Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[Seeds]

To the extent there is a strategy, as far I can tell Biden's strategy appears to be give just enough to allow Ukraine to survive but not win, resulting in a forever war. My opinion of this is unprintable.

And why would biden want a forever war in Ukraine? He is giving away weapons. Not selling them. This is costing the us money not making them money.

Have you thought that maybe biden is giving away as much as he politically can and would give more if he could?

Not to mention weapons alone don't win wars. Manpower matters too and Russia has way more men.

 

[Aussie in exile]

No I don’t, Putin has invaded Ukraine illegally. When do we get to talk about how to move to some sort of future sane relationship?

The sane relationship should start when Russia withdraws all its troop from Ukraines land, agreed?

 

[Aussie in exile]

There are innocent people being killed on each side.

Yes 100% agree and all too Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine
Now if Russia was to do the right thing and withdraw from Ukrainian land the killing of innocent people would stop, agreed?

 

[Jello_B]

To the extent there is a strategy, as far I can tell Biden's strategy appears to be give just enough to allow Ukraine to survive but not win, resulting in a forever war. My opinion of this is unprintable.

I agree with this, and my original post which is about as popular as a puppy killer is that this cannot continue.

 

[Jello_B]

The sane relationship should start when Russia withdraws all its troop from Ukraines land, agreed?

And if I had a magic wand I would make this happen believe me. But it ain’t.
I agree with Zidane, that there was hope that Russia would **** off due to the economic implications and cost of life to Russians. But he isn’t. We can either keep hoping for that or take a more offensive posture. Feels like Russia is controlling the narrative and the west is responding.

 

[Andre]

No I don’t, Putin has invaded Ukraine illegally. When do we get to talk about how to move to some sort of future sane relationship?

Russia withdraws from Ukraine. Russia gets to rejoin the world's markets. Sanctions lifted. The legitimate calls for compensation put aside to get peace (real peace). No one gets everything they want, but Ukraine is allowed to be it's own country, free from Russian occupation.

 

[Jello_B]

Russia withdraws from Ukraine. Russia gets to rejoin the world's markets. Sanctions lifted. The legitimate calls for compensation put aside to get peace (real peace). No one gets everything they want, but Ukraine is allowed to be it's own country, free from Russian occupation.

Getting there. Does Ukraine get to join NATO? Who gets Crimea?

 

[Baldur]

I agree with this, and my original post which is about as popular as a puppy killer is that this cannot continue.

The situation is unacceptable, but your original post suggests an even more unacceptable solution. The war will come to an end when either Russia or Ukraine has had enough. Hopefully its Russia, in the meantime peace loving people should support Ukraine as much as possible. I fear if Russia wins, more conflict is certain.

 

[wannabejack]

There are innocent people being killed on each side.

How many pictures like this do you see coming from russia

 

[Crankyhawk]

So basically Russia get everything and everyone died for nothing.

Predict that even if the land is ceded you get an insurgency similar to Afghanistan but even harder to detect (as insurgents also look Slavic) until Russia eventually gives up

 

[Jello_B]

How many pictures like this do you see coming from russia
View attachment 2162780

And it’s ****ing heart breaking to see this. Yet, the solution at the moment seems to be let’s half-heartedly equip Ukraine with their defence needs and hope Russia gives in.

 

[Crankyhawk]

There are innocent people being killed on each side.

The weight on innocent Russians pales into insignificance and can be discounted.

 

[Jello_B]

The weight on innocent Russians pales into insignificance and can be discounted.

Not your best post there and I normally agree with you.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

How is saying there are innocent people on both sides saying that both sides are to blame. It’s like the Israel thread where you have to disclaim every time you post in here that what Hamas did is bad.
Sorry I can’t agree with your analogy about the puppy. And I think you are being naive if you think Ukraine have managed to destroy everything they have done without killing a single person that isn’t a puppy killer.

Russia are the big Grade 5 bully currently beating up the Grade 1 Ukrainian kid.

Just because the Grade 1 kid landed a few scratches on his/her attacker while defending him/herself before having his/her jaw broken doesn't really merit the teacher saying "but to be fair, there were injuries on both sides'. That's more than a little disingenuous.

