Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[Aussie in exile]

All these people must feel sick having to kowtow to the moron ruining their country.

I wonder if Little legs tels that to the families to the 3/4 of a million Russian military who have been killed so far in his illegal invasion of Ukraine

 

[Bloods86]

I have always been liberated from Russian propaganda.

The propaganda emanating from the Kremlin happens to sometimes hold elements of truth in regard to the reasons for the war.

This is fundamentally because of the nature of the political and economic power imbalance: Russia is not an imperialist nation, but is being attacked by an alliance of imperialism through a proxy agent.

That Russia isn't imperialist is its own form of propaganda.

And you can save us the spiel where you tailor a definition to include anyone except Russia, but where Russia has effectively done the same things.

 

[IlovethePies]

That Russia isn't imperialist is its own form of propaganda.

...and this is why you cannot liberate yourself from the "western view". You reject, and others like you, a scientific and historical analysis of global capitalism. You reject such an analysis of global economy and the role of finance capital in world economy. Therefore, you have no understanding of what imperialism is, and where it is leading the entire world.

 

[Aussie in exile]

I have always been liberated from Russian propaganda.

The propaganda emanating from the Kremlin happens to sometimes hold elements of truth in regard to the reasons for the war.

This is fundamentally because of the nature of the political and economic power imbalance: Russia is not an imperialist nation, but is being attacked by an alliance of imperialism through a proxy agent.

You keep forgetting that Russia invaded Ukraine illegally, and because of Little Legs action NATO has expanded so that plan went well

 

[Bloods86]

...and this is why you cannot liberate yourself from the "western view". You reject, and others like you, a scientific and historical analysis of global capitalism.

No, we just reject your obscure definition, and call imperialist nations imperialist.

 

[IlovethePies]

UK Defence Minister John Healey, on a recent vist to Kyev, announced that Britain will "look into" sending British military trainers to Ukraine to train Ukrainian forces.

He declared that Britain and its allies "need to work with Ukraine to help them motivate and mobilise more recruits" and continued:

“With Putin resorting to sending as many as 2,000 Russian soldiers to their deaths on the battlefield each day, it is critical that Ukraine is supported with a supply of properly trained and equipped soldiers.” This left out the ending:" to die in equal and even greater numbers than the Russians."

The UK has already trained 51,000 Ukrainian soldiers on British soil under Operation Interflex. Healey has acknowledged that British Army medics are in Ukraine, apparently providing training, and there have been repeated reports of UK special forces covertly operating in the country since the war began.

But this would be the most brazen attempt so far to openly send NATO troops to Ukraine.

The Putin government has made very clear that it considers NATO military assets in Ukraine as legitimate targets.

Sending British soldiers to Ukraine would be deliberately placing them in harm's way. Should they be killed in a Russian strike, this would provide a pretext for further escalation of NATO intervention into the war, and with that the ever increasing threat of a nuclear exchange.

 

[Bloods86]

UK Defence Minister John Healey, on a recent vist to Kyev, announced that Britain will "look into" sending British military trainers to Ukraine to train Ukrainian forces.

He declared that Britain and its allies "need to work with Ukraine to help them motivate and mobilise more recruits" and continued:

“With Putin resorting to sending as many as 2,000 Russian soldiers to their deaths on the battlefield each day, it is critical that Ukraine is supported with a supply of properly trained and equipped soldiers.” This left out the ending:" to die in equal and even greater numbers than the Russians."

The UK has already trained 51,000 Ukrainian soldiers on British soil under Operation Interflex. Healey has acknowledged that British Army medics are in Ukraine, apparently providing training, and there have been repeated reports of UK special forces covertly operating in the country since the war began.

But this would be the most brazen attempt so far to openly send NATO troops to Ukraine.

The Putin government has made very clear that it considers NATO military assets in Ukraine as legitimate targets.

Sending British soldiers to Ukraine would be deliberately placing them in harm's way. Should they be killed in a Russian strike, this would provide a pretext for further escalation of NATO intervention into the war, and with that the ever increasing threat of a nuclear exchange.

Good on them.

Only supporters of authoritarian nations being able to invade, occupy, ethnically cleanse, and dictate terms to democratic neighbours, while falsely claiming victim status, would have an issue with this.

 

[Aussie in exile]

UK Defence Minister John Healey, on a recent vist to Kyev, announced that Britain will "look into" sending British military trainers to Ukraine to train Ukrainian forces.

He declared that Britain and its allies "need to work with Ukraine to help them motivate and mobilise more recruits" and continued:

“With Putin resorting to sending as many as 2,000 Russian soldiers to their deaths on the battlefield each day, it is critical that Ukraine is supported with a supply of properly trained and equipped soldiers.” This left out the ending:" to die in equal and even greater numbers than the Russians."

The UK has already trained 51,000 Ukrainian soldiers on British soil under Operation Interflex. Healey has acknowledged that British Army medics are in Ukraine, apparently providing training, and there have been repeated reports of UK special forces covertly operating in the country since the war began.

But this would be the most brazen attempt so far to openly send NATO troops to Ukraine.

The Putin government has made very clear that it considers NATO military assets in Ukraine as legitimate targets.

