The Otherworldly Circus - The America Thread

[Norm De Guerre]

Historically, there has been significant support for isolationist positions in the USA. Isolationism appears to be increasing again in recent years due to the state of the US economy.

Im not sure that the occasional bouts of US Isolationism are rooted in economics. My reading of history tells me that prior to WWII when the movement was last at its strongest it was one grounded by some who wanting to avoid another bloody European entanglement and others who followed noted anti-semite and sympathiser of all things fascist Charles Lindbergh.

Pearl Harbour put paid to all that. From that point on it was the beginning of the American hegemony and an economic post war boom.

The modern iteration is somewhat influenced by the past 30 years of pointlessly wasteful wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan. However, as is the way of all things on the right of America politically its is less about isolationism as it is getting instep with Donald Trumps preference for countries led by so called strongmen who like to indulge in a bit of totalitarianism. It's no coincidence that he speaks so highly of autocratic dictators like Xie, Putin, Jong-un, Orban and Mohammed bin Salman. All of whom rule with a singular ruthlessness, dismantle its institutions and crush dissent in an instant all the while operating above their countries laws. Sounds aspirationally familiar, eh?

Yet Trump does nothing but criticise and bully his supposed allies. This alone should be enough to disqualify him in my mind, but it seems that a large portion of the US population have daddy issues and desire the firm hand of a strongman. And if the price for that is the end of democracy otherwise known as...project 2025. Or as they themselves like to refer to it the second American revolution. Then they are ok with it as long as its their guy.

 

[Freshwater]

For all America’s issues 248 years ago today this amazing sentiment was declared. These 35-36 words, many say the greatest and most inspiring sentence ever issued? The fact that a nation built its framework on these enlightenment principles is something we all benefit from greatly. And as gross men and parties are doing their utmost to undo these ideals, we should always go back to them as the default. In America’s darkest hours Lincoln called upon it in the civil war, the ‘Gettysburg Address’. And Martin Luther King did so in the darkness of the civil rights era with his ‘I have a dream’ speech, wanting to ‘cash the check’ that the Declaration promised.

 

[BrisDog]

You seem to be the expert on that. Just trying to add some balance here. The Biden lies came from Seymour Hersh, not Politifact. It's not a black and white world but that's how you are conditioned to believe. Joe good, Orange man bad!

And then Biden grabbed them by the pussy, raped a woman in a department store and ejaculated in a pr0n start….oh wait!

 

[Scotch N Coke Monatore]

Im not sure that the occasional bouts of US Isolationism are rooted in economics. My reading of history tells me that prior to WWII when the movement was last at its strongest it was one grounded by some who wanting to avoid another bloody European entanglement and others who followed noted anti-semite and sympathiser of all things fascist Charles Lindbergh.

Pearl Harbour put paid to all that. From that point on it was the beginning of the American hegemony and an economic post war boom.

The modern iteration is somewhat influenced by the past 30 years of pointlessly wasteful wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan. However, as is the way of all things on the right of America politically its is less about isolationism as it is getting instep with Donald Trumps preference for countries led by so called strongmen who like to indulge in a bit of totalitarianism. It's no coincidence that he speaks so highly of autocratic dictators like Xie, Putin, Jong-un, Orban and Mohammed bin Salman. All of whom rule with a singular ruthlessness, dismantle its institutions and crush dissent in an instant all the while operating above their countries laws. Sounds aspirationally familiar, eh?

Yet Trump does nothing but criticise and bully his supposed allies. This alone should be enough to disqualify him in my mind, but it seems that a large portion of the US population have daddy issues and desire the firm hand of a strongman. And if the price for that is the end of democracy otherwise known as...project 2025. Or as they themselves like to refer to it the second American revolution. Then they are ok with it as long as its their guy.

I think you make a great point about historical motivations. Current isolationism sentiments I see from voters does seem economically motivated, the USA is laden with ever growing debt. But Trump is not that consistent or articulate enough about that position. Often he sounds gung ho, military might (expensive) as the main diplomatic tool.

