Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[Visions]

Another piece that explains pretty well the Russian economy and the problems it faces.

 

[Visions]

This one went under the radar. It happened in Moscow days before the general, and seems like another Ukrainian special forces hit since he didn't fall out of a window.

Russia's top missile expert gunned down in Moscow park

Mikhail Shatsky, who is said to have overseen the modernisation of Kh-59 and Kh-69 missiles used by Russia against Ukraine, was reportedly shot dead near his home. #EuropeNews

www.euronews.com

 

[IlovethePies]

Assassination of Kirollov by Ukrainian intelligence was a terrorist act taken from the playbook of Mossad. Under international law, killing a military leader outside the battlefield in a terrorist bombing is classified as an act of "perfidy" , prohibited under Geneva Conventions.

But this flagrant war crime was hailed by the British and American media. The Times of London called it a “legitimate act of defense” in a lead editorial, while the Telegraph called it “ingenious” and the Wall Street Journal “audacious.” (this echoes the capitalist media response to the Mossad pager detonation attack, which was likewise an act of state terrorism).

This is just the latest provocation backed by NATO and the Biden Admin aimed at creating "facts on the ground in Ukraine" ahead of Trump's presidency.

The purpose is to provoke Russia into carrying out a retaliatory response (such as assassinating a high ranking military figure in NATO) which would then provide another pretext to escalate the war.

The sole foreign policy concern of the lame duck Biden administration before leaving office is to assist its proxy government in Ukraine in escalating the war via provocations to such an extent that the Trump administration, whatever its election rhetoric about "ceasefire negotiations", has no choice but to continue the war.

 

[Smeg Head]

You support the use of chemical weapons by proxy. Go away.

 

[Zidane98]

While Russia uses chemical weapons against Ukranian soldiers on a large scale there are some that have a cry the general in charge of doing so is eliminated.

Utterly shameful.

 

[Zidane98]

Here's a thought for Putin - take your fascism, **** off out of Ukraine for good. Do this and the health of his generals will be assured aside from the ones he throws out of windows.

 

[Zidane98]

If anyone needs a scooter ride it is this bloke.

 

[Zidane98]

So Putin's just said we withdrew from Syria after we achieved our objectives.

I'm sure the whole international community would go along with a narrative that Russia has achieved its goals in Ukraine after fully withdrawing from Ukraine & ****ing off for good.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Another piece that explains pretty well the Russian economy and the problems it faces.

Russia in paying a high price for Little Legs ego.

 

[Anzacpaul]

If anyone needs a scooter ride it is this bloke.

All these people must feel sick having to kowtow to the moron ruining their country.

 

[IlovethePies]

You support the use of chemical weapons by proxy. Go away.

Go back to the gutter where you belong. You're just a liar, making random claims with no evidence whatsoever.

 

[Bloods86]

Assassination of Kirollov by Ukrainian intelligence was a terrorist act taken from the playbook of Mossad. Under international law, killing a military leader outside the battlefield in a terrorist bombing is classified as an act of "perfidy" , prohibited under Geneva Conventions.

But this flagrant war crime was hailed by the British and American media. The Times of London called it a “legitimate act of defense” in a lead editorial, while the Telegraph called it “ingenious” and the Wall Street Journal “audacious.” (this echoes the capitalist media response to the Mossad pager detonation attack, which was likewise an act of state terrorism).

This is just the latest provocation backed by NATO and the Biden Admin aimed at creating "facts on the ground in Ukraine" ahead of Trump's presidency.

The purpose is to provoke Russia into carrying out a retaliatory response (such as assassinating a high ranking military figure in NATO) which would then provide another pretext to escalate the war.

The sole foreign policy concern of the lame duck Biden administration before leaving office is to assist its proxy government in Ukraine in escalating the war via provocations to such an extent that the Trump administration, whatever its election rhetoric about "ceasefire negotiations", has no choice but to continue the war.

Russia has clearly marked cities, residential areas, civilians, well away from frontlines, as part of the battlefield.

So save us your selective pearl-clutching when a Russian General gets taken out.

 

[IlovethePies]

Russia has clearly marked cities, residential areas, civilians, well away from frontlines, as part of the battlefield.

So save us your selective pearl-clutching when a Russian general gets taken out.

Look mate, it is a war crime whether or not you think its "pearl clutching".

The main point I was making is the political purpose of it, ie another attempt to escalate the war so that when Trump takes over he cannot proceed easily with any negotiated settlement.

The fact that the Ukrainian Secret Service is taking a leaf out of Mossad's book and that the American government applauds this, is only secondary to the main point.

 

[Bloods86]

Look mate, it is a war crime whether or not you think its "pearl clutching".

The main point I was making is the political purpose of it, ie another attempt to escalate the war so that when Trump takes over he cannot proceed easily with any negotiated settlement.

The fact that the Ukrainian Secret Service is taking a leaf out of Mossad's book and that the American government applauds this, is only secondary to the main point.

Yes yes, we know your main point. You repeat it ad nauseam.

US/NATO bad. Russia bad if forced into conceding that point, but mostly charitable to Russian perspectives, while never charitable to Ukraine, US, NATO because it must feed into your narrative.

 

[wannabejack]

Assassination of Kirollov by Ukrainian intelligence was a terrorist act taken from the playbook of Mossad. Under international law, killing a military leader outside the battlefield in a terrorist bombing is classified as an act of "perfidy" , prohibited under Geneva Conventions.

