Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 6 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[Charlie Bucket]

Sam Power will need to be Houdini to keep all of Smith, JUH and Tim. He would have done a good job to keep 2 them providing one is JUH.

I think the good list management would be to send one of the 3 off to another club. Smith preferably.

Would free up cap space to sign the other 2, and earn us a 1st round draft pick.

Stretching to sign them all could blow up in our face I reckon.

 

[dergert]

The one time in our club's history we have two star Key Forwards- of course every other club is jumping through hoops to sign them.

 

[Howyagarnn]

I think if we lost JUH my enjoyment of football would plunge to the level of apathy. Just saying.

Was thinking the same thing today

 

[Charlie Bucket]

Even if players "are motivated by money" this idea that they shouldn't be - that they should be grateful for the club in drafting and investing in them or whatever, or otherwise take less money to play in the destination they want to - is still very much old-fashioned thinking.

Wouldn't us, a small club, want the players in general to be motivated by money, because this puts us on an equivalent level with other clubs, rather than the perception of us being a "small club" and other players would sign for "big clubs" for less money than what we would pay them?

I would want players like Patrick Dangerfield to be motivated by money. It meant he wouldn't have two-thirds of a career as one of the best players in the league but barely being paid as a top-50 player allowing Geelong to recruit other players and win the flag in a year that we also had the chance of winning the flag.

Still lots of loyalty in the AFL comparable to most other national sports around the world. Not
many players leave clubs for a bigger pay check. Usually it’s for opportunity. Otherwise majority of lists stay intact if not for de-listings.

Suggests club loyalty is a current way of thinking.

I dread the day our sport becomes like the NBA and the like where players come and go season to season and fair weather supporters follow their favourite players around the league.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Still lots of loyalty in the AFL comparable to most other national sports around the world. Not
many players leave clubs for a bigger pay check. Usually it’s for opportunity. Otherwise majority of lists stay intact if not for de-listings.

Suggests club loyalty is a current way of thinking.

I dread the day our sport becomes like the NBA and the like where players come and go season to season and fair weather supporters follow their favourite players around the league.

I agree that's what makes our code so great, but at the same time, if any individual player doesn't agree with it, you can't blame them, especially as the clubs don't have any return obligations to the players and one only has to look at how Collingwood treated Treloar for evidence of that.

 

[VitalDread]

Contracts talk change week by week
But this is the latest I have

This source was the one that said no one was being fired during the big bevo thread

Marra- 8 Years
English- 6 years
Bazza- 7 Years
Sanders- 4 years
Bont- 6 years

That's the latest talk about the expected deals

 

[dogwatch]

I agree that's what makes our code so great, but at the same time, if any individual player doesn't agree with it, you can't blame them, especially as the clubs don't have any return obligations to the players and one only has to look at how Collingwood treated Treloar for evidence of that.

And suddenly - with their drop in form - we're seeing people here say "let's put Macrae and/or Daniel on the market and get something for them while they still have some value".

You can't have it both ways folks.

Personally I hope we can see out the contract of both of them (and that they can play some decent footy over that time of course). Neither player has held a pistol at the head of the list manager, even when they were at their playing peak. It'd be poor form to now tell them they are surplus to requirements after signing them to long contracts.

 

[BLACAE]

Contracts talk change week by week
But this is the latest I have

This source was the one that said no one was being fired during the big bevo thread

Marra- 8 Years
English- 6 years
Bazza- 7 Years
Sanders- 4 years
Bont- 6 years

That's the latest talk about the expected deals

More than happy with those numbers, although I would offer Marra 10. Thing with Timmy is that if Darcy goes past him, he can play the Lobb role exceptionally well.

On SM-G990E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[GetDimmaBack]

And suddenly - with their drop in form - we're seeing people here say "let's put Macrae and/or Daniel on the market and get something for them while they still have some value".

You can't have it both ways folks.

Indeed we can't - or shouldn't.

I've known for a while that Jacko had a standing offer from the Swans for at least 5 years (around 2015 - 2020ish).
I'd be surprised if CD hasn't had some clubs chasing him, especially the SA pair.

Wouldn't send a great message to our list, now and in the future, if we tried to dump them any time soon.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

If Lobb was on a 2 or 3 year contract, I'd feel much better about any large contract for Tim. I feel like we're going to be paying him $500k+ to play VFL in 2025 & 2026 and then potentially have $4 million tied up purely on the ruck & KPF positions (Naughton - $1 mil, Tim - $1 mil, JUH - $1 mil, Lobb - $500k, Darcy - ?). Unless of course it was heavily front loaded.

