Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

[Chief]

Reminder: This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread. Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that. Thanks.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Number37]

There's a lot of red herrings in your reply. I'm not addressing other books, atheism, or refugees in this discussion.

Quote from a Muslim woman in the article I linked:

"He [the husband] is permitted — not obliged, not encouraged — but permitted, to hit her [his wife]," one of the women says. "That is what everyone is talking about. It should not cause pain. Not harsh."

Does it concern you that a book believed as truth by 2 billion people can be interpreted as permitting a man to hit his wife?

1/
That's not what you said, or asked.

2/
You said women accept it because it is written in a book.
That is a ridiculous assertion.

3/
What is written in a book, any book, does not justify domestic violence.

4/

This idea that it is only Islam that has questionable teachings is ridiculous.
Until fairly recently, a man could not be convicted of raping his wife because marriage was consent.
Right here in your own country.
Did that mean that men were raping their wives because they couldn't be convicted?
No, it didn't.
Did that mean that women were accepting being r*ped because they gave consent when they married?
Of course not.

 

[Rusty Brookes]

The concept of defending honour in Muslim culture is very messed up.

A 21yo Australian woman was stabbed in a shopping car park in a case of 'honour-based' violence

A woman is stabbed in an Adelaide shopping centre car park by her father in what prosecutors described as an "attempted honour-killing". One academic says this is just one case of thousands that occur globally every year.

www.abc.net.au

Yeah that's screwed. Again, not all Muslims act that way but it's naive to not recognise this is an issue.

Just as an aside back in the 80s, teenagers used to rule Melbourne in Saturday afternoons. Shops would shut at 1.00pm and restaurants didn't open till six. As a skater, it was paradise. Anyways one day our skate gang met a bunch of really nice girls from the northern suburbs. They were Middle-Eastern, very cute and funny. We started a clandestine relationship with them - nothing even physical (other than the odd kiss). But they ended up calling it off after they were scared their older brothers would find out and either beat the crap out of us or them. We were just kids who had found each other and wanted to hang out.

 

[Chief]

The concept of defending honour in Muslim culture is very messed up.

A 21yo Australian woman was stabbed in a shopping car park in a case of 'honour-based' violence

A woman is stabbed in an Adelaide shopping centre car park by her father in what prosecutors described as an "attempted honour-killing". One academic says this is just one case of thousands that occur globally every year.

www.abc.net.au

Definitely.

Same goes for many other cultures.

Ex-husbands killing former wives and their children, for one.

 

[burge13]

https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/women-banned-from-looking-directly-at-men-as-taliban-imposes-strict-new-laws-in-afghanistan/news-story/b1a5013d6f6f305fea0e4ae906935aec

 

[ZEV]

https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/women-banned-from-looking-directly-at-men-as-taliban-imposes-strict-new-laws-in-afghanistan/news-story/b1a5013d6f6f305fea0e4ae906935aec

Not Islam's finest moment, being hijacked by these evil men.

"We urge a thorough understanding of these laws and a respectful acknowledgement of Islamic values. To reject these laws without such understanding is, in our view, an expression of arrogance," Zabihullah Mujahid, main spokesman for the Taliban's government.

Let's remember that this is the Taliban and they are distorting Islamic values for their own perverse gain.

 

[evolved2]

Not Islam's finest moment, being hijacked by these evil men.

"We urge a thorough understanding of these laws and a respectful acknowledgement of Islamic values. To reject these laws without such understanding is, in our view, an expression of arrogance," Zabihullah Mujahid, main spokesman for the Taliban's government.

Let's remember that this is the Taliban and they are distorting Islamic values for their own perverse gain.

How are they distorting Islamic values?

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Definitely.

Same goes for many other cultures.

Ex-husbands killing former wives and their children, for one.

It is widely condemned when a non-muslim commits this atrocity.
It's widely ignored when it is a Muslim, and the story is buried if it isn't known the ethnicity/religious ideology when the crime happens

 

[Chief]

It's widely ignored when it is a Muslim, and the story is buried if it isn't known the ethnicity/religious ideology when the crime happens

You think so?

Give me examples of when it has happened in Australia.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

You think so?

Give me examples of when it has happened in Australia.

I can't give you examples because it's ignored... look up what ignored means

 

[Chief]

I can't give you examples because it's ignored... look up what ignored means

So how do you know it happens??

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Since December last year, I've had over 3,000 people — mainly girls reach out to me from Australia alone, telling me that they're victims of honour-based abuse and discrimination."

