Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 3

[fishardansin]

This is how you know MAGA in all its forms are as bad as Putin. Orban is a poster boy for the MAGA Republicans and is in bed with Putin.

I just hope they cam get Orban out of Hungry before that country ends up like Belarus

Social Conservative Neoliberals (Republicans from Reagan to McCain) are perhaps the most dangerous organisation for the future of humanity. However, the evolution of the Republican Party since the Tea Party is a lurch to outright fascism. Orban and Putin are also fascists. It makes sense that they share a lot of supporters.

Putin is caught up with blood and soil fascism that poses an existential threat to all of the nations he sees as part of the Russian empire. Under the leadership of Trump the MAGA movement is a mixed bag for the rest of the world. Having the richest nation actively working against climate change action is an existential threat to humanity, but he isn't projecting the same military power around the globe as the neocons of old. However, his removal of the Iran deal, dithering (not withdrawing but not taking action) in all of the other arenas as well as cosying up to the worst of the worst while making the relationship with China more adversarial has upset global order.

As someone who sees the US as a plague on humanity, I don't mind Trump. His leadership is hurrying the demise of the US. I would like a world with China and its model of state control competing with a humane version of capitalism from Europe for global hegemony, as well as the continued investment in Africa.

I personally would like to see a breakup of NATO. I'd like to see an army for the EU and I'd like to see more multilateral agreements in Africa, ASEAN, etc. This war shows us that if Eastern European countries can join the EU and a coalition of forces will beat Russia, but not be capable of invading Russia. The Belt and Road project is bringing Central Asia together. The US should be back in its box in North America. There also needs to be a multilateral agreement with South American nations to push the US back. Bolivia, Venezuela and Brazil's current govt could make an agreement that forms the basis of it.

Russia invading Ukraine is a strategic disaster for Putin because it only serves as a very good reason for more countries to join NATO. The multilateral agreements I am talking about above should have economics and trade at their core. Not the military like NATO. However, it should also have something like shared defence. In other words, you invade one you invade them all.

 

[fishardansin]

This is a really interesting interview of a Russian POW and dubbed into English.

 

[Cap]

Social Conservative Neoliberals (Republicans from Reagan to McCain) are perhaps the most dangerous organisation for the future of humanity. However, the evolution of the Republican Party since the Tea Party is a lurch to outright fascism. Orban and Putin are also fascists. It makes sense that they share a lot of supporters.

Putin is caught up with blood and soil fascism that poses an existential threat to all of the nations he sees as part of the Russian empire. Under the leadership of Trump the MAGA movement is a mixed bag for the rest of the world. Having the richest nation actively working against climate change action is an existential threat to humanity, but he isn't projecting the same military power around the globe as the neocons of old. However, his removal of the Iran deal, dithering (not withdrawing but not taking action) in all of the other arenas as well as cosying up to the worst of the worst while making the relationship with China more adversarial has upset global order.

As someone who sees the US as a plague on humanity, I don't mind Trump. His leadership is hurrying the demise of the US. I would like a world with China and its model of state control competing with a humane version of capitalism from Europe for global hegemony, as well as the continued investment in Africa.

I personally would like to see a breakup of NATO. I'd like to see an army for the EU and I'd like to see more multilateral agreements in Africa, ASEAN, etc. This war shows us that if Eastern European countries can join the EU and a coalition of forces will beat Russia, but not be capable of invading Russia. The Belt and Road project is bringing Central Asia together. The US should be back in its box in North America. There also needs to be a multilateral agreement with South American nations to push the US back. Bolivia, Venezuela and Brazil's current govt could make an agreement that forms the basis of it.

Russia invading Ukraine is a strategic disaster for Putin because it only serves as a very good reason for more countries to join NATO. The multilateral agreements I am talking about above should have economics and trade at their core. Not the military like NATO. However, it should also have something like shared defence. In other words, you invade one you invade them all.

I don't have the same negative feelings towards the US as you.

I do prefer European politics and policies I agree, however they also have their shortcomings (Putin anyone).

