Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[Visions]

Yes of course Putin would.
And Zelensky would do absolutely the same.
Both are heads of dictatorial regimes.

So the working class urgently needs its own political party, an international party with a program to unite it internationally and seize political power.

Such a party already exists, but it urgently needs to be expanded in size, due to the urgency of the crisis that mankind confronts.

If you are interested in finding out more, PM me.

You obviously dont know how the political system nor voting works in Russia.

No fairytale socialist party is ever going to hold any power there, just like any other non Putin ass licking party.

 

[Fire]

Sure.

But do you know where the red line is located?

Because if you are assuming that there is no red line, and NATO/Ukraine can do whatever they like with impunity, I don;t think that your assumptions can be accepted by any rational person

This is because a rational person would say: How The F*** Would You Know?

And this rational person would add: WTF, you're willing to gamble the future of human civilisation on your totally unverifiable assumption??

Are you also afraid of goblins when it gets dark outside?

There is nothing rational in your fear.

 

[Mobbs]

AEC requirements were increased by the Albanese government (supported by the Liberal opposition) were suddenly trebled in August 2021 (in the middle of the COVID lockdowns) from 500 members to 1500 members.

This was a blatant bipartisan plan to prevent the registration of smaller parties, particulary the SEP, because it advocates an independent political perspective for the working class.

It did not just affect the SEP, but affected many smaller parties.

Labor and the Liberals are united in their agreement to try to suppress any political opposition that threatens to go outside their almost identical pro austerity, pro war agenda.


Just as in the US, (where censorship of smaller parties by means of ridiculous registration requirements is rampant- organised almost entirely by the Democrats) this was political censorship, motivated by the fear of the ruling elite that both their major parties (ALP and Liberals) were losing their electoral support base, and were therefore losing their ability to keep political oppositon constrained within the ossified Labor/Liberal framework.

Thanks for confirming.

On SM-A146P using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[treeebeard]

The photo might be fake, but this isn’t

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-chief-acknowledges-long-claimed-weapons-supply-to-syrian-rebels/

Israel loves to destabilise the region. Helps with their plans of expanding the zionist homeland to whatever the burning bush said it should be.

 

[Fire]

Israel loves to destabilise the region. Helps with their plans of expanding the zionist homeland to whatever the burning bush said it should be.

Yeah that's why they gave back the Sinai peninsula, hey. And why they handed over Gaza completley less than 20 years ago.

It must be nice, seeing the world with such a simple lense. Things don't even need to make sense for them to be real to you.

Not sure why you needed to bring this up in a Ukranian thread tho.

 

[Baldur]

The photo might be fake, but this isn’t

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-chief-acknowledges-long-claimed-weapons-supply-to-syrian-rebels/

Wrong thread

 

[rumply]

Wars Within Wars: Deep State/Counter State, 4th Estate, AI & SPQR (Part One)

We had been so very close to the end of WWIII when suddenly the US and UK decided to ramp things up. Why? There is an internal fight over the family jewels. President Trump and his team, Elon Musk, Kash Patel and others, are now fighting a two front war - one internal and one external. They are...

drpippa.substack.com

 

[rumply]

Wars Within Wars: Deep State/Counter State, 4th Estate, AI & SPQR (Part Two)

(Continued from Part One) What happens when Elon Musk and Peter Thiel start running AI over all the government data that the Trump team want declassified asap? Is this the end of the F-35 and other star projects? Are we in a war between SPQR and the Establishment or between the US versus Russia...

drpippa.substack.com

 

[Zidane98]

Yes of course Putin would.
And Zelensky would do absolutely the same.
Both are heads of dictatorial regimes.

So the working class urgently needs its own political party, an international party with a program to unite it internationally and seize political power.

Such a party already exists, but it urgently needs to be expanded in size, due to the urgency of the crisis that mankind confronts.

If you are interested in finding out more, PM me.

You simply cannot resist a "but what about Zelensky" when discussing the Ukraine war.


Zelensky isn't the problem for the people of Ukraine. Number one enemy of the people of Ukraine is V. Putin who believes that Ukraine is a possession of Russia and is destined to return to the new Russian empire. He will murder, torture, disappear, put through filtatrion camps anyone who isn't on board with that ideology within occupied Ukraine. This is all a rerun of the Hitler playbook.

This was all in the victory speech they had prepared for Russian state media.

If you believe socialism is the answer then let the people defeat Putin, allow Ukraine to return to normal and see if a socialist party can win a majority of government.

 

[Chadwiko]

Russian military suffers devastating losses in Kursk Oblast

Frontline report: Russian military suffers devastating losses in Tolstyi Lug, Kursk Oblast - Euromaidan Press

Six to ten armored vehicles in each wave approached Ukrainian positions, leaving behind fields scattered with burning wreckage.

euromaidanpress.com

 

[IlovethePies]

Russian military suffers devastating losses in Kursk Oblast

Frontline report: Russian military suffers devastating losses in Tolstyi Lug, Kursk Oblast - Euromaidan Press

Six to ten armored vehicles in each wave approached Ukrainian positions, leaving behind fields scattered with burning wreckage.

euromaidanpress.com

^^ Euromaidan media

 

[treeebeard]

Yeah that's why they gave back the Sinai peninsula, hey. And why they handed over Gaza completley less than 20 years ago.