I'm really uncomfortable with a 7 year contract for Tim. 5 years is the most I'd offer but I doubt we have a choice.

Lobbs contract expires at the end of 2025. Right around the time that Darcy will be physically ready to take over Lobbs role of swingman playing ruck/forward on a full time basis. If Darcy's form dictates he replaces Lobb sooner and Lobb plays out his career at Footscray then so be it. I dont think it's a coincidence that Darcy's next contract isn't due until after Lobbs current deal expires. If we've learnt anything during Sam Powers tenure it's that he is an expert at juggling the intricacies of list management and contract negotiations.

Its why Im supremely confident that if we choose to we will be able to re-sign all 3 of JUH, English and Smith before they come out of contract at the end of the year.

As an aside. People need to get their head around the fact that right across the league as the salary cap continues to expand that the elite end of each teams lists will see longer contracts where $900+k is the errrr... the norm. The games been heading in this direction for a decade or more.

As an extra aside. Of course clubs are going to discuss the possibility of luring JUH with a huge offer. It doesn't make him any more "gettable". Just like Sam Power would have a spreadsheet of every single player coming out of contract and what it might take to pry them out of their current club.

The only difference is that he isn't compelled to create content for the evening news or any of the dreck masquerading as football analysis across shows TV, Radio or the internet. It's ridiculous that they can spin stories out of literally nothing just because a player is coming out of contract. I dont typically watch the evening news but I happen to have seen bits over the last two nights on 9 where Tom Morris? managed to tell essentially the same absolutely hollow story about Max Holmes from Geelong's contract status each night!

Its beyond a joke.

 

[The Inbetweener]

Contracts talk change week by week
But this is the latest I have

This source was the one that said no one was being fired during the big bevo thread

Marra- 8 Years
English- 6 years
Bazza- 7 Years
Sanders- 4 years
Bont- 6 years

That's the latest talk about the expected deals

Bont’s next contract will be really interesting in terms of the dollars. His new contract would start when he’s 30.

 

[weltschmerz]

Apparently Sydney's having a salary cap crunch because they're paying more for Grundy than they initially expected. Doesn't stop every media outlet from saying they'll throw millions at JUH.

 

[Mojorisin]

Isn’t the period of cap pressure in the immediate few years?

I’d be thinking the last 2-3 years would have him earning far less % of cap space than the first 2-3?

I don't really like the idea of giving anyone long contracts into their 30s especially someone with his injury history. The money is less of a sticking point for me then the length of the deal.

 

[doggies ftw]

If it goes bad it’s not the end of the world, another club will take them on as we’ve seen recently even if you have to pay a little bit of the contract. Figure it out when the time comes, in the current climate I’m taking that risk for having your key guys signed up long term

 

[dogwatch]

If it goes bad it’s not the end of the world, another club will take them on as we’ve seen recently even if you have to pay a little bit of the contract. Figure it out when the time comes, in the current climate I’m taking that risk for having your key guys signed up long term

That's exactly what we did with Daniel and Macrae.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

As an extra aside. Of course clubs are going to discuss the possibility of luring JUH with a huge offer. It doesn't make him any more "gettable". Just like Sam Power would have a spreadsheet of every single player coming out of contract and what it might take to pry them out of their current club.

The only difference is that he isn't compelled to create content for the evening news or any of the dreck masquerading as football analysis across shows TV, Radio or the internet. It's ridiculous that they can spin stories out of literally nothing just because a player is coming out of contract. I dont typically watch the evening news but I happen to have seen bits over the last two nights on 9 where Tom Morris? managed to tell essentially the same absolutely hollow story about Max Holmes from Geelong's contract status each night!

Its beyond a joke.

My favourite is the pre-season story about the player who is out of contract at the end of the following season, of which the reporting itself says that they'll stick at that club until they're out of contract.

In other words why should I care about a player who may or may not move clubs, in the 2025-26 offseason, who might help a team win the 2026 flag two and a half years from now, when there's an actual game of footy being played? It was a little bit like the Tim English contract disucssion ... at the start of last year. Before he became an All-Australian, which changed things. Before his partner moved back to Melbourne .. which changed things. Before West Coast shat the bed all season ... which changed things. Before we failed to make finals ... which changed things. And he's still got a whole another season that might change!

 

[Dale4captain]

Marra will either be signed for 4 years (taking him to FA and his big lifetime deal) or he will sign a 10 year deal with us on absolutely mega money.