Sending British soldiers to Ukraine would be deliberately placing them in harm's way. Should they be killed in a Russian strike, this would provide a pretext for further escalation of NATO intervention into the war, and with that the ever increasing threat of a nuclear exchange.

Hasn't North Korea sent troops to Ukraine to aid Russian troops?

 

[Bloods86]

Hasn't North Korea sent troops to Ukraine to aid Russian troops?

Yeah, but Russia isn't imperialist for reasons, so that doesn't count as escalation, for reasons.

 

[IlovethePies]

Good on them.

Only supporters of authoritarian nations being able to invade, occupy, ethnically cleanse, and dictate terms to democratic neighbours, while falsely claiming victim status, would have an issue with this.

You haven't understood a word I said, sadly.

 

[wannabejack]

they used a civilian object to conceal the device, so feigning non combatant status would meet the definition.

You’re certainly drawing a long bow.
Generally, members of the armed forces are considered combatants, meaning they are authorized to participate in hostilities. This includes all members of the armed forces, except for medical and religious personnel

Non-combatant status is a legal term in international humanitarian law that refers to people who are not directly involved in hostilities during a war. The term includes:
• Civilians: People who are not part of the armed forces and are not taking part in hostilities
• Members of the armed forces with protected status: People like military chaplains and medics who are protected because of their specific duties
• Combatants who are no longer able to fight: People who have been wounded, captured, or become sick
• Neutral persons: People like peacekeepers who are not fighting for either side in a war
The Geneva Conventions are the basis of international law of armed conflict and define non-combatant status. The law of armed conflict prohibits intentional attacks on non-combatants and requires that they be protected from injury that is not incidental to military operations.

 

[Bloods86]

You haven't understood a word I said, sadly.

Not accepting Russian state propaganda doesn't mean I don't understand it.

 

[CD Xbow]

You haven't understood a word I said, sadly.

How can anyone understand the nonsense you sprout. Russia is an imperial power and has been for hundreds of years and yet you deny it. It is a textbook definition of an imperial power.

 

[IlovethePies]

How can anyone understand the nonsense you sprout. Russia is an imperial power and has been for hundreds of years and yet you deny it. It is a textbook definition of an imperial power.

How can you claim it is a "text book" definition when you have no text book, nor any scientific compass whatsoever, for judging any political and economic phenomena?

 

[Smeg Head]

How can anyone understand the nonsense you sprout. Russia is an imperial power and has been for hundreds of years and yet you deny it. It is a textbook definition of an imperial power.

Arguing with fascists is like that.

 

[RonSon]

The propaganda emanating from the Kremlin happens to sometimes hold elements of truth in regard to the reasons for the war.

Which parts?

 

[Nothing]

Which parts?

The bits that justify their world view.

 

[IlovethePies]

Which parts?

The parts that claim that NATO and the US are involved in a war against Russia, which has been prepared historically by the expansion of NATO to its borders and was provoked by the imperialist powers (mainly the US, Germany and Britain) in their arming, training and backing for military provocations on the Russian border by the Ukrainian army.

Putin has also stated that the aim of NATO is to dismember Russia and transform it into a series of weak mini-states, which is also true.

 

[IlovethePies]

Arguing with fascists is like that.

Which textbook are you using, gutter crawler?
Maybe you're consulting a chemistry book about how to create a superior slime to lubricate your gutter even more effectively. Then, you''ll be able to dredge up even more muck and even more efficiently.

 

[Jamolad]

they used a civilian object to conceal the device, so feigning non combatant status would meet the definition.

 

[wannabejack]

This would have been another good one

 

[Aussie in exile]

The parts that claim that NATO and the US are involved in a war against Russia, which has been prepared historically by the expansion of NATO to its borders and was provoked by the imperialist powers (mainly the US, Germany and Britain) in their arming, training and backing for military provocations on the Russian border by the Ukrainian army.

Putin has also stated that the aim of NATO is to dismember Russia and transform it into a series of weak mini-states, which is also true.

NATO expanded because of Russia's illegal of Ukraine, so that plan went well for Little Legs.

 

[RonSon]

The parts that claim that NATO and the US are involved in a war against Russia, which has been prepared historically by the expansion of NATO to its borders and was provoked by the imperialist powers (mainly the US, Germany and Britain) in their arming, training and backing for military provocations on the Russian border by the Ukrainian army.

Putin has also stated that the aim of NATO is to dismember Russia and transform it into a series of weak mini-states, which is also true.

If that is the case it seems like invading Ukraine is playing right into NATO's hands.

 

[Aussie in exile]

The parts that claim that NATO and the US are involved in a war against Russia, which has been prepared historically by the expansion of NATO to its borders and was provoked by the imperialist powers (mainly the US, Germany and Britain) in their arming, training and backing for military provocations on the Russian border by the Ukrainian army.

Putin has also stated that the aim of NATO is to dismember Russia and transform it into a series of weak mini-states, which is also true.

So Putin speaks the truth does he?
Like the time he said Russia had no plans to invade Ukraine

 

[IlovethePies]

If that is the case it seems like invading Ukraine is playing right into NATO's hands.

It was.