Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[IlovethePies]

No surprise the socialist didn’t touch upon this post.

North Korean troops are indeed fighting in the Russian army, and this is an ominous development for the entire world, because it indicates the global character of this war. The war in Ukraine is not some separate development from the US backed Zionist genocide in Gaza, nor from the US preparations for war against China.

NATO troops into Ukraine would likewise be an even more ominous development, because it would signify the spread of the war further in Europe. It would mean that capital cities such as Warsaw, Bonn, London, Berlin, Paris would become potential targets for ICBMs.

What is your point?

 

[IlovethePies]

Do you want to tell us about Russia's illegal invasion with Germany of Poland at the start of the nd world war.

Not related to this thread. Ask me on the Backdrop thread if you really are genuine about wanting an answer.

 

[Bloods86]

North Korean troops are indeed fighting in the Russian army, and this is an ominous development for the entire world, because it indicates the global character of this war. The war in Ukraine is not some separate development from the US backed Zionist genocide in Gaza, nor from the US preparations for war against China.

NATO troops into Ukraine would likewise be an even more ominous development, because it would signify the spread of the war further in Europe. It would mean that capital cities such as Warsaw, Bonn, London, Berlin, Paris would become potential targets for ICBMs.

What is your point?

I knew you had trouble recognising historical events, but Bonn, really?

 

[IlovethePies]

I knew you had trouble recognising historical events, but Bonn, really?

Bonn is a city in Germany is it not? So if German troops are dispatched to Ukraine, then Bonn is a potential target of Russian ICBMs (whether with nuclear warheads or not).

Not sure what your post contributes to anything.

 

[Bloods86]

Bonn is a city in Germany is it not? So if German troops are dispatched to Ukraine, then Bonn is a potential target of Russian ICBMs (whether with nuclear warheads or not).

Not sure what your post contributes to anything.

Ok, so you don't even read what you post.

 

[RonSon]

North Korean troops are indeed fighting in the Russian army, and this is an ominous development for the entire world, because it indicates the global character of this war. The war in Ukraine is not some separate development from the US backed Zionist genocide in Gaza, nor from the US preparations for war against China.

NATO troops into Ukraine would likewise be an even more ominous development, because it would signify the spread of the war further in Europe. It would mean that capital cities such as Warsaw, Bonn, London, Berlin, Paris would become potential targets for ICBMs.

What is your point?

Yes, it's yet another Russian escalation with the intention of goading NATO into deploying troops against their best wishes. If Russia has it's way they will drag the entirety of Europe into their war.

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

 

[IlovethePies]

Ok, so you don't even read what you post.

oh yeah...the word capital excludes Bonn...sorry for the error...hope you will still be able to understand the content despite it

 

[IlovethePies]

Yes, it's yet another Russian escalation with the intention of goading NATO into deploying troops against their best wishes. If Russia has it's way they will drag the entirety of Europe into their war.

I think you live in the anti-matter universe.

This is the parallel universe in which reality is symmetrically inverted.

Perhaps you should submit a thesis on this topic.

 

[IlovethePies]

According to many of the pro-NATO posters here, Ukraine would only ever hit Russian military targets with long range weaponry supplied by the US and NATO.

They have claimed that the Ukrainian regime would only use this weaponry in a "responsible manner", and would confine itself to targetting Russian military installations and assets.

Here we see the targetting of a residential area in Kazan, a city distant from the conflict.

Maybe only a drone now.

But how long will it be before the Zelensky regime, driven by the Biden administration's insane imperative to escalate the war in his last 30 days, launches a long range missile into residential Kazan instead?

 

[Nothing]

According to many of the pro-NATO posters here, Ukraine would only ever hit Russian military targets with long range weaponry supplied by the US and NATO.

They have claimed that the Ukrainian regime would only use this weaponry in a "responsible manner", and would confine itself to targetting Russian military installations and assets.

Here we see the targetting of a residential area in Kazan, a city distant from the conflict.

Maybe only a drone now.

But how long will it be before the Zelensky regime, driven by the Biden administration's insane imperative to escalate the war in his last 30 days, launches a long range missile into residential Kazan instead?

At any stage do you question your choices of information sources?

RT is hardly a great source for unbiased reporting. You know, like you claim you are on top of.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Not related to this thread. Ask me on the Backdrop thread if you really are genuine about wanting an answer.

I'm asking the question about when Russia/Soviet union sided with Nazi Germany to illegally invading Poland, but i can understand why you don't want to answer the question because its too near the truth for you.
Also lets not forget Russia/Soviet reaction when their puppet governments were challenged in Hungary and Czechoslovakia, and didn't they recently pinch some part of Georgia?
To say Russia and the Soviet Union before that is imperialist is an understatement.