 

[The Inbetweener]

Marra will either be signed for 4 years (taking him to FA and his big lifetime deal) or he will sign a 10 year deal with us on absolutely mega money.

If I were him I’d do the 4 years. Who knows what the cap will be from there.

 

[_Cerberus_]

I still personally think we signed Naughton to way too long a contract. He is yet to kick 70 goals, and not many players still play well deep in their 30s. Hope it is front loaded, so we are not tied down should he lose form at the back end. No team will likely take on a big contract for a player 30 and out of form, and a delisting means we will still have to pay it out. But add another two players to that. Makes navigating the cap and list management harder. Especially when Darcy and Sanders are still to show their max potential.

Which is why I hope we are not offering anyone else 10 year deals. I don't care if we give them big bucks, they deserve it. Just worried about the long term implications of the list should we have multiple players on massive long term deals. Don't want to return to the days stuck at the bottom of the ladder for ages because we can't keep a balanced list together. Geelong is a good example of managing a cap and list well.

That being said, I am over the media and their "this team needs a forward, and this one is out of contract, lets put the two and two together" lazy journalism. Sometimes it feels they are deliberately trying to create unrest, in the hope the team that they support can land the said player.

I'm confident Jamarra will sign on with us.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

My favourite is the pre-season story about the player who is out of contract at the end of the following season, of which the reporting itself says that they'll stick at that club until they're out of contract.

In other words why should I care about a player who may or may not move clubs, in the 2025-26 offseason, who might help a team win the 2026 flag two and a half years from now, when there's an actual game of footy being played? It was a little bit like the Tim English contract disucssion ... at the start of last year. Before he became an All-Australian, which changed things. Before his partner moved back to Melbourne .. which changed things. Before West Coast shat the bed all season ... which changed things. Before we failed to make finals ... which changed things. And he's still got a whole another season that might change!

Like the wider media. Once social media became the dominant force for the dissemination of news. It was all over for AFLMedia as a once cloistered industry was opened to anybody with something to say and a profile to build. Thus bringing us into an age where the churn and creation of content is the only thing that matters. Accountability for said content is never a consideration, because there's no way that anybody in their right mind can keep up with, let alone fact check it months later. They shit it out and then move onto the next dodgy kabab of a story. Its the cycle of life for guys desperate to be the games agenda setters.

 

[Mofra]

Contracts talk change week by week
But this is the latest I have

This source was the one that said no one was being fired during the big bevo thread

Marra- 8 Years
English- 6 years
Bazza- 7 Years
Sanders- 4 years
Bont- 6 years

That's the latest talk about the expected deals

That would be amazing - and Buss?

I think keeping everyone is going to be a very fine line.

 

[doggies ftw]

Marra will either be signed for 4 years (taking him to FA and his big lifetime deal) or he will sign a 10 year deal with us on absolutely mega money.

Is this from what you’ve heard or just gut feel?

I feel like a 4yr deal makes sense for all parties too but at the same time would be happy to just have him locked in at the club for life. To put it simply I can’t see there being a time in the next 10 years where we’re not happy to have him on the list, and I think it’s a bit different for your key forwards than mids & rucks etc where the game can move quickly. Having both Naughty and Marra locked in for the next good part of a decade just leaves us in such a good position to not have to worry about that part of the ground - they both play a brand of game that isn’t exactly going to fall out of style

 

[dogwatch]

Like the wider media. Once social media became the dominant force for the dissemination of news. It was all over for AFLMedia as a once cloistered industry was opened to anybody with something to say and a profile to build. Thus bringing us into an age where the churn and creation of content is the only thing that matters. Accountability for said content is never a consideration, because there's no way that anybody in their right mind can keep up with, let alone fact check it months later. They s**t it out and then move onto the next dodgy kabab of a story. Its the cycle of life for guys desperate to be the games agenda setters.

When discussing the media a number of us make misjudged comments like "lazy journalism" (I've probably been guilty of that) when in fact most of these self-appointed experts have been nowhere near a tertiary course in journalism. Or done a proper internship. They aren't a journos' vomit-stained bootlace.

They are mostly self-obsessed vacuous types who are trading on the fact that they once played for an AFL side. Or else were too scrawny or the wrong gender to play serious footy as a kid but have insinuated themselves into the company of their sporting heroes by honing their ability to be controversial and confrontational while gravely pretending to be knowledgeable about the subject matter. Their media masters and we consumers are part of the problem because they encourage and reward this behaviour. Clicks, ratings and advertising are what's driving the race to the bottom.

