Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[EagleMan87]

So you need capitalism for socialism to work .... riding on one's coat tails

Sounds like a bunch of parasites

To be fair, that is what Marx envisioned: it was to be the end result of a long process of feudalism>capitalism>socialism, and was supposed to begin in one of the industrialized nations, like the UK or France, as opposed to backwards AF Russia.

That doesn't mean it would have worked, of course.

 

[Millky95]

... and now for something a little different

 

[Mobbs]

No, definitely, the capitalists will not give up their very real privileges and groteseque levels of wealth.
No devil voluntarily cuts its own claws off.

The revolution can only be carried out by the international working class, led by an international revolutionary party.
A party which bases itself not on what is good for any one nation, but what what is good for the international working class.

The establishment, and expansion of influence of this party, requires the political clarification of the highly class conscious and thoughtful sections of the working class.

These layers of workers will then expand their understanding to those who still remain unconvinced.

However, the speed of events, the advanced state of capitalist crisis, will accelerate this process.

The working class is driven to find a way out of capitalism simply because it will not be able to survive otherwise.

The process and dynamics of how this occurred has already been demonstrated in the Russian Revolution.

Now the task is to spread this revolution world wide.

Cool post for a thread about the war in Ukraine.

 

[Jamolad]

Sorry guys.

Mods too for the clean-up..

 

[Zidane98]

What a surprise.

 

[barreness]

How long do you think Ukrainians would be able to go about their little thing if Putin is appeased? How long before Russia re-arms and comes again?

Depends on the treaty really; Georgia style and there's not a great reason for another Russian invasion, otherwise just before they join NATO proper I'd say

 

[Visions]

Cool post for a thread about the war in Ukraine.

The same poster derailed this thread not that long ago, then did the same in one of his US election threads with his socialism stuff (throwing in NATO and Ukraine for good measure), and now they’re back here derailing it for a second time with their non topic crap.

 

[barreness]

To be fair, that is what Marx envisioned: it was to be the end result of a long process of feudalism>capitalism>socialism, and was supposed to begin in one of the industrialized nations, like the UK or France, as opposed to backwards AF Russia.

That doesn't mean it would have worked, of course.

Yeh this.

Marx was a big fan of capitalism, he just thought it's internal contradictions would lead to it's collapse. I think he'll be right in the end but it's turned out to be far more resilient than he predicted

Sorry mods, adjacent discussion

 

[barreness]

I did also lol that what will make socialism successful this time is capitalism.

Lol Marx 101

Next question. How do you determine who does what?

How do you pick who has to work in the sewers, in offshore oil rigs, fight fires and otherwise work in dangerous and/or unpleasant conditions, for the same reward and same returns as the people you reward with the "cushy" jobs? And how do you keep those people content?

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs

What changes will you make to higher education, and how will you determine who gets it?

I don't reckon MBA's will be getting as far as they do these days

 

[barreness]

Why would Putin use a nuke knowing his country would be retaliated against likewise?

Because it probably won't be

Unless Putin has a deathwish he knows that if uses nukes his beloved Russia will become an ashtray .... all for access to the Black Sea?

And then Russia launches it's 6k nukes. If 10% of them work then America launches all of theirs, if 1% of them hit it's still a world changing move

If Ukrainians went to the polls right now to vote on whether to align with Russia or Europe .... Europe wins hands down

Would the ones in Russia(and Europe) and occupied areas get the vote? no doubt the Ukrainian controlled areas would go pro europe, that's the basics of this conflict

The moment the Russian bear stepped inside Ukraine ..... Putin lost.... Russia lost

History will not be kind to Putin .... Russian history won't be kind to Putin

Would think there's still a lot of doubt about this, worse than Gorbachev? Yeltsin? for Russians probably not. We'll see as always

 

[Mobbs]

The RF soldiers trapped in Vovchansk were eventually over-run after holding out for months in a factory.

The fighting is of less and less interest to ordinary people, but this does not mean that its intensity has decreased or the ferocity of the fighting has lowered its degree

K1 has obtained footage and stories from the Aggregate Plant in Volchansk (Kharkiv region of Ukraine), which was controlled by the Russian Armed Forces for four months under conditions of a partial and then complete blockade.

The day before yesterday, Ukrainian special forces attacked the remaining Russian forces at the plant, taking many soldiers prisoner.

For four months, the command kept the soldiers in the factory under false pretense, promising rotation, breakthrough, and support. All logistics were carried out by drones delivering packages with water, food, and ammunition. The commanders kept most of the food and water for themselves, which led to total hunger and thirst.

Captured soldiers said commanders maintained discipline through fear, violence and murder. For example, two soldiers were shot because they were thought to have "taken more water from a bottle than they were allowed."

Several wounded shot themselves because they had not received medical care for a long time. Hunger had reached such a level that the soldiers killed and ate several dogs that were wandering around.

The prisoners also admitted that at some point they had the idea of eating the livers of their fellow soldiers.

There is a suspicion that this is what they did, since the bodies of the dead Russians that we saw had cut off pieces of meat and various organs.
— noted the commander of the special forces unit of the Main Intelligence Directorate of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine (the veracity and plausibility of the story cannot be established).

While at the plant, the Russian Armed Forces managed to dig a well in one of the basements to get groundwater. This allowed them to hold out in the encirclement for so long.

At the time of the capture of the plant, about 80 Russian soldiers remained surrounded. 20 of them were captured, the rest died.
[K! TG]

 

[Mobbs]

After years of meatwaves, finally Vuhledar looks like falling in the near future.

