Analysis Why are we s**t?

[Red Black and Blue]

We’ll have to agree to disagree. Two guys that haven’t played a single game aren’t going to put us ‘miles ahead’. I also strongly doubt Kako will play much, if any senior footy next year.

Could have said similar about D'Ambrosio last year and his addition along with Ginnivan, Weddle and Watson have been signficant in turning Hawthorn in the form team in the comp. 2 rejects and 2 inexperienced players.

Its not experience, same reason why Roberts is out performing most of our senior mids. Its attributes.

Kako is ready made and we have no one in his spot. Easily plays barring health.

 

[bombreys]

Could have said similar about D'Ambrosio last year and his addition along with Ginnivan, Weddle and Watson have been signficant in turning Hawthorn in the form team in the comp. 2 rejects and 2 inexperienced players.

Its not experience, same reason why Roberts is out performing most of our senior mids. Its attributes.

Kako is ready made and we have no one in his spot. Easily plays barring health.

I’m not sure how your Hawks comparison compares to us - except to say Watson has had an impact that Kako could have. I mostly agree with that

The ready-made stuff disappears as soon as they’re drafted. Tsatas was deemed ready-made by many. Archie Roberts was ready-made.

Scott’s not going to play Guelfi nor Gresh in the VFL. Kako’s only chance will be if they play a third small forward

 

[Mootsy]

we clearly need more flankers that we can turn into midfielders, that's the problem, also, we should put Mcgrath at full forward.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

I’m not sure how your Hawks comparison compares to us - except to say Watson has had an impact that Kako could have. I mostly agree with that

The ready-made stuff disappears as soon as they’re drafted. Tsatas was deemed ready-made by many. Archie Roberts was ready-made.

Scott’s not going to play Guelfi nor Gresh in the VFL. Kako’s only chance will be if they play a third small forward

The comparison to them is under performing team made successful by adding suitable players to round out a system not stars.

Tsatas was clearly not ready made and I said that before he was drafted.

I'd be pretty surprised if Scott didn't make structural changes to a losing system and to the list, would be the death knell of his career to keep plowing ahead after promising change. Pretty much every recent flag team has had 3 small forwards and small mid that rotates through. I think he's clearly just waiting for some that are ready to play, rather than an aversion to the role.

At this stage Guelfi doesn't have a contract and should be traded.

 

[ant555]

They didn't tank for 3 years.

Mitchell started prior to the 2021 trade and draft period. His first season as coach was 2022. Despite their best efforts they didn't trade JOM and Tom Mitchell until the the of 2022.

They weren't rebuilding before that either. They'd just started taking picks again.

The rebuild started under Clarkson at the end of 2019.
They got Mitchell back.
They used there first two picks in the draft after 3 years and they continued to move on some of the older players.
I have very reliable info on this.

 

[Rick Ross]

The ready-made stuff disappears as soon as they’re drafted. Tsatas was deemed ready-made by many. Archie Roberts was ready-made.

Scott’s not going to play Guelfi nor Gresh in the VFL. Kako’s only chance will be if they play a third small forward

This is basically right… although I think there’s as much about role as player development and body maturity.
I’m thinking Kako has enough skills and body maturity to fulfill a 3rd small forward role that doesn’t require you to be a beast.

 

[faible]

The comparison to them is under performing team made successful by adding suitable players to round out a system not stars.

Tsatas was clearly not ready made and I said that before he was drafted.

I'd be pretty surprised if Scott didn't make structural changes to a losing system and to the list, would be the death knell of his career to keep plowing ahead after promising change. Pretty much every recent flag team has had 3 small forwards and small mid that rotates through. I think he's clearly just waiting for some that are ready to play, rather than an aversion to the role.

At this stage Guelfi doesn't have a contract and should be traded.

Our small forwards have been; Guelfi, Gresham, Menzie and ADJ.

Every chance Kako and El-Hawli could play R1.

 

[faible]

As for some things not going well.

We appear to want to play a high-press zone but lack speed at ground level to apply pressure when puts massive pressure on our transition defence.
Our midfield aren't great two-way runners, which again, puts massive pressure on our transition defence.
We have a limited number of good kicks in the middle of the ground that results in too many turnovers, which - you guessed it - puts massive pressure on our transition defence.
We look for uncontested marks coming out of the back line but lack high quality kicks in defence.
We have limited numbers of players you'd expect to win a 1v1 marking contest.
We're lacking a genuine hardball get type midfielder that can just grind out stoppages.

There's plenty of decent-good players on the list, there's also holes on the list.