I am not quite sure about the extent of Trump's support for the dictators in your 3rd paragraph, although the Trumpster is a great one for telling us all Xi and Putin are rooly smart, very intelligent. However, Trump was truly cringeworthy with his love letters buttering up of Jong Un as a containment strategy . I put the emojis in because I literally wept tears of laughter recalling his public utterances. He was also cringeworthily gushing about the Queen and the RF. And his commenting on Harry and Me-again, similarly cringeworthy and not befitting of a senior US politician. No doubt you could get me chuckling with more of his many moments.

In the debate, I did not like what he said about the Palestinian Isreal conflict. It is hard to listen to a senior western politician advocating more violence.

Finally his superman day one he will stop or fix so many complex issues, usually sounds not just implausible but risible. We should all play a drinking game with his next debate appearance, if there is one.

Anyway, I am on a phone, it is a bit limiting with chatting

 

[TMoney22]

Can you imagine the equivalent of fed square not being safe to go after 7pm along with 50% of the CBD not safe at any time of day. Even for men to walk by themselves. That's what it has now become and considerably more in the last 4 years. There is only one of the two evils that wants to improve that

 

[bresker]

"I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness..."

This Carl Sagan quote came up on my Facebook feed the other day. It is prescient.

So is John Gray, the British phiĺosopher

A Point of View - Trump's Second Coming - BBC Sounds

John Gray accuses US liberals of displaying a 'reckless hubris' in the election campaign.

www.bbc.co.uk

This is well worth 14 minutes of your time. An edit from Adam Curtis' political documentary 'Hypernormalisation' re: the rise of Trump from the beginning

 

[Bulldog1954]

Can you imagine the equivalent of fed square not being safe to go after 7pm along with 50% of the CBD not safe at any time of day. Even for men to walk by themselves. That's what it has now become and considerably more in the last 4 years. There is only one of the two evils that wants to improve that

Getting people off the streets who have committed 34 felonies and been found to be liable for sexual assault would be a good place to start.

 

[geoffjennings79]

Getting people off the streets who have committed 34 felonies and been found to be liable for sexual assault would be a good place to start.

He wouldn't last 5 minutes inside, although as an ex-pres would get a charmed accommodation arrangement, and likely isolated from any other inmates. I'd love to see him out in the yard with those same inmates though...

 

[Norm De Guerre]

I think you make a great point about historical motivations. Current isolationism sentiments I see from voters does seem economically motivated, the USA is laden with ever growing debt. But Trump is not that consistent or articulate enough about that position. Often he sounds gung ho, military might (expensive) as the main diplomatic tool.

I am not quite sure about the extent of Trump's support for the dictators in your 3rd paragraph, although the Trumpster is a great one for telling us all Xi and Putin are rooly smart, very intelligent. However, Trump was truly cringeworthy with his love letters buttering up of Jong Un as a containment strategy . I put the emojis in because I literally wept tears of laughter recalling his public utterances. He was also cringeworthily gushing about the Queen and the RF. And his commenting on Harry and Me-again, similarly cringeworthy and not befitting of a senior US politician. No doubt you could get me chuckling with more of his many moments.

In the debate, I did not like what he said about the Palestinian Isreal conflict. It is hard to listen to a senior western politician advocating more violence.

Finally his superman day one he will stop or fix so many complex issues, usually sounds not just implausible but risible. We should all play a drinking game with his next debate appearance, if there is one.

Anyway, I am on a phone, it is a bit limiting with chatting

Ive never been as grateful to spend 4 hours in emergency at the RMH as I was when the debate was happening.

I checked twitter soon after it started and then completely noped out.

I can't imagine how somebody who actually had skin in the game felt.

 

[Next Waiting]

Ive never been as grateful to spend 4 hours in emergency at the RMH as I was when the debate was happening.

I checked twitter soon after it started and then completely noped out.

I can't imagine how somebody who actually had skin in the game felt.

We all have skin in the game.

Which makes it fascinating and consequential in equal measure.

 

[dogwatch]

We all have skin in the game.

Which makes it fascinating, frightening and consequential in equal measure.

EFA

 

[Norm De Guerre]

We all have skin in the game.

Which makes it fascinating and consequential in equal measure.

I understand that.

But Im talking specifically about the people who will actually turn out to vote and those that looked at the debate and decide to sit it out and allow the consequences of that decision to just wash over them as it will the rest of the world.

