Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

 

[Theseventhhamster]

Jesus, check out the comments too! Cookers as far as you can bare to scroll.

 

[Chief]

Just incredible how pro-Russia they are. Crazy.

 

[Crankyhawk]

So your leader Adolf Putin says. While complaining about western weapons he is at the same time relying on North Korea, Iran for cruise missiles, ammunition and is sending in troops from North Korea plus forcibly conscription nationals from other vulnerable states due to Putin's inherent racism..


I'm all for weapons & troops to Ukraine to defend it and to maintain peace / order in Europe

Ukraine did sign an agreement with Russia to defend it. Not be invaded by a bunch of rampaging fascists deludedly trying to recreate the Russian Empire.

I’d say on the scale of putins crimes using North Korean soldiers/mercenaries is small beer. (Tricking non military nationals of other countries and conscripting is worse)

 

[Crankyhawk]

Yeah, you are a flatout bullshit artist


View attachment 2139957


How many other lies are you going to be caught out posting over at the internet research agency comrade?

I thought he was taking issue with a different poster (another hawk supporter)

 

[MrKK]

Ain't gonna happen. If the US was prepared to provide the military support including troops to drive Russia out of Ukraine they would've done so already.

 

[Zidane98]

 

[Zidane98]

Incredible that Putin has squandered over half of Russia's national wealth fund on his failed empire building exercise.


In most states that would see you thrown out on your arse except in the case of an outright dictatorship.

 

[Zidane98]

Exhibit a as to why a peace agreement with Russia never works.

 

[Zidane98]

Russia now heavily reliant on shells & ammunition from North Korea. They're lucky Kim Jong has nukes and nobody will generally touch them as a result.

I do expect sabotage of transport from the far east to ramp up though. Expect trainloads of NK ammo to spontaneously combust in transit from Siberia to Ukraine.

 

[wannabejack]

Ain't gonna happen. If the US was prepared to provide the military support including troops to drive Russia out of Ukraine they would've done so already.

NATO and the U.S. refused to provide Ukraine with many of the weapons it's providing now out of fear that this could lead to an escalation.
How far the US or NATO go will depend on how close the NATO countries (especially Poland and Baltic states) want another russian controlled state on their border. It only took 20 years for russia to break the “Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances” and invade Ukraine.

People talk about how desperate Putin might get, well the Ukrainian people may get just as desperate.
Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons after assurances from russia, US and England, with weaker assurances from China and France. Does that then entitle Ukraine to become nuclear again because they won’t be able to rely on assurances from russia or the US or anyone else again.

 

[Zidane98]

NATO and the U.S. refused to provide Ukraine with many of the weapons it's providing now out of fear that this could lead to an escalation.
How far the US or NATO go will depend on how close the NATO countries (especially Poland and Baltic states) want another russian controlled state on their border. It only took 20 years for russia to break the “Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances” and invade Ukraine.

People talk about how desperate Putin might get, well the Ukrainian people may get just as desperate.
Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons after assurances from russia, US and England, with weaker assurances from China and France. Does that then entitle Ukraine to become nuclear again because they won’t be able to rely on assurances from russia or the US or anyone else again.

Legally & realistically Ukraine can consider the 1994 Budapest agreements null & void now considering Russia's actions since 2014.

Ukraine probably have a legal right to recover any equipment they transferred to Russia under this agreement.

Enforcement of this in reality is probably next to impossible though.

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

 

[Mobbs]

Twitter is so insane!

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

 

[Zidane98]

They double our aid package despite their economy being 1/4 the size of ours.

And a major component of our aid was donation of M1 tanks that were on their way to retirement.

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

 

[Andre]

They double our aid package despite their economy being 1/4 the size of ours.

And a major component of our aid was donation of M1 tanks that were on their way to retirement.

The 'It's Europe not our backyard' argument from some is so stupid and frustrating (not looking at any senile US presidential candidates for example ). Do any of them not notice the 'bro love in' between Russia, Iran, China and North Korea? Removing (effectively) one of them from the board, weakens the group as a whole. Russia is the one that's vulnerable at the moment. The best way to avoid Australia being involved in a war with China over Taiwan, or having to help South Korea with the Korean war 2.0 is ensure Russia is defeated.

China's economy is already winding down, with there more apartments then the country needs now, with their population facing continued issues with it shrinking and aging. Their fall back stimulus of building infrastructure less and less effective, for a shrinking population (and the ones with the most cost-benefit largely done). If they didn't have access to cheap Russian oil (if Russia gets reasonable leaders it can go back to charging full price) they'd be in even more trouble.

North Korea is obviously getting financial, missile and nuclear tech from Russia. Without Russia's support and China not able to do so much if it gets economically weaker, they'd be having less resources to put into their military and could be forced to step back.

Iran obviously finances the destabilisation of the Middle East. Weaken them, by removing Russia's help makes them less able to do so. Along with being more vulnerable to protest from the many within who despise the current regime.

It's the 1960's/1970's domino theory in reverse, with knocking down Russia making knocking down the others much easier. This is the chance for democracies to get on the front foot and make the likelyhood of the 21st century ending with democracy, not autocracy in ascendence. Smart politicians, wanting to sell themselves as states(wo)men leaving their mark on history, should be selling helping Ukraine, both as in their countries interest in the short term, but also the long. I'm struggling to think of any who've really tried to sell the long term picture much.

 

[Andre]

Did Putin actually mention us by name, or is this a made up tweet? I'm hoping the former. If we are getting under his skin, if Marles and Albanese were smart (narrator : They aren't), they'd be happy to get in some personal insults back to burnish their reputations as 'tough guys'.

 

[Zidane98]

Did Putin actually mention us by name, or is this a made up tweet? I'm hoping the former. If we are getting under his skin, if Marles and Albanese were smart (narrator : They aren't), they'd be happy to get in some personal insults back to burnish their reputations as 'tough guys'.

I guess we find out when Medvedev posts a nuke threat towards Canberra after downing a few bottles of vodka.

 

[RonSon]

Did Putin actually mention us by name, or is this a made up tweet? I'm hoping the former. If we are getting under his skin, if Marles and Albanese were smart (narrator : They aren't), they'd be happy to get in some personal insults back to burnish their reputations as 'tough guys'.

Now I'm imagining an Albo shirtfront comment.