 

[Mobbs]

Reports of a fourth point of incursion into Kursk oblast by Ukrainian forces. This location is near a town called Budki, way over near the west end, not far from Tetkino.

 

[Visions]

The RF soldiers trapped in Vovchansk were eventually over-run after holding out for months in a factory.

The fighting is of less and less interest to ordinary people, but this does not mean that its intensity has decreased or the ferocity of the fighting has lowered its degree

K1 has obtained footage and stories from the Aggregate Plant in Volchansk (Kharkiv region of Ukraine), which was controlled by the Russian Armed Forces for four months under conditions of a partial and then complete blockade.

The day before yesterday, Ukrainian special forces attacked the remaining Russian forces at the plant, taking many soldiers prisoner.

For four months, the command kept the soldiers in the factory under false pretense, promising rotation, breakthrough, and support. All logistics were carried out by drones delivering packages with water, food, and ammunition. The commanders kept most of the food and water for themselves, which led to total hunger and thirst.

Captured soldiers said commanders maintained discipline through fear, violence and murder. For example, two soldiers were shot because they were thought to have "taken more water from a bottle than they were allowed."

Several wounded shot themselves because they had not received medical care for a long time. Hunger had reached such a level that the soldiers killed and ate several dogs that were wandering around.

The prisoners also admitted that at some point they had the idea of eating the livers of their fellow soldiers.

There is a suspicion that this is what they did, since the bodies of the dead Russians that we saw had cut off pieces of meat and various organs.
— noted the commander of the special forces unit of the Main Intelligence Directorate of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine (the veracity and plausibility of the story cannot be established).

While at the plant, the Russian Armed Forces managed to dig a well in one of the basements to get groundwater. This allowed them to hold out in the encirclement for so long.

At the time of the capture of the plant, about 80 Russian soldiers remained surrounded. 20 of them were captured, the rest died.
[K! TG]

View attachment 2124098

2nd best army in the world.

Resorting to eating their own comrades.

 

[Visions]

Depends on the treaty really; Georgia style and there's not a great reason for another Russian invasion, otherwise just before they join NATO proper I'd say

By Georgia style, do you mean a ruling puppet Russian government who has sold out?

Sounds like a plan….

 

[Smeg Head]

Yeh this.

Marx was a big fan of capitalism, he just thought it's internal contradictions would lead to it's collapse. I think he'll be right in the end but it's turned out to be far more resilient than he predicted

Sorry mods, adjacent discussion

Long, long term capitalism in this form is doomed to fail because its predicated on growth but we are on a finite planet in a finite universe.

 

[Zidane98]

After years of meatwaves, finally Vuhledar looks like falling in the near future.

View attachment 2124101

No leader who is sane is ok with 10s of thousands of deaths to advance a few kms over 2 years of fighting.

And even just to maintain the occupation is going to cost just as many lives if not more.

The logical thing here is for Putin to withdraw.

 

[Mobbs]

No leader who is sane is ok with 10s of thousands of deaths to advance a few kms over 2 years of fighting.

And even just to maintain the occupation is going to cost just as many lives if not more.

The logical thing here is for Putin to withdraw.

And by that you mean his dad Putin Sr.

But unfortunately the concept conflicts with the name. (or the unconcept for that matter)

 

[MrKK]

Interesting that the theme for peace is to roll over and suck putins *. * that I’d rather die.

Very easy to say that from the sanctuary of Australia.

 

[barreness]

By Georgia style, do you mean a ruling puppet Russian government who has sold out?

Sounds like a plan….

Yes, you phrase it like it's some grand failure. This is the calculation that every non hegemonic state must make

 

[barreness]

Long, long term capitalism in this form is doomed to fail because its predicated on growth but we are on a finite planet in a finite universe.

Yes I agree, although the way planetary boundaries are being breached we've got a few decades at most and no one is getting off this planet

 

[Crankyhawk]

Very easy to say that from the sanctuary of Australia.

Tells me you have no idea about the reality of being invaded and occupied where all you have is your own death under your control.

 

[Zidane98]

And by that you mean his dad Putin Sr.

But unfortunately the concept conflicts with the name. (or the unconcept for that matter)

One of your best posts yet.

Mobbs delivers again in 2024!

 

[Visions]

Yes, you phrase it like it's some grand failure. This is the calculation that every non hegemonic state must make

You’re right. Russia taking Donbas and having a puppet installed government in Kyiv isn’t a failure….for Russia.

As then they would be able to waltz to the Polish border in the short future without impediment.

 

[Venkman]

It is true, the moment Putin invaded Ukraine he cut a river of blood between the Ukrainian and Russian working class. That is why I condemn his actions so totally...by invading Ukraine he lined up the Russian working class as enemies of the Ukrainian working class.

But likewise, Zelensky plays the same role. He likewise, as well as all the fascistic Ukrainian nationalists in his regime, are demonising the Russian working class and the Russian population as "orcs", "vermin", "animals"" (these are all terms that I have seen here, on BF) to convince Ukrainian workers that they should slaughter their class brothers in a conflict between the Russian financial oligarchy and the US\NATO capitalist oligarchy.

History will be kind to neither Putin nor Zelensky, and nor to any of the political representatives of world imperialism.

History will be damning of Zelensky, Biden and Boris Johnson. The fact that there was a peace deal on the table and they didn't take it is a damning miscalculation. Now Russia has lost too much and can't back down. Has been one of the more of the more senseless conflicts of modern history, but will end up the same 'what was the fking point?' basket as Iraq and Vietnam.