The Otherworldly Circus - The America Thread

[Pugz89]

Sorry Royale , I didn’t really answer your question.
I think this is possibly common ground.
Biden hasn’t done enough, they should have called Putins bluff.
We can go into more detail at another time, but yes a failing of this administration in my opinion.

Having said that ,Trumps power base are now Russia friendly, the Republican’s particularly in the house have been opposed to ongoing aid from the get go on Trumps orders.
He certainly has not helped in any way to support Ukraine and by extension end the conflict.
Why , answer is obvious to most.

Trump isn't in power though, so realistically what could he do to support Ukraine?

As for an earlier post, I am well aware that geopolitics is a moving feast, but all I was illustrating with the post was that he has actually been one of the more peaceful US presidents in the past 50 years, despite the narrative that he will cause WW3 when he is in office.

 

[King Harold]

Trump isn't in power though, so realistically what could he do to support Ukraine?

As for an earlier post, I am well aware that geopolitics is a moving feast, but all I was illustrating with the post was that he has actually been one of the more peaceful US presidents in the past 50 years, despite the narrative that he will cause WW3 when he is in office.

Who said he will cause WW3 if he gets back into office.

 

[Pugz89]

Who said he will cause WW3 if he gets back into office.

Plenty of people on socials. And plenty of people said he'd cause WW3 if he got into office in 2016 as well.

 

[Foxman98]

Plenty of people on socials. And plenty of people said he'd cause WW3 if he got into office in 2016 as well.

I'd point out the constant Hitler comparisons which might I point out is very disrespectful to the millions who were slaughter by his regime

 

[King Harold]

If it wasnt clear already, i'm leaning towards Trump just because I dont agree a lot with left leaning idealogy. That and Im a fascist nazi racist sexist homophobe. And whatever other label you can ascribe to someone who thinks differently. The biggest issue imo and its borne out in this echo chamber of a thread is the inability to accept that people think different. That people aren't a monolith.

This thread is quite the microcosm of leftist ideology.

For the record though, i'm ok with abortion laws being put back onto the states.

I think there should be more gun control in the US. Again, I think Australia has these laws correct. I can still get a gun if I want with some hurdles to jump and i'm restricted with the type of weapon I can get, that's ok imo.

In 2020 the Democratic party had much better candidates that I would've picked over Trump. Namely Andrew Yang and Tulsi Gabbard.

In 2016 i was aghast when Trump took office over Hillary. How could a TV personality become president over a career politician? That lead to an odyssey of doing my own research, and reaching different conclusions than those pedalled by mainstream media.

Now taken as a whole, in my opinion, what are the biggest problems in America? That's easy. Corporate Greed. Big Tech, Big Pharma / Medical Industrail Complex, Big College and the Military Industrial Complex. All these beauracrats throwing around money and campaign donations in order to further their own agendas. Squeezing the life out of Americans in anyway possible.

I think Trump at least acknowledges these issues, when he first campaigned to "drain the swamp" in 2016. And he's the only one talking to it now. Having RFK JnR join him makes absolute sense in this regard.

I like to think I have a more pragmatic view on things. I'm ok if you don't think the same.

I believe I am the same.
I have no ideology I follow no matter what. I have stated more times than I care to remember in this thread I have voted for both parties here many times.
As for the US domestic policies, well that’s for them, and we can talk about that another time, but Trumpism has taken them to some very dark places.

Where we have real disagreement is how much credit you are prepared to give Trump.
His closest advisors have told us over and over again , he thinks very little about anything and is totally transactional on what’s in it for him.
Watching him right through his initial candidacy ,has only confirmed for me that is 100% correct.
We have set a very very low bar if his character and past performance is acceptable now.

 

[Pugz89]

I believe I am the same.
I have no ideology I follow no matter what. I have stated more times than I care to remember in this thread I have voted for both parties here many times.
As for the US domestic policies, well that’s for them, and we can talk about that another time, but Trumpism has taken them to some very dark places.

Where we have real disagreement is how much credit you are prepared to give Trump.
His closest advisors have told us over and over again , he thinks very little about anything and is totally transactional on what’s in it for him.
Watching him right through his initial candidacy ,has only confirmed for me that is 100% correct.
We have set a very very low bar if his character and past performance is acceptable now.