 

[Next Waiting]

I understand that.

But Im talking specifically about the people who will actually turn out to vote and those that looked at the debate and decide to sit it out and allow the consequences of that decision to just wash over them as it will the rest of the world.

If they don't change the presumptive Democratic nominee I think that could play out.

My hope is they shake it up and change the nominee. It's a punt that might motivate the eco'd to do something/vote, as opposed to nothing/not vote.

No one can unsee that debate. Biden is a dead man walking staggering. Hopefully the Dems collectively don't sit idly by as they have to this point and let the dead man kill the rest of them.

 

[geoffjennings79]

Voter turnout in the first electorates(?) to report in the UK election was barely 50%. Usually go at around 70%. Voters with a choice are opting out en masse. I still prefer our system though.

 

[geoffjennings79]

If they don't change the presumptive Democratic nominee I think that could play out.

My hope is they shake it up and change the nominee. It's a punt that might motivate the eco'd to do something/vote, as opposed to nothing/not vote.

No one can unsee that debate. Biden is a dead man walking staggering. Hopefully the Dems collectively don't sit idly by as they have to this point and let the dead man kill the rest of them.

He's come out and confirmed he ain't going anywhere! Dems need to forcefully advise him. Or just tell him there's a special meeting happening, lead him to the broom cupboard and lock him in there for the next 6 months. (Figuratively, of course, I'm not advocating elder abuse.)

 

[Norm De Guerre]

If they don't change the presumptive Democratic nominee I think that could play out.

My hope is they shake it up and change the nominee. It's a punt that might motivate the eco'd to do something/vote, as opposed to nothing/not vote.

No one can unsee that debate. Biden is a dead man walking staggering. Hopefully the Dems collectively don't sit idly by as they have to this point and let the dead man kill the rest of them.

Biden has literally one path to walk if he's to remain the nominee. He needs to get out in front of reporters and take questions and show that he's still capable of robust conversations. Of course this isn't what they will do. They will roll him out in front of the cameras at every opportunity where he will read some presidential announcement off the tele-promoter and hope that nobody notices all of the strings being pulled. It's a dumb strategy, but it's the only one they have given Bidens hubris that he alone can beat Trump and his unwillingness to walk away with his dignity attached.

If they cannot find a way of around this issue he's about to take a giant shit all over his true legacy of getting Trump out of the Whitehouse the first time by allowing the raving lunatic a second go at it.

It's not all doom and gloom though. I think that theres a chance that people could be motivated enough for what a second Trump presidency may bring that they'd turn out in enough numbers to vote for Joe Bidens slightly warmed over corpse.

 

[Next Waiting]

Biden has literally one path to walk if he's to remain the nominee. He needs to get out in front of reporters and take questions and show that he's still capable of robust conversations. Of course this isn't what they will do. They will roll him out in front of the cameras at every opportunity where he will read some presidential announcement off the tele-promoter and hope that nobody notices all of the strings being pulled. It's a dumb strategy, but it's the only one they have given Bidens hubris that he alone can beat Trump and his unwillingness to walk away with his dignity attached.

If they cannot find a way of around this issue he's about to take a giant shit all over his true legacy of getting Trump out of the Whitehouse the first time by allowing the raving lunatic a second go at it.

It's not all doom and gloom though. I think that theres a chance that people could be motivated enough for what a second Trump presidency may bring that they'd turn out in enough numbers to vote for Joe Bidens slightly warmed over corpse.

We're putting a lot of faith in the American people?

American people! are we going to be unsurprised then disappointed and ultimately ?

 

[Freshwater]

The problem with Biden being the way he is, someone else is obviously presiding over the country. That person wasn’t elected by the people. Whoever he or she is, is an imposter, a bit like that great old funny movie Dave, with Kevin Kline and Sigourney Weaver. But it’s actually pretty disrespectful from both players and everyone in the know, giving it a wink and a nod. It’s like a secret coup.

 

[bresker]

I'm glad we have a strong black woman leading the US.



The rest of the interview may be fine. I didn't hear the whole thing. But the internet will now pounce on every error.

Major Democratic donors are threatening to withdraw funding unless he's replaced.

