Banter Who will be better in 2024? Carlton or Collingwood? Part 2

[Mr Meow]

Wasn't a gotcha reply at all - any person can see that using 4/18 games to judge a fixture is ridiculous.

And on injuries I never said "best 23" injuries is all that matters. What I have seen from the other set of supporters in here is a focus on top 5 Carlton players not being injured. Unless we are playing basketball "injuries to top 5" would not be a reasonable way of determining injury issues. Again something I don't remember you mentioning

None of this is "playing the man". I don't know you so none of this is personal

But how is a rolling ladder of 18 games any better than seeing if a side had doubled up on the three easy beats or not? How is the method you're referencing actually offering an advantage, especially before everyone has even played each other once? Essendon, Geelong and Port have all been around top 2/3 while not very good at all, while Brisbane, Gold Coast, Hawthorn etc have had some strong form lines while climbing from the lower end of the ladder.

It is playing the man when instead of addressing the topic, you state that a bias against your football club is the reason for the points made.

For injuries, Carlton had 2-3 notable ones at a time for the first half of the season (but essentially none to the big 5 so that much is true), with a splash affecting bottom 10 players (some who are still playing in the magoos, or in/out of the team on form) who didn't move the needle much. There is no perfect way to grade injury lists, much like the fixture. Surface level attempts are a joke and then it gets too complicated/subjective to go further in depth.

But it is self evident that Cripps and Walsh, or Curnow and McKay breaking their legs in round 1 would be more deleterious than missing 5-6 players that are picked 12-22 most weeks.

 

[Arr0w]

"There they go again, blaming injuries, umpiring and fixture"

 

[carlton_99]

But how is a rolling ladder of 18 games any better than seeing if a side had doubled up on the three easy beats or not? How is the method you're referencing actually offering an advantage, especially before everyone has even played each other once? Essendon, Geelong and Port have all been around top 2/3 while not very good at all, while Brisbane, Gold Coast, Hawthorn etc have had some strong form lines while climbing from the lower end of the ladder.

It is playing the man when instead of addressing the topic, you state that a bias against your football club is the reason for the points made.

For injuries, Carlton had 2-3 notable ones at a time for the first half of the season (but essentially none to the big 5 so that much is true), with a splash affecting bottom 10 players (some who are still playing in the magoos, or in/out of the team on form) who didn't move the needle much. There is no perfect way to grade injury lists, much like the fixture. Surface level attempts are a joke and then it gets too complicated/subjective to go further in depth.

But it is self evident that Cripps and Walsh, or Curnow and McKay breaking their legs in round 1 would be more deleterious than missing 5-6 players that are picked 12-22 most weeks.

What you consider a notable injury will differ from what I consider notable.

Pies have had a significant injuries despite arguably three of their most important players in Daicos x 2 and Moore missing 0 games.

 

[Mr Meow]

What you consider a notable injury will differ from what I consider notable.

Pies have had a significant injuries despite arguably three of their most important players in Daicos x 2 and Moore missing 0 games.

J.Daicos and Moore haven't been very good though, have they? Compared to Cripps, Walsh, Curnow, McKay and Weitering. Those are 5 players operating at a 9/10 or 10/10 level almost every week. Maybe only Sydney's top 5 could compare. And yes I'm aware Walsh and Weitering missed a couple early.

I'd argue that missing Murphy has hurt Collingwood more than if Moore had been absent all season.

Pendles has been no good since returning from injury, which can happen with older players. Their midfield and forward line has had too many players missing at the same time at various points (look at some of the second string set ups they've had), then fatigue sets in with the rest of them, especially with a tiny pre season. Same happened to Geelong in 2023.

Carlton were certainly affected rebound wise when both Gov and Saad were missing while Young had to take KPF's, and the GOAT Fogarty's return has been handy, but this "neutral" supporter rates Collingwood's injury disruptions as greater than Carlton. You know, because I ADORE Collingwood. Obviously.

 

[Aphrodite]

 

[Robertio]

My comment highlighting the 4 games (out of 18, not 23 - as Carlton will have played double up games against both Richmond and North Melbourne in their first 18 games) was a comment on the vagaries of the fixture.

Why wouldn't it be a relevant response to the commentary that 'Collingwood are old and washed up because they're 12th' whilst 'Carlton are flying because they're 2nd', when only 8 premiership points separate the teams.

Data is important.

It's not just eight points separating the two teams it's nine other clubs as well, it's not as easy as you think.

 

[Mr Meow]

And you were offering so much!

 

[Robertio]

Your "gotcha" reply wasn't a gotcha at all. In fact I'd say at surface level if you get to play NM/WCE/Richmond twice (as a hypothetical) this season, that means more than if you played a team in 11th twice compared to a team in 6th twice.