You probably won't like me for this, but a Strong, democratic US is imo a net positive for a country like Australia and probably a large portion of the world.

 

[jatz14]

Perhaps he resolves it by taking Putin's job. Strong message in the Wagner propaganda showing him as a man of the people, meeting new recruits, going to the front lines, etc. Presents him in a different light to the Russian people compared to Mr P sitting at his 100m table. Interesting times, but not ones in which he should accept a cup of tea from Putin or stand too close to windows.

Added - he is standing for election in 2024 according to a Sunday Times article. Needs to keep his troops under his command, very important for successful election wins in Russia.

I think Putin is more worried about others taking his job, and Prigohzin is a useful counter to that.

I think the idea is, if there is an attempted military takeover, Putin calls on Wagner to protect him, leaves loyalist and opposition military units to slug it out.

On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Fire]

This war shows us that if Eastern European countries can join the EU and a coalition of forces will beat Russia, but not be capable of invading Russia.

There is no potential future where the West is interested in invading Russia, regardless of how strong either side is.

The only thing they would be interested in is integrating it as a potential liberal democracy. But if they decide to stay a despotic poverty stricken shithole then its not going to phase them too much in the grand scheme of things.

And even if Russia was ever viewed as a threat to be invaded by the west, a scenario I can't envision, then demographics and geography are against them. Russia will only get weaker as we get deeper into this century. Their population is plummeting, their up and coming skilled workers have largly flead or are dead, and carbon energy is going to be steadily phased out. All the while China is relentlessly growing under their weak belly. They will never be a global power again.

 

[jatz14]

Social Conservative Neoliberals (Republicans from Reagan to McCain) are perhaps the most dangerous organisation for the future of humanity. However, the evolution of the Republican Party since the Tea Party is a lurch to outright fascism. Orban and Putin are also fascists. It makes sense that they share a lot of supporters.

Putin is caught up with blood and soil fascism that poses an existential threat to all of the nations he sees as part of the Russian empire. Under the leadership of Trump the MAGA movement is a mixed bag for the rest of the world. Having the richest nation actively working against climate change action is an existential threat to humanity, but he isn't projecting the same military power around the globe as the neocons of old. However, his removal of the Iran deal, dithering (not withdrawing but not taking action) in all of the other arenas as well as cosying up to the worst of the worst while making the relationship with China more adversarial has upset global order.

As someone who sees the US as a plague on humanity, I don't mind Trump. His leadership is hurrying the demise of the US. I would like a world with China and its model of state control competing with a humane version of capitalism from Europe for global hegemony, as well as the continued investment in Africa.

I personally would like to see a breakup of NATO. I'd like to see an army for the EU and I'd like to see more multilateral agreements in Africa, ASEAN, etc. This war shows us that if Eastern European countries can join the EU and a coalition of forces will beat Russia, but not be capable of invading Russia. The Belt and Road project is bringing Central Asia together. The US should be back in its box in North America. There also needs to be a multilateral agreement with South American nations to push the US back. Bolivia, Venezuela and Brazil's current govt could make an agreement that forms the basis of it.

Russia invading Ukraine is a strategic disaster for Putin because it only serves as a very good reason for more countries to join NATO. The multilateral agreements I am talking about above should have economics and trade at their core. Not the military like NATO. However, it should also have something like shared defence. In other words, you invade one you invade them all.

This is a classic example of be careful what you wish for.

I think your vision ends modern civilisation personally

On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[LittleG]

Social Conservative Neoliberals (Republicans from Reagan to McCain) are perhaps the most dangerous organisation for the future of humanity. However, the evolution of the Republican Party since the Tea Party is a lurch to outright fascism. Orban and Putin are also fascists. It makes sense that they share a lot of supporters.

Putin is caught up with blood and soil fascism that poses an existential threat to all of the nations he sees as part of the Russian empire. Under the leadership of Trump the MAGA movement is a mixed bag for the rest of the world. Having the richest nation actively working against climate change action is an existential threat to humanity, but he isn't projecting the same military power around the globe as the neocons of old. However, his removal of the Iran deal, dithering (not withdrawing but not taking action) in all of the other arenas as well as cosying up to the worst of the worst while making the relationship with China more adversarial has upset global order.