 

[bresker]

Voter turnout in the first electorates(?) to report in the UK election was barely 50%. Usually go at around 70%. Voters with a choice are opting out en masse. I still prefer our system though.

I'm in the UK at the moment, well a disputed part in my homeland of Northern Ireland. Things are so low key you'd barely notice an election was happening.

That said, I grew up in 'The Troubles' when elections could be a literal matter of life or death. It was chaos and bedlam.

But even watching things across the water in the UK. It's very very different to 1997 when Blair got in. People are deeply disillusioned with politics and feel powerless to change anything at the ballot box. Thankfully, this didn't translate into the lunatics taking charge.

For all its faults, the first past the post Westminster system does bring an air of stability & predictability to proceedings.

And as someone on the radio said, many of the German population have been trying to get rid of the Social Democratic party for years, but due to proportional representation and deals with smaller parties they're always in government.

 

[TMoney22]

Getting people off the streets who have committed 34 felonies and been found to be liable for sexual assault would be a good place to start.

You need to walk those streets mate, I guarantee your sentiment will change. We are lucky here and wouldn't comprehend how bad it is. I'd rather clean up those streets to be safe for locals, tourists and for the homeless. That should be #1 priority, not the orange one

 

[TMoney22]

I'm glad we have a strong black woman leading the US.



The rest of the interview may be fine. I didn't hear the whole thing. But the internet will now pounce on every error.

Major Democratic donors are threatening to withdraw funding unless he's replaced.

It's so sad, no one should be treated like that no matter what the situation is or political side. age catches up with everyone.

Whoever is actually running the US should be ashamed of themselves

 

[Arkangel]

For all its faults, the first past the post Westminster system does bring an air of stability & predictability to proceedings.

And as someone on the radio said, many of the German population have been trying to get rid of the Social Democratic party for years, but due to proportional representation and deals with smaller parties they're always in government.

To me, these two points seem contradictory. In the first, you imply that "stability and predictability" is a good thing; and in the second, that a party being in government for a long time is not. But what is that if not stable and predictable? (As an aside, the elections in Russia, North Korea etc. seem pretty stable and predictable… so I must admit I'm not convinced that those characteristics are inherently good!)

Tangentially related, but I think first-past-the-post is a truly awful system, the only possible upside of which is its simplicity. It's the only system I can think of where a vast majority of the electorate can think a candidate is the worst of the available options, and they can still be elected. It encourages people to vote against their explicit preferences to avoid their vote being wasted. It leads to situations where a deeply unpopular party will end up holding government for many terms simply because the opposition is split. In short, it converts the population's preferences into electoral outcomes in a really low quality way, which I think is the opposite of the ideal. I'm extremely glad we don't have it in Australia!

 

[bresker]

To me, these two points seem contradictory. In the first, you imply that "stability and predictability" is a good thing; and in the second, that a party being in government for a long time is not. But what is that if not stable and predictable? (As an aside, the elections in Russia, North Korea etc. seem pretty stable and predictable… so I must admit I'm not convinced that those characteristics are inherently good!)

Fair call, I am being slightly contradictory. To expand, a Labour party with a healthy majority is probably what the country needs right now, and that was provided . Uk politics has been such a shitshow the last few years with Brexit and then the Tory implosion, it doesn't need the pro-Trumpist Reform party having a heap of MPs in Parliament.

I haven't done the maths, but if PR was in place we could have a Conservative government in an alliance with Ulster Unionists, Reform, lib dems and independents. That would be a deflating result.

Lsbour still got the same amount of votes they did last time. Voters strategically got rid of the Tories in tight constitutiences by voting for alternatives.


My point about the German government is that some think proportional representation is a panacea for healthy , stable government . But a party many of the electorate want to see the back of can remain in power by getting into bed with smaller parties. Some of whom are strange bedfellows.

(Sorry for getting off topic)

 

[King Harold]

You need to walk those streets mate, I guarantee your sentiment will change. We are lucky here and wouldn't comprehend how bad it is. I'd rather clean up those streets to be safe for locals, tourists and for the homeless. That should be #1 priority, not the orange one

Just remember all those you speak of , are most likely to be carrying a gun.
Which party and leader just love guns strapped to every citizen ?