I have rubbished injury excuse deflectors of all teams, all season, and Collingwood's woes have gone beyond injuries. But their injuries this season have been a bigger detractor than the one Carlton supporters were sobbing about around round 7 - yes. That's an opinion you will say could only come from a "neutral" but I've articulated how I grade injury lists before, and it does go beyond a simple how many games missed/players missing from a best 23. It's not nuance you like though so I won't bother going into it again. I'll wait for you to play the man again, highlighting some supposed adoration of Collingwood and loathing of Carlton I have, and then we can go from there.

Facts are facts mate you carried on for days when Carlton supporters were bringing up injuries and not a word when the Pie supporters were, your bias sticks out like dogs balls.

 

[Mr Meow]

Facts are facts mate you carried on for days when Carlton supporters were bringing up injuries and not a word when the Pie supporters were, your bias sticks out like dogs balls.

Carried on for days = laughing at whining, moaning, deflecting over an injury list 1/10th as bad as what was made out. And then simply replying to the many, many angry protests sent my way after that.

Yes, I remember. I also have criticised Collingwood supporters deflections (that were still less frequent or intense than Carlton's, even when their injury list was much worse) but it does not surprise me that your bias has erased your memory on that count, which is as obvious as the dog balls you have neatly described.

Carlton supporters on here are whingers and hysterical, in relation to Collingwood supporters. A team that is recently success starved generates these types of supporters. Look at how pedantically you all flock to Fadge's posts with all manner of semantics based nit picking, to seek some sort of validation.

 

[Robertio]

Carried on for days = laughing at whining, moaning, deflecting over an injury list 1/10th as bad as what was made out. And then simply replying to the many, many angry protests sent my way after that.

Yes, I remember. I also have criticised Collingwood supporters deflections but it does not surprise me that your bias has erased your memory on that count, which is as obvious as the dog balls you have neatly described.

Your view that if your best five players are playing it doesn't matter about injuries is a laugh and a view that would be shared by a minority, you are biased here and never call yourself a neutral supporter while you are here and Fadge stop hiding behind this bloke.

 

[Mr Meow]

Your view that if your best five players are playing it doesn't matter about injuries is a laugh and a view that would be shared by a minority, you are biased here and never call yourself a neutral supporter while you are here and Fadge stop hiding behind this bloke.

I didn't say that. There are nuances that both go beyond "how many games/players missing from the best 23" and "how often has a team's superstar players missed". Each team's top 5/10 players will vary in quality/output for starters. Some might rely more on their foot soldiers or a certain part of the field (midfield etc). But generally for most high quality teams, keeping their A grade players on the park and not having a certain part of the field missing 2, 3 or more high quality players are fairly reliable markers. KPP and midfield-based injury pile ups always hurt. Especially if the players in question are of AA standard.

"Blah blah blah you can only disagree with me if you are BIASED" - seriously, engage your brain and address the points. It is seriously pathetic to have to use this as a cover all for why someone may disagree with the points you make frequently.

 

[Fadge]

It's not just eight points separating the two teams it's nine other clubs as well, it's not as easy as you think.

Oh.

Thanks for pointing that out, I hadn't realised that.

Nor had I realised this was a Carlton / Collingwood / Geelong / Port Adelaide / Melbourne / Brisbane / GWS etc. thread.

 

[Robertio]

I didn't say that. There are nuances that both go beyond "how many games/players missing from the best 23" and "how often has a team's superstar players missed". Each team's top 5/10 players will vary in quality/output for starters. Some might rely more on their foot soldiers or a certain part of the field (midfield etc). But generally for most high quality teams, keeping their A grade players on the park and not having a certain part of the field missing 2, 3 or more high quality players are fairly reliable markers. KPP and midfield-based injury pile ups always hurt. Especially if the players in question are of AA standard.

"Blah blah blah you can only disagree with me if you are BIASED" - seriously, engage your brain and address the points. It is seriously pathetic to have to use this as a cover all for why someone may disagree with the points you make frequently.

 

[Mr Meow]

Your view that if your best five players are playing it doesn't matter about injuries is a laugh and a view that would be shared by a minority, you are biased here and never call yourself a neutral supporter while you are here and Fadge stop hiding behind this bloke.

To set the record straight, the team that Geelong have faced 7 times in finals over the past 18 seasons (that has knocked us out twice, and seen us win a premiership 4 other times) I consider a rival/someone I enjoy Geelong beating more than a team that has basically been irrelevant for 30 years.

Why on Earth would I have a bias for liking Collingwood more than Carlton? The majority of neutral football supporters still consider Collingwood one of their most hated teams, one of the biggest games of the season and a win they would enjoy more than most.

