The Otherworldly Circus - The America Thread

[H Dolphin]

Governments of both colours allowed mass migration & will continue to allow it. They'll tell you they're only bringing in "the brightest and the best" and keeping out those awful boat people, but your eyes and ears know this isn't true. I have no problem with it. I'm a migrant , it would be bad form if I complained. I imagine it's the same in the US.

You can't put the genie back in the rose coloured bottle and fantasise about a homogeneous land where the milkman knew your name and whistled a happy tune . It's gone.

I took my kids to the mosque open day , we got a look round the place and had some lovely food. I've also got lots of experience teaching Lebanese, Iraqi, and Turkish kids. I didn't get the impression they wanted to white ant the country from within. To help with assimilation the AFL could send some ambassadors to their schools; they are lost to soccer.

Housing is an issue only in that we can't build them quick enough. There are a huge amount of empty homes in the towns I service for work. Dereliction is theft & vandalism .

 

[BEaston]

Elective surgery wait times balloon to record high across Australia, data shows

Nearly one in 10 patients are waiting longer than a year to be admitted, according to Australian Institute of Health and Welfare

www.theguardian.com

“We are seeing more and more Australians die waiting for these essential surgeries, with more than 12,000 deaths in 2022–23, up from 9,000 the year before. While these deaths may not have been because of delayed surgery, it is an alarming increase.”

Right, and since it's elective surguries the deaths are most likely completely unrelated to the wait.

It's a good one liner though.

 

[stefcep]

Candace Owens is now an "extremist" and there are calls for her to be cancelled.

“We are seeing more and more Australians die waiting for these essential surgeries, with more than 12,000 deaths in 2022–23, up from 9,000 the year before. While these deaths may not have been because of delayed surgery, it is an alarming increase.”

Right, and since it's elective surguries the deaths are most likely completely unrelated to the wait.

It's a good one liner though.

You have no way of knowing that to make that claim in red.

Elective surgery is neccessary surgery that can be delayed 24 hours. That's it. It does not mean there is no morbidity associated with the condition. It does not mean that alone or with other co-morbities it does not increase the risk of mortality. It does not mean that quality of life is not diminished. In short, its not an an arse lift or boob job we're talking about here.

 

[geoffjennings79]

Elective surgery is neccessary surgery that can be delayed 24 hours. That's it.

Wrong. There are 3 tiers of elective surgery in Australia. You have referenced tier 1 (which by definition requires clinical action "within 30 days"). Tiers 2 and 3 are 90 and 365 day thresholds respectively.
So your statement is incomplete and incorrect.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

Yes, of of course! Why wouldn't it be? They created the nation that is Australia.

Yes they did. And they saw the error of their ways when they could no longer attract the waves of post war European migrants that they once did after migration from those traditional catchments began to peter out in the 1970's.

Yes but those immigrants were also white Europeans. They assimilated.

And those that came after from other non European regions did and continue to do exactly that. They may not do it your exacting satisfaction. But the reality is that they want to work, be prosperous and raise their children in peace and quite.

And apart from food-which ALWAYS comes up in these pro-immigration debates- what else can you name?

Thats because Food brings people together and is a pretty significant point of difference for what was a mono-culture and a food desert before the various waves of immigration that the nation has seen since WWII.

The fact that nation is made up of people who can claim ancestry to over 300 countries and that there are 200 different languages spoken in this country. Regardless of what advocates of a White Australia policy or media hysterics would have us believe. Is a pretty good indication that their ability to assimilate whilst hanging onto aspects of their past and culture is an indication that immigration to this nation is the thing that has and always will define and make it what it is today. Its not without its issues, but its as intrinsic to the fabric of our modern society as jingoism and looking to the mother country for all that is great and good was to the past.

Technologically advanced cultures prevail over less advanced ones throughout history. Always was,always will be.

Thanks for stating the obvious.

Now. Do you want to actually address the issues that a government policy of forced assimilation had on indigenous people their culture and society? This isn't ancient history, nor can it glibly be passed off to an era of colonisation. It's a living memory and although the policy officially ended before my lifetime. I can't say whether it was within yours.

No they are not inherently racist. Its not racists to be in favour of selective immigration if it is more beneficial to your nation.

Yeah. It is.

Especially when it's benefit is exclusively slanted towards and entrenches a singular and select group of people.

People with European heritage. Like me. Somebody who has ancestry in this country going back to 1855. Somebody who had a privileged upbringing. Somebody who has never faced discrimination, in life nor in my career. Somebody who has never experienced a racial taunt. Nor been profiled by a policeman.

But I know many that have.