Credit to you KH for engaging without getting personal. I tried engaging in this thread months back and just got shouted down, so didn't bother for a long time. I enjoy hearing other sides and discussing things that I may disagree about.

 

[King Harold]

I'd point out the constant Hitler comparisons which might I point out is very disrespectful to the millions who were slaughter by his regime

Agree Trump won’t gas millions of people, not for one moment do I think he is Hitler.
Bit hyperbolic, haven’t seen many saying he is Hitler on here , but happy to be proven wrong ?

“Rounding up political opponents” “executing Generals “ “ putting immigrants into camps “ “closing down media that is not friendly to you” or his spokesman ( the white nationalist) “ America is for Americans only “
The constant reference to vermin, rapist and murders when describing refugees.

Sounds very fascist to me. ( or perhaps look up the definition)

No Trumps not Hitler , but convince me he is not fond of a little bit of fascism.

 

[geoffjennings79]

Thanks NW. Having immediate family members who were victims of the German regime (I avoid even typing the "N" word as it disgusts me, and also avoid typing the name of their leader), the alignment to the principles, e.g. the words as you say, but also Trump's quest for the same "generals", is no coincidence. It's not like a single accidental overlap. It's been sustained alignment for some time.

I have never argued that Harris is a good candidate, but in the absence of a viable opponent, she becomes the default. There are several other better candidates (on both sides), but the situation isn't changing between now and Nov 5th.

Both sides pander to the Zionists in Israel. But only one side supports as much of a free world as possible under current geopolitical circumstances.

Anywho, only 7 days until the commencement of hostilities...

I'd point out the constant Hitler comparisons which might I point out is very disrespectful to the millions who were slaughter by his regime

Per my earlier post above, the comparisons are often from and generated by Trump, or Vance, or previous Trump administration staff. Or the actual word-for-word usage of speeches or quotes at his rallies.

Here's some context about my hatred for that regime, and anyone that tries to ride the coat tails of it (US or here).

My grandmother was killed by that regime, and my father spent 2 of his teen years in Dachau being firstly tortured (I won't go into details as it's too traumatic) and then used as slave labour, chroming aero engine parts (with no hint of PPE). As a 16yo malnourished and scared kid. He was incarcerated as a 'political prisoner' - he didn't even know what that meant as someone in his town dobbed him and a few mates in to the German occupiers of their land to save their own skin. And being a citizen of a German ally, the Red Cross parcels distributed to most of his fellow prisoners (POWs of various nations, civilians from many more nations) were never available to him. He was the 'enemy' even alongside fellow prisoners. Could have been worse though, his religion being RC. One of his mates was not so lucky, his religion led to a different part of the camp, and was never seen again.

My grandmother died while my dad was at Dachau, so she never knew if he survived or not. My father returned home in 1945 having walked from Dachau/Munich across the mountains to northern Italy. He arrived on the outskirts of his town to find his mother had been blown up a few weeks earlier. He never got over either experience.

I'm offended by any reference to that regime, which is why I refuse to ever type or utter the N word. Nor refer to their 'leader' by name, if I can possibly help it.

(In reference to Gaza and the broader region, I don't wish ill to people of Jewish faith, and I abhor the October 7 attack by Hamas. Totally condemn it. But I equally abhor and condemn the escalatory reprisal genocide being visited upon countless thousands of innocent Palestinians by the Zionist state of Israel. It's not a "war". It's not just genocide. It's gleeful, unfettered massacre, with cheerleaders around the globe. So on this issue, I'm equally disgusted by Biden, Trump and Harris. And Albanese and Dutton. They're all equally complicit. How any of them can look a Palestinian in the eye atm is beyond me.)

Anyway, bit of a ramble, but for anyone who cares, my personal history is the main, but not the only, reason I find Trump and his current acolytes to be a collection of odious human beings. Over and above the other pollies I mentioned above.

Not sure how long I'll leave this post here tbh. I've taken a while typing and editing it, probably reveals more about me and my family than I'd ever thought I'd share.

 

[King Harold]

Credit to you KH for engaging without getting personal. I tried engaging in this thread months back and just got shouted down, so didn't bother for a long time. I enjoy hearing other sides and discussing things that I may disagree about.

Look for me , I’m retired with a bit of time on my hands . So I am watching and reading a fair bit on the subject.
I hope people are not taking things personally.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and thank you , I appreciate your pat on the back for me.

