Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

Russia is an ally of Israel. There is a large Jewish population in Russia.

You are talking nonsense. This is the Ukraine war, please keep the discussion to the Ukraine war.

then why is russia arming iran with weapons ? why did Sergei Shoigu visit iran, and Ali Akbar Ahmadian, Secretary of Iran’s Supreme National Security Council, meet with Russian President Vladimir Putin ?

iran + russia alliance

 

[Visions]

then why is russia arming iran with weapons ? why did Sergei Shoigu visit iran, and Ali Akbar Ahmadian, Secretary of Iran’s Supreme National Security Council, meet with Russian President Vladimir Putin ?

iran + russia alliance

With what weapons is Russia arming Iran with? They don’t have enough on their own to spare.

You have it the wrong way around. The purpose of the visits was to beg Iran to provide Russia with ballistic missiles and drones/technology for them to use on Ukraine.

If Iran was preparing to go to war with Israel, why would it be sending weapons away instead of stockpiling them for themselves?

 

[Zidane98]

then why is russia arming iran with weapons ? why did Sergei Shoigu visit iran, and Ali Akbar Ahmadian, Secretary of Iran’s Supreme National Security Council, meet with Russian President Vladimir Putin ?

iran + russia alliance

This doesn't preclude anything.

Qatar for example was Hamas' main source of funding.

Also has a defence agreement with the USA - signed after the Oct 7 terror attacks.

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

With what weapons is Russia arming Iran with? They don’t have enough on their own to spare.

You have it the wrong way around. The purpose of the visits was to beg Iran to provide Russia with ballistic missiles and drones/technology for them to use on Ukraine.

If Iran was preparing to go to war with Israel, why would it be sending weapons away instead of stockpiling them for themselves?

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

He's said numerous times he has no other option. You and I know Putin is a coward and it's all talk.

Do you reckon the US would declare war on Russia because Putin has turned Zaporizhia NPP into a military base and is sabotaging it?

It’s all about the “timing”

It will happen - based on the info I’ve got

 

[Zidane98]

It’s all about the “timing”

It will happen - based on the info I’ve got

Haha you surely cant be quoting Medvedev.

You lose, based on just that. He's made hundreds of nuclear threats depending on his much vodka he has consumed.

 

[modul8]

It’s all about the “timing”

It will happen - based on the info I’ve got

The info from the voices in your head?

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

Haha you surely cant be quoting Medvedev.

You lose, based on just that. He's made hundreds of nuclear threats depending on his much vodka he has consumed.

Lol you really think he’s bluffing ?

Based on what ?

 

[Mobbs]

I alone have unearthed vital intel that could save or damn the planet. How to use this god-given gift for the benefit, nay salvation, of all mankind?

I know! I'll cryptically hint about it on Bigfooty!

 

[Zidane98]

Lol you really think he’s bluffing ?

Based on what ?

Yes he is bluffing. Surely you can't be so stupid.



+ Hundreds of nuke threats

You lose the argument the second you quote the drunk vodka loving baboon, Medvedev.

Vatnik quality is in serous decline these days.

 

[Zidane98]

There are that many empty threats by Medvedev that there is a dedicated website to list them

A Timeline of Russia’s Nuclear Threats Against the West

While Russia frequently accuses the West of escalation, we look at all the times Russia has made nuclear threats against the West.

united24media.com

One has to be an absolutely deluded pro russian vatnik to even think that quoting Medvedev is proof that Russia's nuclear threats amount to anything.


How utterly embarrassing.

 

[wannabejack]

"Russia continues to rely on nuclear saber-rattling is because it is getting away with it. These risky behaviors are essentially cost-free to Moscow."

 

[Zidane98]

One can only Imagine what the vatniks in this thread would do if the US threatened Russia with nukes for invading a peaceful neighbouring state.

 

[Visions]

Mmmm. Would think that the cargo planes were there to pick up the Shahed drones and ballistic missiles.

If anything they may have brought across air defence units or the like as an exchange, but highly doubt any sophisticated type offensive weaponry as Russia can't afford to give it away.

 

[barreness]

Yebat barreness that's a lot to read first thing in the morning! I need to become a coffee drinker. I know West Oz is like another part of the world but as I say when talking about time zone issues with Russian friends : "stupid round planet". Can't be arsed quoting so I'll do it this way:

Lolz, fair mate. I do post late here

Naming Conventions: I agree, it's a bit of "whatever" - I'm not stating anything bold, just negating those who upscale names into things they aren't, in order to tie a claim to it.