As someone who sees the US as a plague on humanity, I don't mind Trump. His leadership is hurrying the demise of the US. I would like a world with China and its model of state control competing with a humane version of capitalism from Europe for global hegemony, as well as the continued investment in Africa.

I personally would like to see a breakup of NATO. I'd like to see an army for the EU and I'd like to see more multilateral agreements in Africa, ASEAN, etc. This war shows us that if Eastern European countries can join the EU and a coalition of forces will beat Russia, but not be capable of invading Russia. The Belt and Road project is bringing Central Asia together. The US should be back in its box in North America. There also needs to be a multilateral agreement with South American nations to push the US back. Bolivia, Venezuela and Brazil's current govt could make an agreement that forms the basis of it.

Russia invading Ukraine is a strategic disaster for Putin because it only serves as a very good reason for more countries to join NATO. The multilateral agreements I am talking about above should have economics and trade at their core. Not the military like NATO. However, it should also have something like shared defence. In other words, you invade one you invade them all.

China builds 2 new coal power stations per week.

They are also actively working against humanity but in a much bigger way. They run a police state, with no regard to human rights.

There is nothing good about China. Once the world puts a price on Carbon emissions, ALL of Chinas wealth and manufacturing becomes uncompetitive. Until they change their ways, the US under Trump is better.

 

[Chief]

the US under Trump is better.

lol!

Though this thread is more for day to day war stuff. There is another thread covering the broader scope.

 

[LittleG]

lol!

Though this thread is more for day to day war stuff. There is another thread covering the broader scope.

0.0000001/100 is more than 0.0000000001/100

But I do agree with your point.

 

[CD Xbow]

I think Putin is more worried about others taking his job, and Prigohzin is a useful counter to that.

I think the idea is, if there is an attempted military takeover, Putin calls on Wagner to protect him, leaves loyalist and opposition military units to slug it out.

On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app

I think it's the opposite. Prigohzin is a potential challenger not a chum. This current attempt to pull mercenary forces under the army is an attempt to bring him to heel. What ever we think, it's all extra chaos and disunity on the Russian side, which is good for Ukraine. Personally I think it's all symptoms of the ongoing collapse of Russia.

 

[wannabejack]

[Above] and this both from Denys Davydov's TG.

RF convoy suffers artillery fire. Seems to be in the region just south of Energodar.
View attachment 1709805
View attachment 1709806

[TG post]

Ukrainian Armed Forces destroy BM-21 Grad missile system and convoy of Russian military equipment with high-precision GMLRS M30A1 rounds

The Ukrainian Defence Forces launched strikes against Russian troops in two sections of the front. As a result, several pieces of military equipment were hit.

gagadget.com

 

[fishardansin]

China builds 2 new coal power stations per week.

They are also actively working against humanity but in a much bigger way. They run a police state, with no regard to human rights.

There is nothing good about China. Once the world puts a price on Carbon emissions, ALL of Chinas wealth and manufacturing becomes uncompetitive. Until they change their ways, the US under Trump is better.

China still burns less coal than us per capita and has the right to build the wealth that we did by burning coal in the early 20th century unless we want to share the wealth created by our industrialisation that was funded by literal global genocide. Most of China's coal burning is to serve companies created by and for Western consumption.

Westerners who talk like you do are fun and sound like people who look back with fondness at how the mafia kept crime under control.

This police state has three times the population of the US yet fewer prisoners. It never ran an empire based on slavery and genocidal expansion. In fact, they were invaded and humiliated for over a century to force them to allow British companies to sell opium to them. I would not like to live under the sort of leadership that lead to the Cultural Revolution or the Tiananmen Square massacre. However, Chinese citizens in general are happier with their govt than we are with ours, apart from their complete failure to produce a good covid vaccine and obsession with eradication. China is currently rapidly industrializing and building the infrastructure that will restore the riches of central Asia and Africa. I would prefer that they were doing so with a much smaller carbon footprint. However, their capability of turning their whole economy green rapidly is more possible than ours due to the central planning.