A 21yo Australian woman was stabbed in a shopping car park in a case of 'honour-based' violence

A woman is stabbed in an Adelaide shopping centre car park by her father in what prosecutors described as an "attempted honour-killing". One academic says this is just one case of thousands that occur globally every year.

www.abc.net.au

A leading Australian expert in the field, Carol Kaplanian, explained honour-based violence can be observed in collectivist cultures — and she says it's on the rise.

"[It's] started in the sub-Saharan region of Africa and then spread into a lot of the African continent, a lot of the middle-eastern countries, but also into the South-East Asian regions," Dr Kaplanian said.

"It is always a premeditated act, that is used to instil or save the honour of the family and ensure that shame does not come on the collective family structure."

The expert says honour-based violence is distinct from family and domestic violence, which is why the term "honour" is still used among academics and authorities.
-------------------
So not isolated to Muslim cultures.

 

[Malifice]

The concept of defending honour in Muslim culture is very messed up.

A 21yo Australian woman was stabbed in a shopping car park in a case of 'honour-based' violence

A woman is stabbed in an Adelaide shopping centre car park by her father in what prosecutors described as an "attempted honour-killing". One academic says this is just one case of thousands that occur globally every year.

www.abc.net.au

There is nothing in the Religion that condones murdering your own daughter.

It's not a 'Muslim' thing, despite having correlation with Islamic countries.

 

[Cmarsh]

There is nothing in the Religion that condones murdering your own daughter.

It's not a 'Muslim' thing, despite having correlation with Islamic countries.

A correlation of an activity could indeed amount to a cultural problem though.

Of coarse even though there may be no Islamic law stating honour killing is permissable (although I question if this is the case in Pakistan), when you have family targeting you for dating a non-muslim, it speaks volumes for how influential Islam is in decision making to maintain the so called honour.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

A correlation of an activity could indeed amount to a cultural problem though.

Of coarse even though there may be no Islamic law stating honour killing is permissable (although I question if this is the case in Pakistan), when you have family targeting you for dating a non-muslim, it speaks volumes for how influential Islam is in decision making to maintain the so called honour.

The article above suggested it was part of collectivist cultures.
Maybe some of those cultures tend to be Muslim, but there are other cultures in places like India who can be similarly messed up.

 

[Malifice]

A correlation of an activity could indeed amount to a cultural problem though.

That's a separate issue though.

Japan has a high rate of suicide (a distinct cultural phenomena). It's a bit of a stretch to blame the Shinto Religion for that though.

There are social and cultural factors outside of and distinct from religion in every society.

The Pashtun of Afghanistan for example have an honor code that predates Islam and the Quran and is still central to their way of life (for better or for worse).

Im not sure we can blame a Religion that expressly condemns murdering your kids (proclaiming it about as Haram as Haram can be), as the reason why people murder their kids.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

That's a separate issue though.

Japan has a high rate of suicide (a distinct cultural phenomena). It's a bit of a stretch to blame the Shinto Religion for that though.

There are social and cultural factors outside of and distinct from religion in every society.

The Pashtun of Afghanistan for example have an honor code that predates Islam and the Quran and is still central to their way of life (for better or for worse).

Im not sure we can blame a Religion that expressly condemns murdering your kids (proclaiming it about as Haram as Haram can be), as the reason why people murder their kids.

It could be that some of the cultures that embrace archaic traditions are also prone to embracing an archaic religion.

Like if Bogan's tend to buy huge 4WD vehicles, its not the big vehicle that makes them a Bogan.

 

[Malifice]

It could be that some of the cultures that embrace archaic traditions are also prone to embracing an archaic religion.

Islam is less archaic than Judaism, Buddhism and Christianity. It was invented last.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Islam is less archaic than Judaism, Buddhism and Christianity. It was invented last.

That's not how i'd measure it , especially in the current forms.

 

[Malifice]

That's not how i'd measure it , especially in the current forms.

To me it looks like you're conflating the Religion with local customs and culture of some areas where the Religion is dominant.

Those things are not connected.

Do you argue the 'Western' phenomena of violence against women to be related to Christianity, or Catholic church priests repeatedly molesting boys and covering it up to be official Church dogma?

About the only 'causation' I can see is if you frame Islam as a patriarchal and misogynistic religion (and it is) and thus creates a fertile ground for violence towards women (even though such violence is prohibited in the religion).

It's a stretch, but there is something there I could see.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

To me it looks like you're conflating the Religion with local customs and culture of some areas where the Religion is dominant.

Those things are not connected.