And yes, the morality of the Grade 6 American (and some big European) kids standing around doing sweet FA besides handing the little kid a stick to fight off the bully is highly questionable too. When they know they have the power to threaten the violent little bastard to stop the attack and give back the Grade 1's lunch and mobile phone that the bully stole.

Meanwhile, the "peace-loving" teacher intervenes, calls it a draw and says to the bully you can keep the Grade 1 kid's lunch and phone, if only you promise not to attack him/her again.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

Predict that even if the land is ceded you get an insurgency similar to Afghanistan but even harder to detect (as insurgents also look Slavic) until Russia eventually gives up

And then how long before a Putin-lovin' Trump government starts referring to these insurgents as "terrorists"?

We've all seen this movie before haven't we?

 

[Jello_B]

Russia are the big Grade 5 bully currently beating up the Grade 1 Ukrainian kid.

Just because the Grade 1 kid landed a few scratches on his/her attacker while defending him/herself before having his/her jaw broken doesn't really merit the teacher saying "but to be fair, there were injuries on both sides'. That's more than a little disingenuous.

And yes, the morality of the Grade 6 American (and some big European) kids standing around doing sweet FA besides handing the little kid a stick to fight off the bully is highly questionable too. When they know they have the power to threaten the violent little bastard to stop the attack and give back the Grade 1's lunch and mobile phone that the bully stole.

Meanwhile, the "peace-loving" teacher intervenes, calls it a draw and says to the bully you can keep the Grade 1 kid's lunch and phone, if only you promise not to attack him/her again.

Your analogy works better if all the kids have knives and are killing each other. I’m suggesting the teacher (whoever that’s meant to be) steps in and at least stops the kids knifing one another.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Not your best post there and I normally agree with you.

there are numerically much fewer.
therefore pales into insignificance.
and at any rate, the blame for their deaths and suffering can also be sheeting onto their own ruler, Putin the arrogant twat.
I don't have to feel blame, guilt or empathy for their suffering. Redirect their complaints to their ruler.

 

[Crankyhawk]

And then how long before a Putin-lovin' Trump government starts referring to these insurgents as "terrorists"?

We've all seen this movie before haven't we?

possibly, but I think more like afghanistan there will be elements of the US military willing to support covertly to frustrate and inconvenince the russians. The Afghans were regarded as "freedom fighters". Until they won their freedom then started to repress women due to "religion"
(****ing bullshit reason)

 

[GhostofJimJess]

Your analogy works better if all the kids have knives and are killing each other. I’m suggesting the teacher (whoever that’s meant to be) steps in and at least stops the kids knifing one another.

 

[wannabejack]

Your analogy works better if all the kids have knives and are killing each other. I’m suggesting the teacher (whoever that’s meant to be) steps in and at least stops the kids knifing one another.

The thing with the knives is that it started with the bully bringing a knife and killing kids.
Before that there were no knives and no kid was being killed.
The frightened kids brought there own smaller knives, because that’s all they had to protect themselves.

 

[Jello_B]

Maybe let’s all agree to move on from the kids beating / knifing each other analogy.

 

[wannabejack]

Kremlin Power Games Begin: Exposing Melania Nude Photos on State TV

Russian state-run TV show “congratulates” Trump on election by highlighting once and future First Lady modeling career photos, possibly spelling out the power dynamic of the US-Russia relationship.

www.kyivpost.com

 

[wannabejack]

"Western indecision in Ukraine’s pursuit of security guarantees risks triggering a global chain reaction, with nations turning to nuclear weapons as a deterrent in the absence of reliable security commitments."

 

[Baldur]

"Western indecision in Ukraine’s pursuit of security guarantees risks triggering a global chain reaction, with nations turning to nuclear weapons as a deterrent in the absence of reliable security commitments."

Correct, Ukraine gave up its nukes in return for security commitments that have proven worthless. The nuclear non-proliferation treaty is damaged if Ukraine loses.

 

[Smeg Head]

"Western indecision in Ukraine’s pursuit of security guarantees risks triggering a global chain reaction, with nations turning to nuclear weapons as a deterrent in the absence of reliable security commitments."

If I was Ukraine, I would have been starting up a nuke program as soon as that russian invasion looked likely. They already have a nuclear industry, scientists etc, would be starting from scratch.

Even a handful of small bombs would give russia pause.

Wouldnt be surprised for the next few decades to see an expansion in nuclear armed states.