Mega Thread The Western Bulldogs - The Sack Macca saga

[TedDougChris]

jakeystringer - you've posted that a couple of times in recent threads - do you intend to comment or just spam tanks in every thread ?? Igloo, can you keep an eye out for random tanks please, we aren't Melbourne here...

 

[ThirdLegUp]

Shit i didn't even notice it was a post, i thought it was your signature

 

[the dog's kennel]

I know it's already been said - but to reiterate, St Kilda are about 2 years behind us in their list development.

They have a whole bunch of quality 28 and 29 year olds left. Their wheels have only just begun to fall off. But be sure of this, they will fall off and they will fall off badly.

Watching them last night - I know they won the chocolates - but I have rarely seen a more selfish individualistic display (especially from their younger players). Literally every few minutes I saw a St Kilda player perform some blatantly selfish action, torching a team-mate in the process. Especially in the forward line. In particular, the number of Saints who turned their back on the play after marking 50-55 out was astonishing and unforgivable. Riewoldt's selfless brilliance is papering over some massive chasms. When selfish players experience genuine failure things get extremely ugly.

I know we aren't exactly flying along, but I reckon that St Kilda have Melbourne potential in a few years. I'm predicting a double rebuild.

Anyway - I know that's massively off-topic. But I bring it up to a) rebut the "Look at St Kilda" line. and b) Note one thing that McCartney has already definitely achieved. He is making the Dogs are far more selfless side.

Even when the chips are down, there is very little individualistic play in our team (possibly too little!). By contrast, in 2006-8 there was plenty. Eade seemed to be trying to iron that side out of the Bulldogs, and i think he had some success in that area. But there were plenty of examples of it even last year. And BMac seems to have clamped down on it even more - possibly swinging too far the other way. In the short term that creates uninspired, uncreative play. But in the long run we'll be better off for the discipline. As I suspect St Kilda will discover.

BMac may prove to be a dud coach. But even if he is, I'm certain that 3 years of him will leave a legacy that another coach will build upon.

 

[staphy]

So I take it you think Sheedy should be removed right now as well as McKenna and when GWS are struggling again next year when Cameron takes over he should also be removed as there are no excuses and age is no excuse, it will be 22 on 22....

GCS have had a year up on GWS and yes McKenna should go, GWS have already replaced Sheedy with Cameron, If Cameron fails to deliver in a couple of years he to will be removed.

Melbourne should also keep Neeld as its not his fault the list is so shit. Same reason we should keep Macca

 

[Zgope1]

GCS have had a year up on GWS and yes McKenna should go, GWS have already replaced Sheedy with Cameron, If Cameron fails to deliver in a couple of years he to will be removed.

Melbourne should also keep Neeld as its not his fault the list is so shit. Same reason we should keep Macca

Yes it is.

They were on an upward curve with at least SOME senior players playing well under Bailey. In one year he had alienated 3 of their better senior players in Martin (you should've heard some of the positive chat there used to be about him), Moloney (ex b & f and currently a solid contributor for brisbane) and Rivers (ex AA defender). He also alienated Green who had been a much better captain than the current two by stripping him of it due to an obsession with youth. He also made good players under him play crap football. Halting the development of Trengove by giving him captaincy. Took Jamar from a brilliant tap ruckman to a shadow of his old self. Frawley set to leave the club by year's end.


He then brought in 3 players that he couldn't keep in the side after one week in Pederson, Byrnes and Rodan. Meanwhile, Mccartney has brought in one of this year's best taggers, and two best 22 defenders in Young and Goodes. Stevens has showed some good and bad and is 21 years old so may just do that for a little while.

Mark Neeld is the worst coach i've ever seen.

 

[StringyDog]

GCS have had a year up on GWS and yes McKenna should go, GWS have already replaced Sheedy with Cameron, If Cameron fails to deliver in a couple of years he to will be removed.