Fair

Yatsenyuk - Nothing to disagree with there. He came to power when Yanukovich left office and the US gave an opinion that it seemed workable. Pretty sure Yatsenyuk lost the support of his party not long after and announced resignation, then the election was held and the new bloke went in transparently.

Yeh look it's a bit confusing. It's my understanding that the president selects the prime-minister with the Rada's consent(and from the Rada), no President so it was all a bit up in the air. Still, the US's pick was selected

Svoboda: Yes Svoboda were attached to a coalition of sorts (3 parties, I think?) including Yatsenyuk's - and I at no point will claim Svoboda are anything other than the resident ratbag party like One Nation or Reform UK, tho even more extreme. Thankfully they were only a hanger-on and only for those months between Yanukovich and Poroshenko. Pretty sure they've still been contesting elections and never get more than 2% support and more recently less than 1%. I get myself confused a bit sometimes thinking Yetsenuk was the president, not the prime minister - so I'm not 100% sure on who's who year to year.

Yeh they were a small party, influencial and supplied fighters for the eastern war. Post the revolution all the major parties that received votes were new parties, it's difficult to tell who delineated into which party but political power rarely just relinquishes. The ultra's still have some power, though I'll say again Zelensky isn't one

Ukraine definitely leaned more to nationalism after the revolution - meaning self-determination of that nation's own future. It's pure dichotomy, nationalism v external subservience. Somehow Russia equates nationalism with nazism, or that word again "fascism". It seems to be a language disconnect.

I mean yeh, but I'd say it's really a choice of two empires; The US or the Russians

CIA personnel in Ukraine : Sorry all, thought everyone was talking about the Russian claim there were NATO bases in Ukraine near the Russian border. Yes CIA did train Ukrainian intelligence officers on-site. In fact I think that's how the MH17 reality was exposed - Ukrainian intel used this specific education & network to reveal the Russian complicity. Note though that a) Ukraine requested this involvement, b) there's no "bragging" but there is thankfulness for the assistance, and c) this was an enabler, with minimal US personnel to help create a Ukrainian system. This is a fantastic venture focussed on giving Ukraine the power to grow its intelligence gathering prowess against the threat of an imperialist neighbour who have been invading everyone around it for decades.

Yeh I mean sure, but there was a bunch of CIA people in Ukraine and they set up bases(and trained Ukrainian intel peeps). That's CIA in your country and a direct threat to Russia

Pro-Russian v Neutral : No such thing as neutral to Russia. The Russian form of neutral, is Russian. They are on a purely imperialist bent, and if you don't oppose Russia, you become a Russian conduit to attack those who do (Belarus, Chechnya). And the US have indeed supported Ukraine (not nearly enough imo), but this hasn't caused any loss of life. Russia invading is the cause.

Yeh, pretty much. Can do a form of Finlandization

My analogy is this: If a bunch of my mates comes to a bunch of your mates and tries to murder you all, and you all fight back, and one of you dies in the attempt - are you at fault for their death? If a neighbour throws your mate a crowbar to fight with, but that mate dies in the fight, is your neighbour to blame for them dying?

Geopolitics doesn't work like standard social interactions

Imperialist v fascist. I personally rarely use the word fascist as I have never been fully clear what it means. I use the word imperialist. I also will call Russia terrorist due to deliberate and targetted attacks on purely civilian populations, and genocidal, due to their history of ethnic deportations and ethnoforming, including in Ukraine multiple times.
Are Russia the only country guilty of imperialism? Hell no. It's basically another word for colonialism. Does it make it right. Also hell, also no.

Yeh ok, I know I'm not going to win you over. Yeh the Russian empire/USSR/federation has done a bunch of terrible things, it's hard to call any of them genocidal

I see you still seem to think that negotiating with Russia is somehow going to result in less destruction to Ukraine than fighting on - even though negotiating with Russia never goes this way. Russia has ultimately either destroyed or subjected every group who tried to negotiate with them. I cannot understand how some could believe Ukraine will be different. Russia haven't even claimed to have changed its nature. It's like an abuser saying "oh I'm different now honey, I've changed, I won't hit you anymore" except it's lacking all of those words and instead is a demand to stop resisting.

Until there is any sign of change, Russia will continue to act the way it has acted every time prior. If Ukraine negotiates on Russia's terms, Ukraine is dead. Everybody, everywhere, knows this. Especially Russia. Russia counts on it.

Georgia did a similar thing; pro NATO leader, started shelling autonomous provinces, got slapped by Russia. Georgia still exists, there was no genocide, it was bad and people were displaced but better than this

 

[barreness]

Yes I know, everyone I hate is Hitler, but they're not ya know

 

[barreness]

One can only Imagine what the vatniks in this thread would do if the US threatened Russia with nukes for invading a peaceful neighbouring state.