This was a problem long before social media (anyone remember Lou Richards, Jack Dyer and Bob Davis?) but there's no doubt that social media has accelerated the decline.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

I agree that's what makes our code so great, but at the same time, if any individual player doesn't agree with it, you can't blame them, especially as the clubs don't have any return obligations to the players and one only has to look at how Collingwood treated Treloar for evidence of that.

They aren’t the same thing though.

The club makes those decisions for the benefit of the club and supporter base. The player makes those decisions (to leave) for their own benefit.

The clubs obligation is to the supporter base, not the player.

Of course the players going to be looked upon negatively.

This isn’t sport in the US or Europe. The clubs success is for the supporter base, not the benefit of the clubs majority owners.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

They aren’t the same thing though.

The club makes those decisions for the benefit of the club and supporter base. The player makes those decisions (to leave) for their own benefit.

The clubs obligation is to the supporter base, not the player.

Of course the players going to be looked upon negatively.

This isn’t sport in the US or Europe. The clubs success is for the supporter base, not the benefit of the clubs majority owners.

But if that's your logic Treloar loved the Pies supporter base and was beloved by the Pies supporter base. You ask Collingwood fans and I'm absolutely certain that they would have taken a hit on trying to win flags in the future, in order to keep Treloar on his 'bad' contract.

Yet Pies still treated him like absolute shit and pushed him out of the club in a ruthless manner. It was some of the more despicable ways in which a player was treated, for doing nothing wrong and everything right, by a club. If you need a reminder his character was significantly impugned, which for anyone with a sense of the goodness of people and a sense of morality should be outrageous. Keep in mind that Treloar was entirely sincere when he went to the club when he concerned about his own mental health, and the difficulties of managing his family situation up in Queensland, the Collingwood club turned around and used that against him to claim that they weren't trading him out for purely salary cap reasons (they were). Even after Buckley (and the club) was utterly ruthless toward Treloar as a person, Treloar was still the bigger man and some months later came out and said he still appreciated what Buckley did for him as a person, wanted to put it behind him, and showed the world what a kind and genuine soul he was. A few links of a reminder of what went down:

'There will be a time when we talk': Treloar opens up on Bucks fallout

Adam Treloar opens up on relationship with Nathan Buckley, his mental health struggles and his long-distance relationship

www.afl.com.au

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/entertainment/adam-treloar-says-being-open-about-his-mental-health-came-back-to-bite-him-at-collingwood/news-story/fed213ed647fa32b194418ba65a21e15

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/news/nathan-buckley-does-not-want-to-see-a-repeat-of-racism-incidents-at-collingwood/news-story/a7eda99c516276b7e0d813e25c5f94f7

“To have that used against her and me was probably the most hurtful thing because the story it should have been was it should have been about this incredible woman who sacrificed her body for nine months to have Georgie and not play at the professional level and to make a comeback at a club she really wanted to be at,” he said.

“For her to do that and then that message to be missed was really challenging for me.”

“(I’m) disappointed with everything that happened,” he said.

“I still think about it now and it can still really pull at the heartstrings for me because it took a long while after that trade period for me to get over the fact that I wasn’t playing for Collingwood any more.

“It was a place that I love… I loved playing for the footy club and I wanted to retire there.

“It took a while for me to get over the fact that I wasn’t playing for the footy club.”

He said it had affected his love for the game as well.

“In my mind, it’s made footy more of a business, and it is a business at the end of the day. If the club wants you to move on, they’ll do anything they can to move you on, and I well and truly experienced that.”

The point being, if that Treloar had his time over, he would have put his foot down earlier in his career, got paid more money and insist that the club hold him to his contract. But his gentle soul and genuine good-natured character, almost naive to a fault, meant that he didn't do that, and the ruthless power of the club took over.

It was actually a minor catalyst (the Lumumba report obviously being the main one) that led to regime change at the club, and it was that very regime change at the Pies that has meant that the footy world has sort of moved on from those actions by the Pies.

Treloar did all the "right" things by the Pies club and its supporter base. His initial contract, though large enough to contribute somewhat to their eventual salary cap issues, was below market rate. He was engaged with the fans, renegotiated his contract with the club to help them out, tried his heart out for the club. And the above eventuated.

I get that the Dogs are not Collingwood, but in this context, I have zero issue with Tim English - who by all reports is entirely happy with the Bulldogs and has no desire to leave the Bulldogs - nontheless understanding that he has a right to try and make as much money as he can. Not for the money in and of itself, but because things like the salary cap only really have meaning and context if players act that way.