It must be nice, seeing the world with such a simple lense. Things don't even need to make sense for them to be real to you.

Not sure why you needed to bring this up in a Ukranian thread tho.

Gave Gaza back. Hahahahahaha. Still under occupation, before the genocide.
I didn't bring it up, just followed on from a post about Israel.

 

[IlovethePies]

Are you also afraid of goblins when it gets dark outside?

There is nothing rational in your fear.

Really??

Then maybe you should read the article i link below from the British Guardian about how the German and Nordic governments are advising their citizens how to prepare for nuclear war:“Apps and booklets are offering advice on how to build a bunker, stockpile food and live without electricity in case the worst eventuates" (Link below)

During WW1, Germany attempted to establish a Ukrainian puppet state. Then, in World War 2, Hitler escalated this aim further, by incorporating the conquest of Ukraine into a war of annihilation against the Soviet Union.

In line with this history, a photograph published by Scholz taken in Kiev recently shows him and Zelensky standing in front of Ukrainian national flags with a clearly visible fascist insignia of the Azov Batallion in the bottom right corner.(second link) (an insignia which traces its history to the Nazi death squads that roamed Ukraine and Bylorussia).

Even though you might think that there is no rational basis for fearing nuclear war, this is not the attitude of those closest to the conflict.

‘Would you survive 72 hours?’ Germany and the Nordic countries prepare citizens for possible war

Apps and booklets are offering advice on how to build a bunker, stockpile food and live without electricity in case the worst happens

www.theguardian.com

 

[RICHOLEGEND12]

Really??

Then maybe you should read the article i link below from the British Guardian about how the German and Nordic governments are advising their citizens how to prepare for nuclear war:“Apps and booklets are offering advice on how to build a bunker, stockpile food and live without electricity in case the worst eventuates" (Link below)

During WW1, Germany attempted to establish a Ukrainian puppet state. Then, in World War 2, Hitler escalated this aim further, by incorporating the conquest of Ukraine into a war of annihilation against the Soviet Union.

In line with this history, a photograph published by Scholz taken in Kiev recently shows him and Zelensky standing in front of Ukrainian national flags with a clearly visible fascist insignia of the Azov Batallion in the bottom right corner.(second link) (an insignia which traces its history to the Nazi death squads that roamed Ukraine and Bylorussia).

Even though you might think that there is no rational basis for fearing nuclear war, this is not the attitude of those closest to the conflict.

‘Would you survive 72 hours?’ Germany and the Nordic countries prepare citizens for possible war

Apps and booklets are offering advice on how to build a bunker, stockpile food and live without electricity in case the worst happens

www.theguardian.com

So what's your point here? Sholz & Zelenkskyy have secret Nazi sympathies? This is ridicoulsy stupid. They are clearly at a shrine for the dead. And yes, there is a small Azov insignia, but come on. You're doing like some sort of reverse dog whitsle.

Putin is the fascist. Murders his oppostion. Changes laws to keep himself in power. Beleives in some wacko Russian spirit, a great Russian Empire, and twists history to lay claim to Ukraine, and its people, saying they are bound together. Well, it's pretty clear they don't want to bound to Russia.

You won't admit, you'll say something like 'Oh no, I just want peace'. But you're disinformation and bullshit has you on the side of the fascists.

 

[jatz14]

I'd say to supply Ukraine with nukes would be unlikely. Would it not be violating the non proliferation treaty? and also while Ukraine is on the US "side" right now, it will give Ukraine further independent leverage if there is a change in power and a more hostile to the west leader emerges

I saw a suggestion about this, although from a philosopher, not someone involved in the US government.

It was a suggestion, that in response to Russia changing its nuclear doctrine to allow a nuclear response to a non nuclear attack, that the West change its doctrine.

The suggestion was, in the event a non nuclear country was threatened with nukes by a nuclear power, then the non nuclear country be allowed access to nuclear weapons as a deterrent.

I didn't see this idea fleshed out, I don't think it was. But a way to do it, would be just to give a handful of nuclear armed missiles, for the duration of the threat.

So Ukraine doesn't get permanent access, just temporary access, and Russia has to face the reality that if Ukraine has the ability to respond itself, there is no longer any point in ramping up nuclear threats against the West.

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[CD Xbow]

Mr P is suffering some imperial overreach.

Is Russia the loser in the fall of Syria’s Aleppo? | Lowy Institute

Moscow cannot meaningfully aid its ally, and that’s not gone unnoticed.

www.lowyinstitute.org

 

[Fire]

Really??

Then maybe you should read the article i link below from the British Guardian about how the German and Nordic governments are advising their citizens how to prepare for nuclear war:“Apps and booklets are offering advice on how to build a bunker, stockpile food and live without electricity in case the worst eventuates" (Link below)

During WW1, Germany attempted to establish a Ukrainian puppet state. Then, in World War 2, Hitler escalated this aim further, by incorporating the conquest of Ukraine into a war of annihilation against the Soviet Union.