Ever been to a migrant citizenship ceremony and seen the pride and joy that people who are now predominantly from Asian, Middle Eastern, Pacific, South American and other backgrounds take in being able to call themselves Australian as they receive their certificate, plastic flag and wattle?

It's a fantastic and uplighting experience. You should try it some time.

Its a question of both. Neither policy has been articulated. In fact, our government has actively avoided even acknowledging the elephant in the room, until recently when the elephant grew so big their own voters couldn't find a roof over their heads anymore.

Politicians pander. In other news: Things that touch water get wet and the universe is vast.

The elephant that you speak of is the racism that is never far from the surface in a country and a segment of society that supported a selective immigration policy for decades. A sad demographic that continues to span the political divide, parts of my extended family, circle of friends, workmates and bigfooty.

If that makes me an outlier. Then I couldn't be happier.

 

[wayniac]

Good for you mate , but get off your high horse.
I believe what you have told me , but I assume you are calling me I am a liar ?

My story is 100% correct , unless my 2 mates are lying to me .
I admit I don’t know much about the current wait times in the health system and so bow to your “ expertise “

But I don’t give a shit what you believe, just take a Bex and have lie down.

Not calling you a liar. I'm pointing the reality of our public health system. This is not about what I believe. It's lived experience.

 

[King Harold]

Congress torpedoed it. He wasn't part of it.

All politicians care about being elected-if he's not elected he can't actually do anything

I don't understand your second point- open borders mean less illegal immigration? Since when?

Amazing how your brain can so easily exonerate a proven criminal and con man.
“ He wasn’t a part of it “ just laughable, when the bloke himself asked for all the credit.

I suppose he was an innocent bystander while his goons run the fake charity and fake university ?

Your credibility meter needs urgent repair.

 

[King Harold]

Not calling you a liar. I'm pointing the reality of our public health system. This is not about what I believe. It's lived experience.

I know you think my brain is broken , but you have escalated this discussion beyond anything I was talking about.
I was replying to someone who stated wait times for cataract surgery was 3 years.
The only reason I brought it up was because I ran into these 2 within a week who both had the surgery, and their experience was different.
I thought it just an innocent comment, but admit I know nothing more about the subject.

Anyhow , hope all your issues are behind you and you and your family are back to good health.

 

[Freshwater]

Where people are from isn’t close to the main problem with immigration at the most across the western world. The problem is sheer unsustainable numbers. England had over a million immigrants last year with a population of 50-60 million, ridiculous numbers. Australia had 650,000 with 25 million and America had God knows how many, 2 million? These numbers are unsustainable. The infrastructure can’t possibly keep up. If we are short of housing and hospital beds before they came, in what alternate universe does the situation improve when those numbers appear? This will then stir up racial tensions because people will think it’s their(the immigrants)fault. But it’s our fault for voting in these clowns. In England they’ve had two direct elections on the matter(Brexit and the election to ratify Brexit) the public overwhelmingly voted against more immigration and the political class did nothing…sorry worse that nothing they increased it.These politicians often don’t even live in the neighbourhoods where the majority of immigration lands. In Werribee we have both state and federal representatives that don’t even live in the areas they are meant to represent. But people still vote like it’s their footy team and still think Labor is for the working class like they were 60 years ago.
The immigration ceremonies are such beautiful warm occasions and the politicians want to be there and get their photos taken and then piss off to their ivory towers in Williamtown or the leafy eastern suburbs for example. Whilst the plebs are stuck traffic (such poor planning for tram and train lines in the western suburbs) in long queues looking for a rental home or hospital bed. This is not about race or cultures this is about egoistic political class with disdain for their own people who they never mix with anyway.

 

[geoffjennings79]

The elephant that you speak of is the racism that is never far from the surface in a country and a segment of society that supported a selective immigration policy for decades. A sad demographic that continues to span the political divide, parts of my extended family, circle of friends, workmates and bigfooty.

If that makes me an outlier. Then I couldn't be happier.

Too right Norm. I'm born and bred here, but from European post-war migrant parents/heritage.

My first and surnames are both relatively short, and pronounced completely phonetically. I'd say still on a weekly basis, people who interact with me unaware of my heritage, drift towards casual racism if they become aware of my name!

A mate of mine looks Asian/Chinese. His ancestors on both sides arrived in Australia in the 1850s. He, his parents and grandparents were all born and schooled here, and none of them spoke/speak Mandarin... or any other Asian language. He's one of the most Aussie people I know. Yet in his mid 50s he still has people speak to him - professionally, at the shops, at a restaurant, wherever - like he's a recent arrival!

And that's without even touching on some of my extended family, who are indigenous.

 

[King Harold]

Too right Norm. I'm born and bred here, but from European post-war migrant parents/heritage.