If we can
Find 2 'fast' smalls that can apply pressure and be scoring threats up forward from; Davey Jnr, Davey, Kako, El-Hawli
Find a genuine contested marking tall forward of the ball; Caddy needs a friend up there.
Find a reliably good user out of the back-half; e.g. draft a midfielder with outside game in the mould of Daicos, Sheezel or McKercher.
Replace Laverde with a genuine tall KPD; Reid or Hayes.

I don't think it's insurmountable, a lot of guys on the list are still maybes - Hobbs, Tsatas, Perkins, Reid, Cox, Davey, Davey. If any of them become genuine AFL standard players (or better) then that's an improvement. Kako obviously has a spot there for the taking given our small forwards aren't exactly setting the world on fire, and we assume he'll nominate for us.

 

[BrunoV]

The rebuild started under Clarkson at the end of 2019.
They got Mitchell back.
They used there first two picks in the draft after 3 years and they continued to move on some of the older players.
I have very reliable info on this.

We have a term 'rebuild' which has a commonly accepted meaning in footy parlance. A rebuild is used to refer to the point at which a team makes a deliberate list management decision to move senior players out of the club or primary roles to fast track the development of youth. It is sometimes forced. A rebuild is not the earliest point at which a club recruited a decent player who is still young enough to be in the next flag. North has many significant players on its list that pre-date the scotched earth at the end of 2020: LDU, Simpkin, Larkey, McDonald, Zurhaar, Comben and Xerri, for example, etc but North's current rebuild didn't start in 2016. If North wasn't in the midst of its current rebuild it wouldn't have been on the bottom of the ladder for the last 4 seasons.

When Hawthorn started it's rebuild is not a matter of reliable info, particularly given that we can look at the side which is playing to see when the players were recruited. What you're talking about is a succession plan. There was no indication that Clarkson was coaching the team with any particular focus on the future. There may well be a quote from Clarkson somewhere talking about the youth focus but then there is the way the careers of Mitchell and Worpel overlap. Mitchell broke his leg in Worpel's second year. Worpel took his midfield minutes and had a great year in 2018 (I think it was). He then stagnated as Mitchell took back those midfield minutes. If there was a rebuild in 2020 and 2021 (i.e. Clarkson's last years) Worpel's career would not have stagnated to the extent that it did (with the recovery of his 'form' immediately following the trading of Mitchell).

What happened in 2019 was that Hawthorn took its picks for the first time in 2 seasons and there may have been an incidental succession plan put in place to secure Mitchell as the next coach. But Graeme Wright was not finished his handy work.

In Will Day and Finn Maginness, Hawthorn has 2 players still on its list and 1 best 22 player from the 2019 draft. In 2020 it drafted DGB, Seamus Mitchell and Tyler Brockman (who are still on AFL lists).

They started taking their picks for 2 years and they've got 1 best 22 player and 2 squad players from it. Then look at the players recruited in the next 3 years:

2021: Ward, Butler, MacDonald, Serong and Long (Newcombe was MSD that season). Amon signed as a free agent.
2022: MacKenzie, Weddell, Husthwaite, O'Sullivan, Macdonald (Ramsden and Blanck were MSD that season). Lloyd Meek traded in.
2023: Watson, McCabe, Ryan, Dear (Tucker and B. Ryan now at Brisbane were MSD that season). D'Ambrosio, Ginnivan, Chol were traded in.

In Sicily, Hardwick, CJ, Worpel and Impey there is more of a presence in the current Hawthorn team from the time before the first 2 years of its rebuild.

Whether there were earlier plans or not, Hawthorn is playing a team which almost entirely excludes players from the point at which you're saying it's rebuild started.

 

[ant555]

We have a term 'rebuild' which has a commonly accepted meaning in footy parlance. A rebuild is used to refer to the point at which a team makes a deliberate list management decision to move senior players out of the club or primary roles to fast track the development of youth. It is sometimes forced. A rebuild is not the earliest point at which a club recruited a decent player who is still young enough to be in the next flag. North has many significant players on its list that pre-date the scotched earth at the end of 2020: LDU, Simpkin, Larkey, McDonald, Zurhaar, Comben and Xerri, for example, etc but North's current rebuild didn't start in 2016. If North wasn't in the midst of its current rebuild it wouldn't have been on the bottom of the ladder for the last 4 seasons.