....

Can you provide a link?

The following acts are examples of perfidy:

(a) The feigning of an intent to negotiate under a flag of truce or of a surrender;
(b) The feigning of an incapacitation by wounds or sickness;
(c) The feigning of civilian, non-combatant status; and
(d) The feigning of protected status by the use of signs, emblems or uniforms of the United Nations or of neutral or other States not Parties to the conflict.

 

[IlovethePies]

Yes yes, we know your main point. You repeat it ad nauseam.

US/NATO bad. Russia bad if forced into conceding that point, but mostly charitable to Russian perspectives, while never charitable to Ukraine, US, NATO because it must feed into your narrative.

I am never "charitable" to anyone.

I simply point out that both the Putin regime and the US/NATO backed regimes are criminal, and supporting either one is equivalent to supporting one Mafia/terrorist gang over the other.

What you think is "charity" is pointing out the criminal character of the US/NATO/Zelensky Mafia, because that offends the sensibilities of you and your kindred spirits here.

You guys do well in pointing out the criminality of Putin, with which I have no disagreement. What I disagree with is your failure to also point out the criminality and the real aims of the US/NATO/Zelensky regime nexus.

 

[IlovethePies]

Can you provide a link?

The following acts are examples of perfidy:

(a) The feigning of an intent to negotiate under a flag of truce or of a surrender;
(b) The feigning of an incapacitation by wounds or sickness;
(c) The feigning of civilian, non-combatant status; and
(d) The feigning of protected status by the use of signs, emblems or uniforms of the United Nations or of neutral or other States not Parties to the conflict.

they used a civilian object to conceal the device, so feigning non combatant status would meet the definition.

 

[Bloods86]

I am never "charitable" to anyone.

I simply point out that both the Putin regime and the US/NATO backed regimes are criminal, and supporting either one is equivalent to supporting one Mafia/terrorist gang over the other.

What you think is "charity" is pointing out the criminal character of the US/NATO/Zelensky Mafia, because that offends the sensibilities of you and your kindred spirits here.

You guys do well in pointing out the criminality of Putin, with which I have no disagreement. What I disagree with is your failure to also point out the criminality and the real aims of the US/NATO/Zelensky regime nexus.

You are charitable to Russian propaganda that the US/NATO provoked the war into existence and have been trying to escalate it continually.

You are absolutely not charitable to any western view that Russia actually just wants more territory, resources and to exert control over a nation it believes belongs to their empire. And thus it should be opposed or they will keep doing it.

You may criticise the capitalism and corruption in both countries (though they are not equivalent), but in terms of the war, the topic of this thread, you are quite one sided in who you are charitable to.

 

[IlovethePies]

You are charitable to Russian propaganda that the US/NATO provoked the war into existence and have been trying to escalate it continually.

You are absolutely not charitable to any western view that Russia actually just wants more territory, resources and to exert control over a nation it believes belongs to their empire. And thus it should be opposed or they will keep doing it.

You may criticise the capitalism and corruption in both countries (though they are not equivalent), but in terms of the war, the topic of this thread, you are quite one sided in who you are charitable to.

You are right, I am absolutely not charitable to US imperialist propaganda (ie the "western view") - which includes the reality inversion that Russia is the true aggressor, simply because it fired the first shot by invading Ukraine.

Like every reality inversion, this propaganda narrative simply ignores the entire history leading up to t this war, and likewise the connections of this war with that in the Middle East.

 

[Bloods86]

You are right, I am absolutely not charitable to US imperialist propaganda (ie the "western view") - which includes the reality inversion that Russia is the true aggressor, simply because it fired the first shot by invading Ukraine.

Like every reality inversion, this propaganda narrative simply ignores the entire history leading up to t this war, and likewise the connections of this war with that in the Middle East.

Cool. At least you now admit you are partisan.

You dismiss the US/NATO/Ukrainian view as propaganda, while believing Russia was provoked, in spite of their lack of concern over NATO expansion in the past, and their history of bullying, invading and occupying neighbours.

 

[IlovethePies]

Cool. At least you now admit you are partisan.

You dismiss the US/NATO/Ukrainian view as propaganda, while believing Russia was provoked, in spite of their lack of concern over NATO expansion in the past, and their history of bullying, invading and occupying neighbours.

I am partisan for the working class. I have said that many times.

 

[Bloods86]

I am partisan for the working class. I have said that many times.

So am I, so that doesn't explain why you are more charitable to Russia over this war.

 

[IlovethePies]

So am I, so that doesn't explain why you are more charitable to Russia over this war.

You can't be a partisan for the working class unless you liberate yourself from the propaganda narratives of all governments. You have to be prepared to expose the lies, the concealed geopolitical aims, of all governments.

 

[Bloods86]

You can't be a partisan for the working class unless you liberate yourself from the propaganda narratives of all governments. You have to be prepared to expose the lies, the concealed geopolitical aims, of all governments.

So why don't you liberate yourself from Russian state propaganda in regards to the war?

 

[IlovethePies]

So why don't you liberate yourself from Russian state propaganda in regards to the war?

I have always been liberated from Russian propaganda.

The propaganda emanating from the Kremlin happens to sometimes hold elements of truth in regard to the reasons for the war.

This is fundamentally because of the nature of the political and economic power imbalance: Russia is not an imperialist nation, but is being attacked by an alliance of imperialism through a proxy agent.