a winger never existed outside of BigFooty seeing his aggression and wanting him there. He was drafted as a forward and then shifted back in year 2.

Drafted as a forward, but he played forward, mid and back as a junior. Modelled his game after Goddard – the comparison wasn't just about his face and complexion.

Pick 30: Mason Redman

Mason Redman is an exciting forward with an excellent burst of speed.

www.essendonfc.com.au

 

[Lore]

Might mean sacrificing a highly credentialed assistant coach but I’d argue we need to break the bank on player development and strength and conditioning just as much as look at the type of player we get in the door.

Or pay the luxury tax

 

[fairbump_playon]

I disagree unless there was something known at the time that would indicate what's unfolded.

There's a failed selection where it's poor recruiting because information is known, and then there's simply a selection that doesn't work out due to unforeseen factors.

A string of failed selections based on information that should be known at the time is on the recruiter, a selection that doesn't work out due to unforeseen factors isn't.

Mosquito's knee isn't what stopped his career.

Every player gets injuries. His lack of professionalism was the issue and could have been forseen.