My first and surnames are both relatively short, and pronounced completely phonetically. I'd say still on a weekly basis, people who interact with me unaware of my heritage, drift towards casual racism if they become aware of my name!

A mate of mine looks Asian/Chinese. His ancestors on both sides arrived in Australia in the 1850s. He, his parents and grandparents were all born and schooled here, and none of them spoke/speak Mandarin... or any other Asian language. He's one of the most Aussie people I know. Yet in his mid 50s he still has people speak to him - professionally, at the shops, at a restaurant, wherever - like he's a recent arrival!

And that's without even touching on some of my extended family, who are indigenous.

So your not really Geoff Jennings

 

[LittleG]

Who knows? But he wasn't part of Congress.

Trump took credit for getting the bill blocked. He said so in a speech in Arizona…. Trump is proud of it!!!!

Please understand that we aren’t putting words into his mouth; he said it’s what he did.

 

[bresker]

Where people are from isn’t close to the main problem with immigration at the most across the western world. The problem is sheer unsustainable numbers. England had over a million immigrants last year with a population of 50-60 million, ridiculous numbers. Australia had 650,000 with 25 million and America had God knows how many, 2 million? These numbers are unsustainable. The infrastructure can’t possibly keep up. If we are short of housing and hospital beds before they came, in what alternate universe does the situation improve when those numbers appear? This will then stir up racial tensions because people will think it’s their(the immigrants)fault. But it’s our fault for voting in these clowns. In England they’ve had two direct elections on the matter(Brexit and the election to ratify Brexit) the public overwhelmingly voted against more immigration and the political class did nothing…sorry worse that nothing they increased it.These politicians often don’t even live in the neighbourhoods where the majority of immigration lands. In Werribee we have both state and federal representatives that don’t even live in the areas they are meant to represent. But people still vote like it’s their footy team and still think Labor is for the working class like they were 60 years ago.
The immigration ceremonies are such beautiful warm occasions and the politicians want to be there and get their photos taken and then piss off to their ivory towers in Williamtown or the leafy eastern suburbs for example. Whilst the plebs are stuck traffic (such poor planning for tram and train lines in the western suburbs) in long queues looking for a rental home or hospital bed. This is not about race or cultures this is about egoistic political class with disdain for their own people who they never mix with anyway.

If it's a question of geography , Holland is smaller than Ireland but 17 million people live there.

If it's a question of infrastructure , I'd blame Gina Rinehardt and the crew well ahead of immigrants.

Immigrants come because there are jobs and safety. Why are you allowed to say who can come here? Because you were born here?

I believe in a world without passports and borders. Nationalism being the last refuge of the scoundrel and that.

I'm with the writer Yuval Noah Harari, nationalism is just a story. A story used to send young men to die in ditches. Why should I feel comradeship with Pauline Hanson simply because we inhabit the same land mass?

If Jesus was born in the stable, he didn't become a horse.

 

[geoffjennings79]

So your not really Geoff Jennings

I can be whoever you want me to be KH!

 

[Freshwater]

If it's a question of geography , Holland is smaller than Ireland but 17 million people live there.

If it's a question of infrastructure , I'd blame Gina Rinehardt and the crew well ahead of immigrants.

Immigrants come because there are jobs and safety. Why are you allowed to say who can come here? Because you were born here?

I believe in a world without passports and borders. Nationalism being the last refuge of the scoundrel and that.

I'm with the writer Yuval Noah Harari, nationalism is just a story. A story used to send young men to die in ditches. Why should I feel comradeship with Pauline Hanson simply because we inhabit the same land mass?

If Jesus was born in the stable, he didn't become a horse.

I’m not blaming the immigrants. I’m blaming governments.
There is no way I believe in a world without passports. I believe in nations. Each nation has it own law, customs and culture. I think the modern political elite believes the this one world idea you’ve just put forward, and is trying to made this happen by by its own unhanded tactics. If they would ask the people, there is no way any peoples of any country would vote away their own country.

 

[bresker]

It's not the political elites as much as consumerism. Markets need consumers. Consumers follow the money. Politicians don't have much control over the market.

Is Aussie culture being damaged by immigrants ?
Is culture static?
Which Australian cultural practices do you engage in, and how are these being affected by immigrants ?
Do immigrants to Australua refuse to follow laws and customs?

If you've ever looked at the Indigenous pre settlement map of the continent, it's was a patchwork of different lands and languages for tens of thousands of years. Yet we're told a story of One Australia that is less than 150 years old. Who gets to gatekeep what is 'Australian Culture?'

 

[Freshwater]

If it's a question of geography , Holland is smaller than Ireland but 17 million people live there.