It is funny you think the US is better under Trump. The MAGA movement ticks every box of Umberto Eco's definition of fascism and Trump is their charismatic leader.

The US is the problem in that relationship. They could treat China as a friendly rival and support their growth. They could work together to reduce the carbon output of all humanity. They, however, prefer to remain on a war footing because in their eyes China is committing a mortal sin. Having an economy that is larger than the US. Imagine if China was as aggressive as the US and patrolling up and down their west coast like the US does the China Sea.

 

[Nothing]

China still burns less coal than us per capita and has the right to build the wealth that we did by burning coal in the early 20th century unless we want to share the wealth created by our industrialisation that was funded by literal global genocide. Most of China's coal burning is to serve companies created by and for Western consumption.

Westerners who talk like you do are fun and sound like people who look back with fondness at how the mafia kept crime under control.

This police state has three times the population of the US yet fewer prisoners. It never ran an empire based on slavery and genocidal expansion. In fact, they were invaded and humiliated for over a century to force them to allow British companies to sell opium to them. I would not like to live under the sort of leadership that lead to the Cultural Revolution or the Tiananmen Square massacre. However, Chinese citizens in general are happier with their govt than we are with ours, apart from their complete failure to produce a good covid vaccine and obsession with eradication. China is currently rapidly industrializing and building the infrastructure that will restore the riches of central Asia and Africa. I would prefer that they were doing so with a much smaller carbon footprint. However, their capability of turning their whole economy green rapidly is more possible than ours due to the central planning.

It is funny you think the US is better under Trump. The MAGA movement ticks every box of Umberto Eco's definition of fascism and Trump is their charismatic leader.

The US is the problem in that relationship. They could treat China as a friendly rival and support their growth. They could work together to reduce the carbon output of all humanity. They, however, prefer to remain on a war footing because in their eyes China is committing a mortal sin. Having an economy that is larger than the US. Imagine if China was as aggressive as the US and patrolling up and down their west coast like the US does the China Sea.

Take it to a relevant thread. None of this diatribe is relevant to Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

 

[TedDougChris]

It never ran an empire based on slavery and genocidal expansion.

You haven’t heard of Tibet or Taiwan or the Uyghur people ????

 

[Chief]

You haven’t heard of Tibet or Taiwan or the Uyghur people ????

And just about every other neighbouring country over the last few thousand years.

 

[Cap]

And just about every other neighbouring country over the last few thousand years.

Give it 12 months and there will be a few new Chinese cities, formerly of the Russian empire

 

[fishardansin]

Give it 12 months and there will be a few new Chinese cities, formerly of the Russian empire

I'm suspicious that is China's game in this war too.

 

[Visions]

So I'm just an observer trying to learn.

If the Ukrainians have penetrated the first line if defense in a few places, wouldn't the least destructive way to wipe it out altogether be to attack the rest of the line parallel to it, or even manuver and attack from behind it? Wouldn't a line be helplessly indefensible from the flank and rear? Why would they keep pressing from the front in other areas?

The UAF have taken more territory in 4 days than the terrorists did in all of this year from January when they started their "big" offensive and all they had to show for it was Bakhmut. The copium and tears by Russian trolls on social media in regards to this is delicious.

The reason the UAF are still attacking elsewhere is that with every attack or probe on a different front means that Russia needs to have soldiers there to defend the attack. Basically like a dam wall with holes in it, the Ukrainians are making the Russians jump around trying to plug the holes otherwise that wall can collapse. This thins the defences out otherwise the orcs can just send a huge amount of brigades to the areas that are most vulnerable making it really difficult for the UAF to penetrate.