Melbourne should also keep Neeld as its not his fault the list is so shit. Same reason we should keep Macca

No not a couple of years, people here have given McCartney 1 year and decided so according to them Cameron has just next year to vastly improve their side (he won't). The big difference to Melbourne is they not competing at all, not even tackling and pretty much every player bar 1-2 have gone backwards.

 

[Mofra]

They were on an upward curve with at least SOME senior players playing well under Bailey. In one year he had alienated 3 of their better senior players in Martin (you should've heard some of the positive chat there used to be about him), Moloney (ex b & f and currently a solid contributor for brisbane) and Rivers (ex AA defender). He also alienated Green who had been a much better captain than the current two by stripping him of it due to an obsession with youth. He also made good players under him play crap football. Halting the development of Trengove by giving him captaincy. Took Jamar from a brilliant tap ruckman to a shadow of his old self. Frawley set to leave the club by year's end.


He then brought in 3 players that he couldn't keep in the side after one week in Pederson, Byrnes and Rodan. Meanwhile, Mccartney has brought in one of this year's best taggers, and two best 22 defenders in Young and Goodes. Stevens has showed some good and bad and is 21 years old so may just do that for a little while.

Mark Neeld is the worst coach i've ever seen.

Don't forget trading for all of Clark, Dawes & Pederson whilst signing Hogan.
Clark is a gun and Hogan will be special, but then why burn picks on Dawes & Pederson?

B-Mac says he'll "build from the inside out" and the trade strategy (low value picks) seems to mirror this.
Neeld wants to be "the hardest team to play against" yet their trade strategy doesn;t match this philosophy.

Neeld may be able to coach but the strategy is confused.

 

[Zgope1]

Don't forget trading for all of Clark, Dawes & Pederson whilst signing Hogan.
Clark is a gun and Hogan will be special, but then why burn picks on Dawes & Pederson?

B-Mac says he'll "build from the inside out" and the trade strategy (low value picks) seems to mirror this.
Neeld wants to be "the hardest team to play against" yet their trade strategy doesn;t match this philosophy.

Neeld may be able to coach but the strategy is confused.

Whose to say Neeld won't push Hogan out to the wolves like he did Toumpas? The poor kids are getting brought into a team where the guy has no idea. Toumpas clearly wasn't ready and it's because his coach hasn't instructed him properly. Compare his first few games to the games that Macrae and Stringer had to earn with method and clear goal setting.

Clark is a very expensive gun that isn't getting on the park. No doubt he's good when he gets on the ground but compare that to filling raw kids with self-belief like Jones and Roughead and i know the option i'd take.

Also the Hogan trade was overs either because they're dumb arsed negotiators or because they wanted a deal for Viney which is cheating. Either way it doesn't reflect well.

 

[Mofra]

^ From what I hear they got Hogan at fair price. We're going gaga about maybe getting Boyd when Hogan is and will remain the better KPF.
In any case I don't understand the need to trade so heavily for Dawes considering they secured Hogan and Pederson was also brought into the club and their most glaring concern is their midfield.

 

[Zgope1]

^ From what I hear they got Hogan at fair price. We're going gaga about maybe getting Boyd when Hogan is and will remain the better KPF.
In any case I don't understand the need to trade so heavily for Dawes considering they secured Hogan and Pederson was also brought into the club and their most glaring concern is their midfield.

What do you mean from what you hear they got a fair price? If Melbourne offered pick 4 what could've bettered the pick?

I rate Hogan but i rated Toumpas too. Everyone would've taken him over Macrae but one's played a lot better at AFL level and the other one hasn't and i'll say this, it's not down to the individual. It's how the coach founds the system they're in.

Any way it seems we're in agreement apart from a couple of small details so best to leave it maybe

 

[ErnieSigley]

I could probably accuse Multhouse of failing in any one or all of those last night.

Were they uncompetitive last night like we have been?

 

[Igloo]

Were they uncompetitive last night like we have been?

For 3 quarters, yes. Completely. Saints ran all over them.