I'm seriously struggling to comprehend how Carlton supporters could think there is some sort of bias against their club (in relation to Collingwood) and that alone would account for every single disagreement a neutral has with their supporters.

Help me make sense of it.

 

[Mr Meow]

View attachment 2050592

And that's the best you've got. Like I have said many times, Carlton supporters are incapable of understanding or discussing nuance.

Thanks for conceding so easily.

 

[Aphrodite]

And you were offering so much!

 

[Mr Meow]

That's about the level you're operating at - well done on Gifing yourself so accurately.

 

[Robertio]

To set the record straight, the team that Geelong have faced 7 times in finals over the past 18 seasons (that has knocked us out twice, and seen us win a premiership from 4 other times) I consider a rival/someone I enjoy Geelong beating more than a team that has basically been irrelevant for 30 years.

Why on Earth would I have a bias for liking Collingwood more than Carlton? The majority of neutral football supporters still consider Collingwood one of their most hated teams, one of the biggest games of the season and a win they would enjoy more than most.

I'm seriously struggling to comprehend how Carlton supporters could think there is some sort of bias against their club (in relation to Collingwood) and that alone would account for every single disagreement a neutral has with their supporters.

Help me make sense of it.

Another one bringing up how poor we've been for the last 20 years but can't remember 3 or 4 weeks ago when the Blues beat the Cats by 10 goals, give it up mate and go and find a Geelong thread.

 

[carlton_99]

I'd argue that missing Murphy has hurt Collingwood more than if Moore had been absent all seseason.

This I agree with - Murphy was clearly their best defender and allowed Moore to play less accountable

 

[Mr Meow]

Another one bringing up how poor we've been for the last 20 years but can't remember 3 or 4 weeks ago when the Blues beat the Cats by 10 goals, give it up mate and go and find a Geelong thread.

I'll do as I please.

It's better than screeching "BIAS!" when it doesn't make any sense. Address the points (or ignore them if you are incapable of putting anything together), it's lazy otherwise.

 

[carlton_99]

are BIASED" - seriously, engage your brain and address the points.

Carlton fans have pointed out why those players that were out were so important to the way we have played. You don't win games with your top 5 - if so this Carlton team would be 3 time Grand finalists by now.

The context behind injuries is crucial and it was explored when Carlton had a significant amount of them - so no one was just using quantity of injuries. And yet all of that was ignored and all we got was the shallow "35 players in your best 23" and "FoGOAT" responses.

 

[jezzajay]

Comments like this really do amuse me.

Collingwood are a whole 8 premiership points behind Carlton, courtesy of Carlton having already played the bottom two teams 3 times, with their 4th game against them coming up this weekend. Conversely, Collingwood have played a single game against the same two teams. Not to mention dissentgate against Fremantle in Gather Round.

So Collingwood have a world of hurt ahead of them (as we heard in 2021), whilst Carlton are flying and will contend for the next 5 flags.

Boy oh boy wowee.

Do you own a cherry picker…to go with your cherry picking?

 

[Robertio]

And that's the best you've got. Like I have said many times, Carlton supporters are incapable of understanding or discussing nuance.

Thanks for conceding so easily.

That's loser talk now stop derailing the thread and get back to your class.

 

[Worm4]

J.Daicos and Moore haven't been very good though, have they? Compared to Cripps, Walsh, Curnow, McKay and Weitering. Those are 5 players operating at a 9/10 or 10/10 level almost every week. Maybe only Sydney's top 5 could compare. And yes I'm aware Walsh and Weitering missed a couple early.

I'd argue that missing Murphy has hurt Collingwood more than if Moore had been absent all season.

Pendles has been no good since returning from injury, which can happen with older players. Their midfield and forward line has had too many players missing at the same time at various points (look at some of the second string set ups they've had), then fatigue sets in with the rest of them, especially with a tiny pre season. Same happened to Geelong in 2023.

Carlton were certainly affected rebound wise when both Gov and Saad were missing while Young had to take KPF's, and the GOAT Fogarty's return has been handy, but this "neutral" supporter rates Collingwood's injury disruptions as greater than Carlton. You know, because I ADORE Collingwood. Obviously.

No mention of Docherty who is pretty important player for us one would think. Hope he gets back in time for finals.

 

[Mr Meow]

No mention of Docherty who is pretty important player for us one would think. Hope he gets back in time for finals.

Docherty is a good player, but a 3rd ACL for someone in their 30s brings question marks. Especially when we are talking about season 2024.

Once Guthrie started getting injuries late in his career, he was playing the worst football of his life (when he could even get on the park), right after being AA in 2022.

I do hope Docherty gets a good run at it though.