In line with this history, a photograph published by Scholz taken in Kiev recently shows him and Zelensky standing in front of Ukrainian national flags with a clearly visible fascist insignia of the Azov Batallion in the bottom right corner.(second link) (an insignia which traces its history to the Nazi death squads that roamed Ukraine and Bylorussia).

Even though you might think that there is no rational basis for fearing nuclear war, this is not the attitude of those closest to the conflict.

‘Would you survive 72 hours?’ Germany and the Nordic countries prepare citizens for possible war

Apps and booklets are offering advice on how to build a bunker, stockpile food and live without electricity in case the worst happens

www.theguardian.com

You can't even remain focused can you. Just spraying shit all over the place all the time, hoping something sticks.

 

[IlovethePies]

You can't even remain focused can you. Just spraying shit all over the place all the time, hoping something sticks.

It really isn't that hard.
You claimed there is no rational basis to fear nuclear war in the UKraine conflict.
I replied: well that's not what the governments nearby think as they are warning their citizens to get ready for it.
I then added that Scholz of Germany is happy to collaborate with Azov fascists, who draw inspiration from Hitler's SS, to indicate the type of forces with whom the NATO powers are collaborating.

I guess you react like that when proven wrong.

 

[Fire]

It really isn't that hard.
You claimed there is no rational basis to fear nuclear war in the UKraine conflict.
I replied: well that's not what the governments nearby think as they are warning their citizens to get ready for it.
I then added that Scholz of Germany is happy to collaborate with Azov fascists, who draw inspiration from Hitler's SS, to indicate the type of forces with whom the NATO powers are collaborating.

I guess you react like that when proven wrong.

Nothing was proven. Just because a government is providing information to its citizens, it does NOT inherently mean that they are 'warning heir citizens to get ready for it'. One alternative explanation is that Governments will do whatever gives them support, so if they get some points by paranoid people like yourself by appearing to 'be proactive' or 'listening to your concerns', then they will do so. So you need to do more to join the dots here if you want this to be evidence that 'German and Nordic governments think there is a real chance at a nuclear exchange', because this is clearly just you working backwards and grabbing onto whatever straws you can to support your conclusion, however weak they may be.

And the Scholz/Germany stuff is drivel that has nothing to do with the discussion, and is again a clear demonstration of you working backwards. By including it, you are saying "If you think the threat of nuclear war is a poor argument to acquiesce to Russia, how about this one instead?"

You are an incredibly bad faith actor.

 

[Zidane98]

I think a certain poster has hit BINGO for sure on this one.

 

[Andre]

The whole 'Putin has adjusted the nuclear doctrine' panic is a great test for showing up those who are either gullible or Russian shills. Putin is a dictator, the Russian nuclear doctrine is irrelevant for whether they'd actually use a nuke. If Putin decides to use a nuke, they'll use a nuke. If Putin had wanted to use a nuke a month ago no one was going to say 'Well actually this is below the threshold, you'll have to wait until it's been adjusted and approved by the Duma'.

The change exists purely to frighten the West into backing Ukraine less.

 

[swingdog]

The whole 'Putin has adjusted the nuclear doctrine' panic is a great test for showing up those who are either gullible or Russian shills. Putin is a dictator, the Russian nuclear doctrine is irrelevant for whether they'd actually use a nuke. If Putin decides to use a nuke, they'll use a nuke. If Putin had wanted to use a nuke a month ago no one was going to say 'Well actually this is below the threshold, you'll have to wait until it's been adjusted and approved by the Duma'.

The change exists purely to frighten the West into backing Ukraine less.

Timothy Snyder argues that if Putin is successful using the 'threat' of nuclear attack, this will drive nuclear proliferation because everyone will either:

a) see using nuclear weapons as a threat is a successful tactic
b) get their own nuclear weapons to protect against this threat

 

[Andre]

Timothy Snyder argues that if Putin is successful using the 'threat' of nuclear attack, this will drive nuclear proliferation because everyone will either:

a) see using nuclear weapons as a threat is a successful tactic
b) get their own nuclear weapons to protect against this threat

Exactly. People don't see, that if you want to reduce the threat of Nuclear proliferation and/or Nuclear war, it isn't 'provoking Putin' that's the risk, it's not standing up to him.

 

[Zidane98]

Timothy Snyder argues that if Putin is successful using the 'threat' of nuclear attack, this will drive nuclear proliferation because everyone will either:

a) see using nuclear weapons as a threat is a successful tactic
b) get their own nuclear weapons to protect against this threat

Yep.

Can you imagine if the US started threatening nukes to get its way?

In no way can Putin's threats be given any credence otherwise more and more threats will come. States will seek nukes for protection.

 

[Chadwiko]

Yep.

Can you imagine if the US started threatening nukes to get its way?

Or China?

Or Israel??

Say what you want about Israel's current government and the atrocities they're committing in Gaza (which to be clear, even as a Jewish man, I unequivocally condemn)... the fact is that if Israel threatened to use nuclear weapons the same way Russia has, the racists and anti-semites and conservatives would be up in arms about it.

But when Russia does it? Silence and complicity.