But when someone tells me something is black when it’s easily provable it’s white , then I can lose patience.
It’s fair to say I have huge concerns about Trump, more for my grandchildren. Sure Trump won’t be around for ever, but we are setting the stage for a very ugly era in politics.
Australia will most likely follow.

 

[Fossie 32]

Thank you for sharing that geoffjennings79

 

[Fossie 32]

In case anyone thinks I'm some crazy leftie I only voted for either main party once [Jim Cairns ALP] and felt bad about that afterward so never again. I'm probs a little left of centre but that's all.

Just can't stand Trump and his crazies* !

* not all Reps

 

[yebach]

Sorry Royale , I didn’t really answer your question.
I think this is possibly common ground.
Biden hasn’t done enough, they should have called Putins bluff.
We can go into more detail at another time, but yes a failing of this administration in my opinion.

Having said that ,Trumps power base are now Russia friendly, the Republican’s particularly in the house have been opposed to ongoing aid from the get go on Trumps orders.
He certainly has not helped in any way to support Ukraine and by extension end the conflict.
Why , answer is obvious to most.

"He certainly has not helped in any way to support Ukraine and by extension end the conflict"

The goal is not to support Ukraine and end the conflict.

The current goal is to drag out the conflict and simultaneously bankrupt Russia and make trillions by building and selling bullets, bombs and rockets.

 

[Fossie 32]

Republicans are enraged their wives might 'secretly' vote for Harris

Right-wing Republicans are up in arms over a new campaign ad that reminds women their vote is private and they do not need to vote ...

www.dailykos.com

 

[glenashley]

Still don’t think she would endorse Trump.
I can’t find any reference ?

Chris Williamson pod a few days ago

 

[BrisDog]

In case anyone thinks I'm some crazy leftie I only voted for either main party once [Jim Cairns ALP] and felt bad about that afterward so never again. I'm probs a little left of centre but that's all.

Just can't stand Trump and his crazies* !

* not all Reps

Fossie - you’re perfect for the job as a Big Footy moderator. You’re objective, you’re not a snowflake and you obviously have an above average intellect.

It only makes sense that you hate Trump

 

[Fossie 32]

Fossie - you’re perfect for the job as a Big Footy moderator. You’re objective, you’re not a snowflake and you obviously have an above average intellect.

It only makes sense that you hate Trump

 

[BEaston]

I like to think I have a more pragmatic view on things. I'm ok if you don't think the same.

No, you'll just say that anyone that does operates in an echo chamber.

(in a thread littered with RW talking points, no less)

 

[Fossie 32]

No, you'll just say that anyone that does operates in an echo chamber.

(in a thread littered with RW talking points, no less)

OK from here nobody post anything that is 'having a go' at other posters, or however you want to define it, or it will be removed, as it just escalates.

Delete finger is getting itchy

 

[BEaston]

Delete finger is getting itchy

I mean delete away if you feel it crosses a line, but I don't see how its having a go Fos? I'm directly addressing points made in the post.

It doesn't add up to me espousing values of accepting others' views when the thread is labelled a microcosm of an ideology (as if disagreeing with Trump was an ideology in any case) or an echo chamber.

And all that is even before you see that half of the top 10 posters in the thread are right wing or conservative posters.

It's along the same lines of those wanting to shut down the thread. I thought they were supposed to be all about free speech? But anyone wanting it shut down has been conservative.

To me it reads that there's an uncomfortability in reading opinions that disagree, which is the irony I'm highlighting.

 

[BEaston]

That's on top of the big issues raised all relating to the extreme capitalist ideologies in the US, but that draws him towards the right? Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Next Waiting]

Republicans are enraged their wives might 'secretly' vote for Harris

Right-wing Republicans are up in arms over a new campaign ad that reminds women their vote is private and they do not need to vote ...

www.dailykos.com

Perhaps those enraged Republicans will just not let their wives out to vote lest they be tempted by the communist she-devil. I'm guessing the husbands of Faith, Hope and Charity will be opening supermarket home delivery accounts and the kids will be home schooled till Wednesday just to be sure.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

In 2016 i was aghast when Trump took office over Hillary. How could a TV personality become president

This is really telling.

It wasn’t all the horrendous things we knew about Trump at the time, it was that he was a reality TV star. That’s the thing that shocked you.