Like they did in Japan? the US retains a first strike policy and has recently withdrawn from a medium range nuke agreement. That threat is constant from the US. See Patton in Korea

Russia has 6000 nukes and the ability to end the world, you should take this seriously ffs.

The world is closer than it ever has been to nuclear war and you go, meh they're mostly bluffing and/or they don't work, insanity

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

Russia is an ally of Israel. There is a large Jewish population in Russia.

You are talking nonsense. This is the Ukraine war, please keep the discussion to the Ukraine war.

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

 

[Jamolad]

Yes I know, everyone I hate is Hitler, but they're not ya know

That's a poor response, you're better than that.

You know the point I was making is your double-standards when it comes to justifying deaths when the Russians were fighting for their sovereignty and survival in WWII, but you see the deaths in this current conflict as a pointless waste of life when Ukraine are fighting for their sovereignty and their country's survival against an aggressor.

You argue your points very well, usually managing to maintain the appearance of neutrality, but every now and then you display your bias and double-standards, and when called out on it your go-to is always a pathetic response similar to the above and then move on like nothing happened.

 

[wannabejack]

Civilians rat out Kadyrovites to Ukrainian defence forces in Kursk Oblast

More and more Russians, both civilians and military, are cooperating with the Ukrainian defence forces. Residents of Kursk Oblast are reporting Kadyrovites en masse, as this is the only way to protect themselves from them [Kadyrovites is the collective term for Chechen troops loyal to the...

www.pravda.com.ua

 

[jatz14]

Nato would smoke Russia. Why would Russia choose a costly occupation of the whole of Ukraine? It makes no sense.

I think Russia now knows Nato would smoke it. I don't think they knew that before Ukraine. I suspect they thought of Nato as the decadent West, and that none of them had any backbone.

They expected the threat to energy supplies alone to keep the Wests response getting much more than tut tut, naughty Putin. Then Ukraine, starved of equipment supplies and help capitulates quickly.

Then they sit on Poland's borders and begin the job of undermining their government, promoting pro Russian interests, and working in the West to undermine Poland's position in NATO, and public support for interfering in a dispute between Russia and it's client state, Poland.

This war continues now because Putin is stubborn and doesn't know and is not yet seeking, a way out.

They have known for a long time that their initial victory objective is unobtainable, so they have just changed victory objective to something more achievable.



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[jatz14]

Well I am not barracking for either Ukraine or Russia but I do know that this war was started long before Russia invaded Ukraine.The Ukrainians have been bombing ethnic Russians in Donbas for a decade now,long before Russia took action do people here remember the Americans and Nato saying Russia would be on its knees after 16.000 + sanctions well Russian now has the 4th largest economy in the world and it grows all the time Nato and Washington are stealing their money because they cannot stop them.

When Puttin came to power he actually asked Nato if Russia could join it this was when the Russian federation was on its knees when the Soviet bloc fell apart after Yeltsin but the Americans and Nato did not want this they wanted Russian to fall apart so they could gain control of their natural reserves of all those resources.

The problem is the west has met more than its match in Puttin he is running rings around them and looking at the fools running the west is it any wonder Macron,Starmer,Biden and Scholz what an inspiring line up of 1st grade fools who Puttin outsmarts every single day.

Most people here do not remember the Cuban missile crisis but that started when the Russians decided that if it was alright for Europe and them to be destroyed in a nuclear war then it was okay for America to be destroyed also.

I find it interesting that every single Russian barracker on here says they aren't barracking for Russia.

And the harder they barrack, the more they insist they aren't.

It's curious, why is that?

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[jatz14]

Medvedev has already stated that the UK will be a prime target if they allow Zelenskyy to bomb Russia targets I hope he aims better than he did last time when Killed civilians on a beach in Sebastopol.

Medvedev has said many things and made many threats and promises, generally notable for their spectacular not coming true.

So, it's odd to repeat comments from him as having some particular meaning Mr Not barracking for Russia.

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[jatz14]

Mate you do know that Alexander was the only one to have defeated the Afghans and the British empire and the Americans both ran away with their tail between their legs,you really need to study your history a little and then you would not be such an easy target.

I bet you do not know who Alexander was do you go on you can admit it.

Neither Alexander, nor the British Empire nor the Americans have boots on ground in Ukraine. Russia does. What happened to Russia in Afghanistan has some, very limited, relevance here. The others, none at all.

Try again Mr not barracking for Russia.

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