When Hawthorn started it's rebuild is not a matter of reliable info, particularly given that we can look at the side which is playing to see when the players were recruited. What you're talking about is a succession plan. There was no indication that Clarkson was coaching the team with any particular focus on the future. There may well be a quote from Clarkson somewhere talking about the youth focus but then there is the way the careers of Mitchell and Worpel overlap. Mitchell broke his leg in Worpel's second year. Worpel took his midfield minutes and had a great year in 2018 (I think it was). He then stagnated as Mitchell took back those midfield minutes. If there was a rebuild in 2020 and 2021 (i.e. Clarkson's last years) Worpel's career would not have stagnated to the extent that it did (with the recovery of his 'form' immediately following the trading of Mitchell).

What happened in 2019 was that Hawthorn took its picks for the first time in 2 seasons and there may have been an incidental succession plan put in place to secure Mitchell as the next coach. But Graeme Wright was not finished his handy work.

In Will Day and Finn Maginness, Hawthorn has 2 players still on its list and 1 best 22 player from the 2019 draft. In 2020 it drafted DGB, Seamus Mitchell and Tyler Brockman (who are still on AFL lists).

They started taking their picks for 2 years and they've got 1 best 22 player and 2 squad players from it. Then look at the players recruited in the next 3 years:

2021: Ward, Butler, MacDonald, Serong and Long (Newcombe was MSD that season). Amon signed as a free agent.
2022: MacKenzie, Weddell, Husthwaite, O'Sullivan, Macdonald (Ramsden and Blanck were MSD that season). Lloyd Meek traded in.
2023: Watson, McCabe, Ryan, Dear (Tucker and B. Ryan now at Brisbane were MSD that season). D'Ambrosio, Ginnivan, Chol were traded in.

In Sicily, Hardwick, CJ, Worpel and Impey there is more of a presence in the current Hawthorn team from the time before the first 2 years of its rebuild.

Whether there were earlier plans or not, Hawthorn is playing a team which almost entirely excludes players from the point at which you're saying it's rebuild started.

So is your info coming from a couple of people involved ?
Does it include the forward planning. It was not an accidental succession plan.
Take the tip.
And pretty much every rebuild ends from every club ends up playing players that where not in the initial years.
My source is very good.

 

[BrunoV]

So is your info coming from a couple of people involved ?
Does it include the forward planning.
Take the tip.

Are you trying to argue that Mitchell has gotten the benefit of a rebuild that started 2 years earlier than it happened or not?

Is there anything objective in support of that other than the recruitment of one player?

I don't need experts or inside information to argue away objectively provable facts.

 

[ant555]

Are you trying to argue that Mitchell has gotten the benefit of a rebuild that started 2 years earlier than it happened or not?

Is there anything objecive in support of that other than the recruitment of one player?

I don't need experts or inside information to argue away objectively provable facts.

So basically you are right and those who where involved really had not idea what they where doing .
What I am saying is it started at the end of 2019. Mitchell was involved in it. He was involved in what sort of game plan they wanted to set up and when Clarkson started to try and leave itchell out of some of the footy department discussions they moved Clarkson out early.
If you do not want to take in on board then fine but it is what happened.

 

[BrunoV]

And I wanted to add that Graeme Wright sucks gaping arshole as a list boss.

 

[ant555]

And I wanted to add that Graeme Wright sucks gaping arshole as a list boss.

And you are not as smart as you think you are. If you where you would be outlying how the blokes in the AFL are getting it wrong "before" they do it.

 

[BrunoV]

So basically you are right and those who where involved really had not idea what they where doing .

If you want to play that game, do we have to re-define every discussion on the fly just so you can big note the inside info you have?

People, including me, are saying that the Hawthorn rebuild started with Mitchell's tenure in 2021. You're saying that it started at an earlier point in time. But you're not saying that it started at that earlier point in time based on any objectively provable facts (e.g. the point at which all but 1 of the players Mitchell picks in his team was recruited) or even in a way that has any logically consistent application. It's all because someone, whose role very likely ended prior to the commencement of the Mitchell regime (whether that is the case is immaterial to my position but directly calls into question the credibility of your sauce), told you that is when the rebuild started.

How is some individual's classification of the recruitment of Will Day relevant to the rebuild that Hawthorn has undertaken under Mitchell, other than giving you the opportunity to talk about your inside info? Can you point to any other fact which even supports the claim?

Maybe look at is this way. If Hawthorn stuffed up the Day pick, like it did with almost every other pick during this rebuild, would you have said anything? Why is the start of a rebuild that delivers nothing of any significance?

 

[ant555]

If you want to play that game, do we have to re-define every discussion on the fly just so you can big note the inside info you have?