 

[Aussie in exile]

North Korean troops are indeed fighting in the Russian army, and this is an ominous development for the entire world, because it indicates the global character of this war. The war in Ukraine is not some separate development from the US backed Zionist genocide in Gaza, nor from the US preparations for war against China.

NATO troops into Ukraine would likewise be an even more ominous development, because it would signify the spread of the war further in Europe. It would mean that capital cities such as Warsaw, Bonn, London, Berlin, Paris would become potential targets for ICBMs.

What is your point?

IF Putin was to seriously attack London. Moscow would be flattened with 24 hours and Little Legs knows it, but i dare say Little legs is hiding somewhere well away from Moscow through fear.

 

[Bloods86]

According to many of the pro-NATO posters here, Ukraine would only ever hit Russian military targets with long range weaponry supplied by the US and NATO.

They have claimed that the Ukrainian regime would only use this weaponry in a "responsible manner", and would confine itself to targetting Russian military installations and assets.

Here we see the targetting of a residential area in Kazan, a city distant from the conflict.

Maybe only a drone now.

But how long will it be before the Zelensky regime, driven by the Biden administration's insane imperative to escalate the war in his last 30 days, launches a long range missile into residential Kazan instead?

So it's only an escalation to hit residential areas and involve foreign forces, if Ukraine does it. But not if Russia does it on much larger scales.

Got it. Your objectivity is really showing here.

 

[IlovethePies]

At any stage do you question your choices of information sources?

RT is hardly a great source for unbiased reporting. You know, like you claim you are on top of.

Nor are the sources that my opponents post here regularly.

All sources are biased. Because we live in a class society, it is impossible to not be partisan. You can be partisan either for the capitalist class (and those who support it), or you can be partisan for the working class.

There are two points to consider:

a) what is the source? Agree, that is important. I am not going to accept a post on Truth Social for example as any legitimate basis for constructing a rational/truthful argument

b) what are the analytical skills of the author to interpret the source? Is the author partisan for the working class (and hence the truth) or are they partisan for the ruling elite (and hence opposed to the truth)?

So yes, RT is biased in favour of Putin and the Kremlin. But they are legitimate enough to show footage of a drone hitting a building in Kazan.

So here is where the crucial issue is.

How do you interpret this piece of data?

From what standpoint, with what political orientation, can it be analysed in a manner that exposes the truth rather than covers it up?

This is the key point.

The decision one makes here is what determines the nature of the analysis - whether it is for the status quo, or whether it is aimed at opposing the status quo.

 

[IlovethePies]

So it's only an escalation to hit residential areas and involve foreign forces, if Ukraine does it. But not if Russia does it on much larger scales.

Got it. Your objectivity is really showing here.

The issue is that you don't accept the truth.

The truth is that this war was provoked by the continual provocations and military build up of NATO trained forces in Ukraine, since 2014.

Since 2022, when Putin made his bankrupt decision to invade Ukraine, the US and NATO have continued to orchestrate provocations and escalations of the war.

NATO and the US want to escalate the war because they see that as a means for overthrowing Putin and dismembering Russia into a series of impotent statelets which will hand over the vast mineral wealth of Russia to US and European mining corporations.

They will even risk nuclear war to achieve their objectives.

So if you don't accept any of the above, then of course you will continue to argue with me about tit for tat...if Russia does this it is OK, but if NATO does this it isn't....

I hope you can see that this is all beside the point.

Finally, i put it to you...what is the way out? How do we stop tit for tat?

The international socialist party of the working class has to be built, in both Ukraine and Russia. Its political goal will be to unite the Ukrainian and Russian workers to overthrow both Putin and Zelensky, seize control of the economic resources in both nations, and utilise them for the needs of the entire population who have suffered enough already.

And likewise, this party must be built across Europe: Germany, Britain, France, to seize political power in all these countries, stop the war, expropriate the billionaires. Use the vast resources of society to end war and instead pour it into what the working class in every country needs.

This is not fantasy. This is entirely possible given the technological capacities of mankind. The issue is that the level of political consciousness in the working class must be raised before this can take place.

 

[Aussie in exile]

The issue is that you don't accept the truth.

The truth is that this war was provoked by the continual provocations and military build up of NATO trained forces in Ukraine, since 2014.

Since 2022, when Putin made his bankrupt decision to invade Ukraine, the US and NATO have continued to orchestrate provocations and escalations of the war.