If that is how you saw it back then, then it’s an easy reach for you to believe he’s the best candidate now. All the awful stuff he says and does is not even a factor. All that other stuff doesn’t come in to yours and others minds when deciding who’s fit to be in such a powerful position.

It’s pretty disturbing to be honest.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

I dont blame anybody who doesn't read this long reply.

Scroll on by.

But Im going to do it anyways.

Sorry. Not sorry.

He was in charge for a four-year period, which is ample opportunity to escalate the conflict in Ukraine.

You cant look at the totality US foreign policy in isolation because it suits your narrative of Trump as a Dove of Peace.

Conflict in Ukraine had been simmering away since Russias annexation of Crimea in 2014. Followed by their doing the same in Donbas.

Personally, I don't credit the Obama administration for Russia not pushing forward from Crimea or Donbas into Kyiv then.

And I don't credit the Trump administration for the same later.

Is it also a coincidence that there were no major military conflicts that started/were escalated during Trump's presidency? (George H.W. Bush started the Gulf War, Clinton was involved in the Bosnian War, Bush went to Iraq and Afghanistan, and Obama got involved in the Syria stuff)

The U.S had just come through one of the longest periods of continuous war in history. Its population was exhausted and done with the cost and trauma of it and its aftermath. This just happened to coincide with Trump and now Bidens administration.

They'll shake that off in time.

The Syria stuff as you glibly refer to it also saw Russia's direct involvement in a proxy war that continues to see them prop up the Assad regime. It's a conflict that was the culmination of US involvement and destabilisation in the Middle East and it continued to escalate under Trump as the US and its allies sought to (rightfully) eradicate ISIS. This predominatly involved an aerial campaign but also involved boots on the ground training opposing forces and directing strikes of ISIS positions.

Did the US involvement in this conflict under the Trump administration stop Russian involvement. Nope. They both had their agendas and for the most part save a few brief contacts. Kept out of each others way.

It's why the idea of Russia being afraid of Trump or was waiting for his defeat before rolling on Kyiv is a nonsense. Putting aside the two years of Covid which affected Russia as much as anywhere. All that the Trump years saw from a Russian perspective was a wider window for it to continue building its forces. If Trump never came to power the result would've been the same. Russia was always going to invade the rest of Ukraine and it was going to do it to a timeline of its choosing.

Knowing that there was little that the US could or would do about it.

"If we consider the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the Gulf War, the war in Afghanistan and the Iraq War, Trump joins Barack Obama, Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter, Gerald Ford, Richard Nixon, John F. Kennedy and Dwight D. Eisenhower in not having officially brought the United States into a new war since 1945.

Conflict isn't defined by its scale.

Every single one of those administration's was involved in foreign conflicts or outright invasions of countries. It makes little difference if those conflicts were ongoing, in support of other parties, involved boots on the ground, were proxy wars, the US multinational interests or the CIA destabilising nations.

It's the privilege that their post WWII hegemony bought them.

Putin understands this and wants a slice of teh same for all of the trauma that the Soviet Union went through during WWII. Not to mention the loss of territory that they'd experienced after those countries regained their autonomy after the fall of the Soviet Union. This has left him seriously aggrieved and pining for the good old days of Russia strong.

More conservatively, if we consider these five wars as well as other military operations listed above, the presidents who have not started a new war or been involved in escalating or starting a new military operation would include Trump (if we consider action in Syria an extension to the Obama administration’s presence), Carter and Ford." https://www.reuters.com/article/wor...s-led-the-nation-into-new-wars-idUSKBN2A22QR/

Do know why you can cite both Ford and Carter in the same context as Trump as not starting a new war?

It's because both of those administrations were dealing with the immediate aftermath of another 20 year long misadventure in Vietnam. It's little wonder that Carter in partular wanted to find another way. The irony of this is that it was another disastrous foreign misadventure when they tried to rescue the US embassy hostages that brought about the end of his administration.

Losing wars tends to bring a level of introspection to a nation that has to foot the bill for the trauma that politicians cause.

But not for long because they then elected the original MAGA man Ronald Regan. A man not averse to throwing the U.S' weight around. It could be argued that he was the person who inadvertently set in train the events that would unfold in Ukraine 40 years later when he forced the Soviet Union into an arms race that they could ill afford. One that would see the entire rotten edifice crumble and then eventually reform as the kleptocracy of the Russian Federation.