People, including me, are saying that the Hawthorn rebuild started with Mitchell's tenure in 2021. You're saying that it started at an earlier point in time. But you're not saying that it started at that earlier point in time based on any objectively provable facts (e.g. the point at which all but 1 of the players Mitchell picks in his team was recruited) or even in a way that has any logically consistent application. It's all because someone, whose role very likely ended prior to the commencement of the Mitchell regime (whether that is the case is immaterial to my position but directly calls into question the credibility of your sauce), told you that is when the rebuild started.

How is some individual's classification of the recruitment of Will Day relevant to the rebuild that Hawthorn has undertaken under Mitchell, other than giving you the opportunity to talk about your inside info? Can you point to any other fact which even supports the claim?

Maybe look at is this way. If Hawthorn stuffed up the Day pick, like it did with almost every other pick during this rebuild, would you have said anything?

I am done with it. You want to make your own facts up then fine.

 

[BrunoV]

I am done with it. You want to make your own facts up then fine.

I have facts. I posted them. You have addressed none of the facts.

You have the opinion or a person or people.

I am making nothing up.

 

[ant555]

I facts. I posted them. You have addressed none of the facts.

You have the opinion or a person or people.

I am making nothing up.

So you where there then ? in the room ? privy to the conversations ?
I will give you a tip.
Looking shit up on the internet is not facts.

 

[BrunoV]

So you where there then ? in the room ? privy to the conversations ?

It's not relevant.

You don't have a fact anyway. You have hearsay.

 

[ant555]

It's not relevant.

You don't have a fact anyway. You have hearsay.

What do you have ? google search on footywire ?

 

[katana]

mum and dad are fighting again

 

[BrunoV]

What do you have ? google search on footywire ?

Is this going to become about how we are in a simulation or that there is no objective reality?

 

[Test Tickle]

 

[Rick Ross]

Can we stop talking about Hawthorn and Sam Mitchell. Together or apart, they are filth. Just depressing being reminded of their progress …

But more seriously:

• Trying to replicate a seemingly successful approach but coming from a totally different starting set up is never a good plan.
• Taking elements of a seemingly successful plan and turning them into commandments is even worse.

 

[Charlie Payne]

1) Game is 100% played above the shoulders. Mental strength? Non-existent amongst those many who refuse "go when its your turn" test Delist or trade those who show zero in this ABSOLUTELY importance field in ANY sport. "When the tough gets going, the tough get going." V. Lombardi. How many on the list exhibit this. Caddy shows a bit of this and he has played >10games! Bryan should have played R1 and whole year. Archie was a "player" way before Freo game. He has "it". Al Hawi impressed in the 2's. Will be OK with a PS under his belt.

2) Skills when shooting at goal? Cost about 3-4 games this year. Where did that Sports Psyche go at start of year when we didn't miss. See #1? Main culprits Draper, Stringer, Langford all missed from the goal square this year. FFS It is THEIR job to kick goals.

3) Selection. How did #47 keep getting a game? How? Photos? Runs around like a headless chook. Shouldn't be on an AFL list much less ours. Why wasn't Hayes given a go when Reid went down... and down... again? 190cm for a CHB is ridiculous - Lav and RD. Why not give him a go? Stupid. See Archie in #1. Take the blinkers off Dudes. You don't know what works unless you give it a go. Especially when just about ALL our tall Backs didn't play.... Baldwin, Reid - Ridley hardly played. People complain about McKay's form. Poor guy had to play on a Monster weekly whilst the other one had a 190 back on him. LOL his head off. Need another key back. Why did Setters NOT get a game late? Shut down player and gets a lot of it too? Weird!

4) Wright, Jones, Cox should be SHOWN the way to the Gym. Too easily knocked off the ball esp. 2MP given his size FFS!! Applied ZERO pressure. One may go in a trade. Malthouse talked about fat-arsed footballers. Why? Because they inevitably keep their feet and hold their ground. One or two of these please.

5) Hep has gone. What a MAN! Carried the club on his shoulders for years. Hunter has been DL (inj) - There is at least 2 vacancies.

6) Weideman, #47 mad: ) Goldie (to become Ruck Coach), Hind, Kelly (should go) should be uneasy. Tsatas cannot kick FFS too easily pushed off the ball. Trade for a pick?

7) Stringer? Mmmm.... one more year. No more.

8) I can see at least 5-6 vacancies. SHOULD be more after the last 2 seasons.

Anyway, here's to the Cricket - AGAIN