NATO and the US want to escalate the war because they see that as a means for overthrowing Putin and dismembering Russia into a series of impotent statelets which will hand over the vast mineral wealth of Russia to US and European mining corporations.

They will even risk nuclear war to achieve their objectives.

So if you don't accept any of the above, then of course you will continue to argue with me about tit for tat...if Russia does this it is OK, but if NATO does this it isn't....

I hope you can see that this is all beside the point.

Finally, i put it to you...what is the way out? How do we stop tit for tat?

The international socialist party of the working class has to be built, in both Ukraine and Russia. Its political goal will be to unite the Ukrainian and Russian workers to overthrow both Putin and Zelensky, seize control of the economic resources in both nations, and utilise them for the needs of the entire population who have suffered enough already.

And likewise, this party must be built across Europe: Germany, Britain, France, to seize political power in all these countries, stop the war, expropriate the billionaires. Use the vast resources of society to end war and instead pour it into what the working class in every country needs.

This is not fantasy. This is entirely possible given the technological capacities of mankind. The issue is that the level of political consciousness in the working class must be raised before this can take place.

The truth is Russia invaded Ukraine illegally for Putin's ego and didn't think there would be much resistance from the West.3/4 of million Russia deaths later Putin must realise it was a mistake.

 

[Bloods86]

The issue is that you don't accept the truth.

The truth is that this war was provoked by the continual provocations and military build up of NATO trained forces in Ukraine, since 2014.

Since 2022, when Putin made his bankrupt decision to invade Ukraine, the US and NATO have continued to orchestrate provocations and escalations of the war.

NATO and the US want to escalate the war because they see that as a means for overthrowing Putin and dismembering Russia into a series of impotent statelets which will hand over the vast mineral wealth of Russia to US and European mining corporations.

They will even risk nuclear war to achieve their objectives.

So if you don't accept any of the above, then of course you will continue to argue with me about tit for tat...if Russia does this it is OK, but if NATO does this it isn't....

I hope you can see that this is all beside the point.

Finally, i put it to you...what is the way out? How do we stop tit for tat?

The international socialist party of the working class has to be built, in both Ukraine and Russia. Its political goal will be to unite the Ukrainian and Russian workers to overthrow both Putin and Zelensky, seize control of the economic resources in both nations, and utilise them for the needs of the entire population who have suffered enough already.

And likewise, this party must be built across Europe: Germany, Britain, France, to seize political power in all these countries, stop the war, expropriate the billionaires. Use the vast resources of society to end war and instead pour it into what the working class in every country needs.

This is not fantasy. This is entirely possible given the technological capacities of mankind. The issue is that the level of political consciousness in the working class must be raised before this can take place.

You could have saved a lot of words and just said yes.

Everything you say is charitable to Russia and their propaganda. Yet no charitability is ever given to Ukraine or those supporting its defence. You would have Ukraine hobbled, and what follows is more territory lost, more civilians butchered and subject to inhumane treatment. You can protest that you don't want this, but they are empty words.

No matter how many word vomits or fanciful calls to worldwide socialist revolution you produce, it will not change that.

 

[IlovethePies]

You could have saved a lot of words and just said yes.

Everything you say is charitable to Russia and their propaganda. Yet no charitability is ever given to Ukraine or those supporting its defence. You would have Ukraine hobbled, and what follows is more territory lost, more civilians butchered and subject to inhumane treatment. You can protest that you don't want this, but they are empty words.

No matter how many word vomits or fanciful calls to worldwide socialist revolution you produce, it will not change that.

It's late, you keep repeating the same crap...

 

[Bloods86]

It's late, you keep repeating the same crap...

Boo hoo. We have to keep correcting the same nonsense from you over and over, because you refuse to admit the side you have taken / found yourself on (Putin's).

 

[IlovethePies]

Boo hoo. We have to keep correcting the same nonsense from you over and over, because you refuse to admit the side you have taken / found yourself on (Putin's).

nah...i'm just tired, and you aren't making any progress. Good night.

 

[Bloods86]

nah...i'm just tired, and you aren't making any progress. Good night.

I don't think progress is possible with you.

 

[Dirty Bird]

You're not as intelligent as you think you are.

Who's the bigger fool, the fool or the one which engages with it.

 

[Nothing]

Who's the bigger fool, the fool or the one which engages with it.

I know this one.



The fool. No wait the other one. No the fool.



Hang on.

 

[IlovethePies]

Who's the bigger fool, the fool or the one which engages with it.

Depends on who is actually the fool.

You're basing yourself on a completely unproven assumption, ie that the fool was the one who made the initial statement.