In terms of defence lines, the Ukrainians haven't actually penetrated the main lines yet. Their attacks liberating villages of Neskuchne, etc are 10km in front of the main lines like shown in the map below. The orcs have also reportedly blown up the dam near Klyuchove in front of their lines to slow down the UAF. That would mean that they are resigned to the fact everything N and NW of there is lost, so in the near future expect to hear the Ukrainians liberating a whole heap of villages and ground. The UAF can then head eastwards and come up from under Pavlivka to relieve Vuhledar. When they do hit the main line of defence further south will be the time they unleash their main force to try and penetrate and think about flanking from the sides if they happen to break through.

 

[jatz14]

I think it's the opposite. Prigohzin is a potential challenger not a chum. This current attempt to pull mercenary forces under the army is an attempt to bring him to heel. What ever we think, it's all extra chaos and disunity on the Russian side, which is good for Ukraine. Personally I think it's all symptoms of the ongoing collapse of Russia.

That's what I mean.

If you fear your going to be challenged, keep competing challengers around you, all trying to stop their rivals replacing you.

Better 10 people who hate each other trying to replace you than 1.

Gives you 9 allies of convenience the moment one tries their hand.

It's a play as old as Autocracy.

On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Present Not Past]

The UAF have taken more territory in 4 days than the terrorists did in all of this year from January when they started their "big" offensive and all they had to show for it was Bakhmut. The copium and tears by Russian trolls on social media in regards to this is delicious.

The reason the UAF are still attacking elsewhere is that with every attack or probe on a different front means that Russia needs to have soldiers there to defend the attack. Basically like a dam wall with holes in it, the Ukrainians are making the Russians jump around trying to plug the holes otherwise that wall can collapse. This thins the defences out otherwise the orcs can just send a huge amount of brigades to the areas that are most vulnerable making it really difficult for the UAF to penetrate.

In terms of defence lines, the Ukrainians haven't actually penetrated the main lines yet. Their attacks liberating villages of Neskuchne, etc are 10km in front of the main lines like shown in the map below. The orcs have also reportedly blown up the dam near Klyuchove in front of their lines to slow down the UAF. That would mean that they are resigned to the fact everything N and NW of there is lost, so in the near future expect to hear the Ukrainians liberating a whole heap of villages and ground. The UAF can then head eastwards and come up from under Pavlivka to relieve Vuhledar. When they do hit the main line of defence further south will be the time they unleash their main force to try and penetrate and think about flanking from the sides if they happen to break through.

Russians love blowing up dams.

 

[Present Not Past]

So I'm just an observer trying to learn.

If the Ukrainians have penetrated the first line if defense in a few places, wouldn't the least destructive way to wipe it out altogether be to attack the rest of the line parallel to it, or even manuver and attack from behind it? Wouldn't a line be helplessly indefensible from the flank and rear? Why would they keep pressing from the front in other areas?

If you have at look at some of the recent videos they are doing exactly what you are describing, but further being the enemy lines.
They don't have to attack in parallel. They are attacking and encircling units in cauldrons.

 

[mighty tiges]

 

[Roos9699]

This woman survived 6 monts under Russia occuptaion

 

[Dirty Bird]

That's 9km from Donetsk :O

Who held that when war broke out?

And by breaking out, I mean the escalation last year. Not 10 years ago.

 

[Power Raid]

So I'm just an observer trying to learn.

If the Ukrainians have penetrated the first line if defense in a few places, wouldn't the least destructive way to wipe it out altogether be to attack the rest of the line parallel to it, or even manuver and attack from behind it? Wouldn't a line be helplessly indefensible from the flank and rear? Why would they keep pressing from the front in other areas?

Not knowing much about military strategy but Russia has had time to setup defensive lines and lay mines to protect their flanks. Carefully de-mining is a slow process and makes them vulnerable to ambush attacks.

one would expect circa 60% losses of heavy equipment in paving the way with tracks, filling in anti tank ditches and clearing mines

where I'd expect more is neutralising RF superiority in the air on the front lines. Taking out the attack helicopters and fighter jets would greatly assist those on the ground.

Given the west has provided ukraine (or pledged) fighter jets, I expect this to form part of the attack soon.