Remember the Trump/Kim Jong Un Twitter stuff and everyone was saying it was going to start WW3, yet the two eventually met twice in person.
I mean that is a pretty crazy coincidence if true.

Who was saying that?

There's a reason that US presidents didnt meet with the likes of Kim Jong Un. Its gives them an air or legitimacy and is a PR coup for their home audiences who get to see their tin pot dictator on an equal footing with the worlds most powerful man.

Trump's behaviour and the emboldenment of Kim Jong Un since has done nothing to change the view that Trump got played as the fool that he is. The reason that there hasn't been a conflict in Korea since the cessation of hostilities is the reality that the Norths military is a decrepit joke of obsolete Soviet era equipment. It's a paper tiger hiding behind the threat of Nuclear ballistic missile program that didn't slow down one bit during Trump and Kim Jong Un special bromance. Indeed they tested a ICBM that had a theoretical range to reach the US during the Trumps term.

It was just PR bullshit for rubes to eat with a spoon.

Interestingly, Harris delivered remarks about Ukraine and NATO support on February 19, 2022, and Russia invaded Ukraine five days later... Don't think that speech antagonised Putin at all?

This is asinine take on events.

She was in Germany to shore up European allies for an invasion that US intelligence and the Biden administration knew was imminent. Indeed Zelenskyy came away from their meeting without much in the way of commitment other than placing more sanctions on Russia and a good luck buddy.

That they were able to stop and then push back Russia from the gates of Kyiv was all on Ukraine and what the Obama and later Trump administrations had done in helping completely restructure Ukraines once completely corrupt military into a credible force for the invasion that they knew was coming.

Other than that the Biden/Harris administration has done the bare minimum to help Ukraine. All its done is contribute financial and military aid with its delivery of nearly obsolete equipment or munitions that were at or near time expired and due for remanufacture or disposal. Something that has been a boon for U.S arms manufacturing as it empties its old stock and replenishes them with new.

The few pieces of game changing equipment that they've provided have been in such limited numbers that they are little more than tokens. For instance, they've sent a grand total of 31 Abrams tanks to a conflict that has consumed well over 5000 armoured vehicles. The potential offensive game changers that they have provided like ATACMS come with restrictions on where and how they can be used. Its what all Ukrainian strikes within Russia are carried out by locally manufactured drones, legacy missiles or cruise missiles supplied by Europeans.

As for the actual invasion it takes months if not years to build up a the >200,000 strong force that Russia had massed on Ukraines border to stage an invasion on the scale that it intended.

So putting aside the established fact that Russia had kicked off the war with its annexation of Crimea and The Donbas in 2014. Russia had been building up its forces on the border of Ukraine for a full scale invasion with a goal of taking the rest since early in 2021. Soon after which Putin made the preposterous demand that NATO troops withdraw from all former Soviet Republics and that Ukraine should in effect hand over its sovereignty to them by not applying to join the EU or NATO.

This was just the pretext for a war that Russia had spent the last 15 years and much of its European derived petroleum wealth rebuilding its completely corrupt and hollowed out post soviet military for.

To suggest tha tHarris' vast to Germany was the final straw that saw Putin pull the trigger on the invasion is just a nonsense that ignores Putins bone headed historical revisionism about the region.

As is the idea that none of this would've have happened if Trump had won a second term.

The entire conflict has very little to do with the U.S. its internal politics or NATO expansionism.

It has everything to do with Russias historical expansionism and Putins desire to reinstate the Russian Empire.

Viewing the conflict or US foreign policy through the prism of partisan hackery is just that partisan hackery.



Still not sorry.

/.

 

[Pugz89]

Look for me , I’m retired with a bit of time on my hands . So I am watching and reading a fair bit on the subject.
I hope people are not taking things personally.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and thank you , I appreciate your pat on the back for me.

But when someone tells me something is black when it’s easily provable it’s white , then I can lose patience.
It’s fair to say I have huge concerns about Trump, more for my grandchildren. Sure Trump won’t be around for ever, but we are setting the stage for a very ugly era in politics.
Australia will most likely follow.

It's interesting though. Using a colour as an analogy. You see green, but someone who is colour blind sees a different colour. Neither are wrong, they just have different views of the same thing. I think politics can be like that at times.

And adding to that is the tribal nature politics has become. Closer to home, Andrews was a love or hate premier here in Vic, Trump is much the same and that idea of a politician being cast like that is becoming increasingly more common.