 

[ErnieSigley]

And let's be honest. There were games last year where we were rubbish. Everyone agrees that. Richmond, the Eagles and Adelaide this year weren't much chop either. But we haven't been uncompetitive for 16 or 17 or 18 games straight.

So it's acceptable to be uncompetitive in 3 out of 7 games, a qtr or 2 of another?

 

[ErnieSigley]

For 3 quarters, yes. Completely. Saints ran all over them.

You obviously mark us with a different pen.
They copped a few injuries early, fought hard and never more than 6 goals down.
They were at no stage out of the game except for the last minute.

 

[gimp!]

You obviously mark us with different pen.
They copped a few injuries early, fought hard and never more than 6 goals down.
They we are no stage out of the game.

They were shit and they lost.

 

[ErnieSigley]

They were shit and they lost.

Yes
What's it got to our coach and his coaching record?

 

[Igloo]

You obviously mark us with different pen.
They copped a few injuries early, fought hard and never more than 6 goals down.
They were at no stage out of the game.

Saints inaccuracy early kept them in it. In the first quarter they kicked 5 behinds in a row. At no stage in the first 3 quarters did they look like they'd even get close at the end.

 

[ErnieSigley]

Saints inaccuracy early kept them in it. In the first quarter they kicked 5 behinds in a row. At no stage in the first 3 quarters did they look like they'd even get close at the end.

You can say that(inaccuracy) about North on Saturday too then. Many here say we were competitive but Carlton weren't?
Maybe to went to bed because the fact is they did get close. Or missed the start cos they were in front til late in the first.

 

[gimp!]

Yes
What's it got to our coach and his coaching record?

Uncompetitive.

 

[ErnieSigley]

Uncompetitive.

Yes we have been.

 

[gimp!]

Yes we have been.

Who?

 

[ErnieSigley]

Who?

Us

 

[Igloo]

You can say that(inaccuracy) about North on Saturday too then. Many here say we were competitive but Carlton weren't?
Maybe to went to bed because the fact is they did get close. Or missed the start cos they were in front til late in the first.

We kept the game even, and took a couple of leads the whole game up until 3 quarter time.
Carlton got their shit blown out of the water, regardless of injuries. They were playing like shit.

And don't try and be a smart arse. They were in front, yep. Maybe you can piece together the reason for that.
They were smashed in general play. Anyone casual footy observer could see that.

 

[ThirdLegUp]

Were they uncompetitive last night like we have been?

As Igloo say, for 2&half / 3 quarters saints had the game wrapped up...then did their best to throw it away.

So it's acceptable to be uncompetitive in 3 out of 7 games, a qtr or 2 of another?

No it isn't, but what is even more unacceptable is a supposed adult supporter carrying on like the footy show Tigers kid they had on 2 weeks ago.

 

[lachy]

McCartney's future will be decided by the progession of both individuals and of the team.

Ernie, the professor and the Athenian cannot provide anything other than results to support their arguments as that is all there is.

Reality is time after time they have been asked to provide names of coaches who could have done better with this list and how they could have done better. Of course they have never done so as in their eyes results are all that matters and superior coaches have the ability to make sure a group of 13 to 15 of less than 50 game players are always competetive and should beat and be totally competetive against teams with well less than 5 players with less than 50 games experience. This is despite the fact this has NEVER in the last 100 years of AFLL/VFL been the case, but in their opinion Macca should be able to do this. This is a fact not an opinion.

It is their opinion which they are entitled to and trying to argue with them is pointless as those who support Macca, such as myself can only look at individuals improving at contests, those starting to get spread, one quarter, 2 quarters sometimes 3 where genuine improvement and competetivness is shown. We understand that this rebuild WILL take 5 years to be playing the kind of footy we all want to see, but we also know we will have to wait the 5 years, 3 1/2 from now to have proof.

We recognise it may not work, but why are we patient, because for 68 years nothing else has worked and we have never in that time patiently built a team for the purpose of performing in September in the future.