Do you argue the 'Western' phenomena of violence against women to be related to Christianity, or Catholic church priests repeatedly molesting boys and covering it up to be official Church dogma?

About the only 'causation' I can see is if you frame Islam as a patriarchal and misogynistic religion (and it is) and thus creates a fertile ground for violence towards women (even though such violence is prohibited in the religion).

It's a stretch, but there is something there I could see.

Looks like you haven't noticed me doing the opposite.

 

[carltonchelsea]

Not Islam's finest moment, being hijacked by these evil men.

"We urge a thorough understanding of these laws and a respectful acknowledgement of Islamic values. To reject these laws without such understanding is, in our view, an expression of arrogance," Zabihullah Mujahid, main spokesman for the Taliban's government.

Let's remember that this is the Taliban and they are distorting Islamic values for their own perverse gain.

Name some Islamic values that are good?
Not Arabic values, strictly from the Quran or Hadith!
Go….

 

[ZEV]

Name some Islamic values that are good?
Not Arabic values, strictly from the Quran or Hadith!
Go….

Make things easy for the people and do not make things difficult for them

Whoever wishes to be saved from Hell and admitted into Paradise as desired, they should believe in Allah and the Last Day and treat other people the way they themselves would like to be treated

Whoever among you wakes up physically healthy, feeling safe and secure within himself, with food for the day, it is as if he acquired the whole world.

The one who looks after a widow or poor person is like the one who strives in the cause of Allah – and I think he also said – he is like the one who continuously stands for prayer without slacking and fasts without breaking.

Charity does not decrease wealth, Allah increases the honor of the slave who pardons, and whoever humbles himself for Allah’s sake, He will raise him .

Allah does not look at your faces and wealth but He looks at your hearts and deeds.

The Taliban movement formed in Pashtun nationalism, the conduct of the Taliban is more comparable with the ancient, absolute and strict Pashtunwali than with modern day Islam.

EDIT: It also predates Islam.

 

[sr36]

That's a separate issue though.

Japan has a high rate of suicide (a distinct cultural phenomena). It's a bit of a stretch to blame the Shinto Religion for that though.

There are social and cultural factors outside of and distinct from religion in every society.

The Pashtun of Afghanistan for example have an honor code that predates Islam and the Quran and is still central to their way of life (for better or for worse).

Im not sure we can blame a Religion that expressly condemns murdering your kids (proclaiming it about as Haram as Haram can be), as the reason why people murder their kids.

Yeah, honour killing isn't an Islamic invention. It predates Islam in the Arabic world and right throughout the Indian subcontinent. Romans legalised it too.

 

[carltonchelsea]

Make things easy for the people and do not make things difficult for them

Whoever wishes to be saved from Hell and admitted into Paradise as desired, they should believe in Allah and the Last Day and treat other people the way they themselves would like to be treated

Whoever among you wakes up physically healthy, feeling safe and secure within himself, with food for the day, it is as if he acquired the whole world.

The one who looks after a widow or poor person is like the one who strives in the cause of Allah – and I think he also said – he is like the one who continuously stands for prayer without slacking and fasts without breaking.

Charity does not decrease wealth, Allah increases the honor of the slave who pardons, and whoever humbles himself for Allah’s sake, He will raise him .

Allah does not look at your faces and wealth but He looks at your hearts and deeds.

The Taliban movement formed in Pashtun nationalism, the conduct of the Taliban is more comparable with the ancient, absolute and strict Pashtunwali than with modern day Islam.

EDIT: It also predates Islam.

So, just general day to day stuff that every civilisation seemed to come to,
don’t be a prick and get just on with it types of philosophical thoughts most others had arrived at!
So you’d agree that there is simply nothing really noteworthy, unusual or particularly special about the writings and teachings of the Islamic traditions?
You could Judaism and Christianity in with that last question, might as well bunch the ignorant, Bronze Age cave dwelling cults of death trilogy all in together hey?

 

[ZEV]

So, just general day to day stuff that every civilisation seemed to come to,
don’t be a prick and get just on with it types of philosophical thoughts most others had arrived at!
So you’d agree that there is simply nothing really noteworthy, unusual or particularly special about the writings and teachings of the Islamic traditions?
You could Judaism and Christianity in with that last question, might as well bunch the ignorant, Bronze Age cave dwelling cults of death trilogy all in together hey?

I'm far from an expert on Islam so I will leave your question to those more qualified.

What I was trying to explain that the Taliban draws more from Pashtun nationalistic ideology than Islam.