If it's a question of infrastructure , I'd blame Gina Rinehardt and the crew well ahead of immigrants.

Immigrants come because there are jobs and safety. Why are you allowed to say who can come here? Because you were born here?

I believe in a world without passports and borders. Nationalism being the last refuge of the scoundrel and that.

I'm with the writer Yuval Noah Harari, nationalism is just a story. A story used to send young men to die in ditches. Why should I feel comradeship with Pauline Hanson simply because we inhabit the same land mass?

If Jesus was born in the stable, he didn't become a horse.

If you did have this no passport world do you think you’d have something like the EU? No you wouldn’t, you’d have a mix between Communist Russia and China, with the theocratic middle east, and tin pot Africa all blended into a disaster.

It's not the political elites as much as consumerism. Markets need consumers. Consumers follow the money. Politicians don't have much control over the market.

Is Aussie culture being damaged by immigrants ?
Is culture static?
Which Australian cultural practices do you engage in, and how are these being affected by immigrants ?
Do immigrants to Australua refuse to follow laws and customs?

If you've ever looked at the Indigenous pre settlement map of the continent, it's was a patchwork of different lands and languages for tens of thousands of years. Yet we're told a story of One Australia that is less than 150 years old. Who gets to gatekeep what 'Australian Culture?'

Migrants do not damage the country, and I am happy for everyone of them. But the numbers are unsustainable at the moment. We haven’t been able to keep up with this unprecedented rise. This thread is trying to understand why people in America vote for arseholes like Trump? If you have parties that have the immigration policy you are arguing for I can see why they would.
If people who’ve paid their taxes all their lives can’t get hospital beds and rentals etc, their cities are turning into Asian megapolis’s. If governments like in England seem to have different interpretation of laws for different cultures. People don’t want this. They’ve tried to vote it down but even then the numbers keep rising. If you can’t see that this is frustrating people because you have a weird arse belief that there should be no borders you not seeing their points.

 

[bresker]

The EU happened because some 'civilised' Europeans wanted to end a series of barbaric wars fought across religion & nationhood going back centuries costing hundreds of millions of lives.

The Ottoman empire showed how multiple nations could live in harmony while Europeans were still burning people alive for wearing the wrong coloured hat.

 

[Freshwater]

The EU is new, and it wont last long term. Outside of that there is still barbarians with their brutal ways. Do you want their ideas in a ‘civilised’ society? Throwing gays off roof tops, female subjugation and circumsision, death to apostates etc? Dehumanising their enemies. Only nations can protect these basic rights.
And as Sam Harris rightly said the combination of democracy, capitalism and freedom lead to the wealth and safety and equality we now have, and for the first time in human history the working classes in these countries have a good life. Let’s not throw it away with rubbish ideas like open borders.

 

[King Harold]

I can be whoever you want me to be KH!

Ok , you’re

 

[bresker]

The EU is new, and it wont last long term. Outside of that there is still barbarians with their brutal ways. Do you want their ideas in a ‘civilised’ society? Throwing gays off roof tops, female subjugation and circumsision, death to apostates etc? Dehumanising their enemies. Only nations can protect these basic rights.
And as Sam Harris rightly said the combination of democracy, capitalism and freedom lead to the wealth and safety and equality we now have, and for the first time in human history the working classes in these countries have a good life. Let’s not throw it away with rubbish ideas like open borders.

I guess we should allow people fleeing such barbarity safe passage & a hearty welcome.

 

[Freshwater]

I guess we should allow people fleeing such barbarity safe passage & a hearty welcome.

Only to the level we can sustain. 650,000 is a Ponzi scheme to make governments seem like we are not in recession. We are struggling to house and care for who we have here at the moment. Ask our young folk how they are going with finding a home? Rent or buy? We also need those that value democracy, tolerance, freedom, choice and human rights. Pretty basic principles, not everyone will value them and I’d say no to those that can’t. Although you’d have no borders, which means no country, we are still a country with values.

 

[Next Waiting]

Kamala putting on a very good performance. Looks like a very united, strong and cohesive campaign.

My prediction. The Republicans are going to get deservedly smashed in congress and the senate this election and Kamala will be president.

 

[Next Waiting]

"Kamala Harris, for the people".

I thought that was brilliant. The 5 opening words she used as a prosecutor and the idea that a crime perpetrated against one is a crime against all and protecting the all represented by one (or a handful) in a court.

And the transference of that to the Presidency. Kamala Harris for the people. All the people.

It really was brilliant.

 

[Contador]

I believe in the brilliance of the free market except for at the border where I believe in very strong regulation to keep the poors out of our wealthy country. Don't want them spoiling our fun.