List Mgmt. 2024 Trade Thread - No.1

[Saintbloke]

Serious question. Why would a decent free agent want to plat for St Kilda?

Coin doesn't seem to work these days. What else can we sell them whilst trying to keep a straight face?

I don't think Lyon as coach is a big magnet for players or player managers, so a little birdie told me.

 

[Captain Paddy]

I don't think Lyon as coach is a big magnet for players or player managers, so a little birdie told me.

The media push this narrative but you listen to any player worth his salt that was coached by Ross and they all love him. - Lenny, Roo, BJ, Joey, Dal, Fyfe, Neale etc

 

[The Punter]

The media push this narrative but you listen to any player worth his salt that was coached by Ross and they all love him. - Lenny, Roo, BJ, Joey, Dal, Fyfe, Neale etc

Neale requested a trade while Ross was coach.

All the others of course swear by RL, but I'm sure there are plenty of lesser players from his first St Kilda time who did not.

 

[Dr Spaceman]

Neale requested a trade while Ross was coach.

All the others of course swear by RL, but I'm sure there are plenty of lesser players from his first St Kilda time who did not.

Well the last thing we need now is lesser players so who cares

 

[The Punter]

Well the last thing we need now is lesser players so who cares

I acknowledge the whimsy, but it does seem to be a theme around here that the solution to our malaise is "just get better players".

I say to our current players "be better".

 

[ScrappyDo]

Henry has played 3 games!

And in 2 of those he was exactly what we needed..

 

[Jesuswasacarpenter]

We were hellbent on making sure the players who nominated us, got to us - no matter the cost. Not saying that's the right strategy to help us attract the names we were after, but that's what we did.

As for Hill, I was his biggest critic, but there's a direct correlation between the coaching and his reversal of form.

Now I don't want to talk about Acres anymore, I lost my faith in the club, and stopped posting anything for years after we got rid of my boy, Acres.

I too was not happy to see Acres go.

 

[Jesuswasacarpenter]

Would Dunstan, have been a gun under Ross?
I reckon Acres would have.

 

[my name was taken]

Would Dunstan, have been a gun under Ross?
I reckon Acres would have.

Acres would have been a handy player. I'm convinced Dunstan just had a skill ceiling that wasn't far off what he was when drafted.

 

[gringo2011]

Would Dunstan, have been a gun under Ross?
I reckon Acres would have.

Dunny was good injury cover if nothing else.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Acres would have been a handy player. I'm convinced Dunstan just had a skill ceiling that wasn't far off what he was when drafted.

it was a concern BEFORE he was drafted.
Made sense for us at the time because for most of the previous drafts we hadn't had a draftee who didn't look like tweety bird surrounded by puddy tatts.

 

[The_Steadier]

Henry has played 3 games!

Congrats to him!
He just moved past Hanners on the Saints' all time games played list.

 

[PandaG]

Neale requested a trade while Ross was coach.

All the others of course swear by RL, but I'm sure there are plenty of lesser players from his first St Kilda time who did not.

More to do playing second fiddle to Fyfe more than Ross

 

[PandaG]

Dunny was good injury cover if nothing else.

My feeling is that Luke’s ambition did not match his talent.

 

[Ricmel]

Membrey is getting a bum wrap,

Come on. Seriously? On exposed form this year i cannot think of another club that Membrey is in starting 22. Maybe North.....but probably not.

 

[Captain Paddy]

More to do playing second fiddle to Fyfe more than Ross

Yeah his covid brownlow speech he talked and thanked Ross heaps

 

[Captain Paddy]

Neale requested a trade while Ross was coach.

All the others of course swear by RL, but I'm sure there are plenty of lesser players from his first St Kilda time who did not.

There would be lesser players all across the league that don't like their coach or feel hard done by.

We're talking about genuine stars of their era ALL of whom love Ross.

Feel like we're in good hands. Our King isn't leading to Rowell, Touk and Anderson. Our squad has a bottom 4 midfield at best.

I think if we fix the midfield, add more depth and find a couple of genuine bulls with some breakaway speed ( I think Windy is already one) we will be fine.

Think our back half is good, thin our forward half is good but suffer from ball movement and terrible all round kicks.

 

[austinnn]

The thing is, everyone says "St Kilda has a bottom four midfield" but why is it so bad?

Looking at this info from this DFS website...

CBAs - DFS Australia

Centre Bounce Attendances are available from the 2020 season. Average refers to the percentage of CBAs each player has attended for the season (considering only those games they have played). Each round is denoted as percentage of CBAs attended for that round. Centre Bounce Attendance Percentage...

dfsaustralia.com

...its clear our midfield is mostly made up of Marshall, Steele, and mixture of Ross, Windy, Jones and Sincs.

Steele and Ross are both pretty handy mids but they are suited to the Andrew Thompson role than the Hayes Burke or Harvey roles. Windy is still developing but tracking to be solid rather than elite, Jones is fast but more depth than first choice, and Sincs is an elite HB who can pinch hit. Marshall is an unconventional ruckman without the standard ruck skills. None of them are effective leaders.

We've got a midfield full of 3rd and 4th midfielder types, but no Rowell and Anderson, no Dangerfield and Selwood, no Petracca and Oliver, etc - or is thst an oversimplification?

Are Crouch and Steele as good as the top 2 mids in the elite midfield, and if not, what are they missing? (Accepting of course that Crouch has only played one game this year)

Who was the last genuinely elite mid that we had? Jack Steven

9

Jack Steven

Age

34

Ht

180cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

23.7

5star

K

12.7

5star

HB

11.0

5star

M

3.4

3star

T

4.5

5star

CL

4.4

5star

D

14.0

3star

K

8.0

3star

HB

6.0

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.8

4star

CL

2.5

4star

D

13.4

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

5.8

4star

M

3.8

4star

T

4.8

5star

CL

0.8

3star

?

 

[The Punter]

The thing is, everyone says "St Kilda has a bottom four midfield" but why is it so bad?

Looking at this info from this DFS website...

CBAs - DFS Australia

Centre Bounce Attendances are available from the 2020 season. Average refers to the percentage of CBAs each player has attended for the season (considering only those games they have played). Each round is denoted as percentage of CBAs attended for that round. Centre Bounce Attendance Percentage...

dfsaustralia.com

...its clear our midfield is mostly made up of Marshall, Steele, and mixture of Ross, Windy, Jones and Sincs.

Steele and Ross are both pretty handy mids but they are suited to the Andrew Thompson role than the Hayes Burke or Harvey roles. Windy is still developing but tracking to be solid rather than elite, Jones is fast but more depth than first choice, and Sincs is an elite HB who can pinch hit. Marshall is an unconventional ruckman without the standard ruck skills. None of them are effective leaders.

We've got a midfield full of 3rd and 4th midfielder types, but no Rowell and Anderson, no Dangerfield and Selwood, no Petracca and Oliver, etc - or is thst an oversimplification?

Are Crouch and Steele as good as the top 2 mids in the elite midfield, and if not, what are they missing? (Accepting of course that Crouch has only played one game this year)

Who was the last genuinely elite mid that we had? Jack Steven?

View attachment 1991068

Any statistical analysis would tell you that Jack Steven wasn't an entire grade better than peak Seb Ross. Different players to be sure, but Steven managed no AA jumpers. He won B&Fs in 2013, 2015, 2016 & 2018. One of those years was satisfactory from a team sense. Ross won in 2017 and 2019. Both of those years were better than 2013, 2015 or 2018.

Of course, the eye test tells you different - peak Steven was a joy to watch.

Depending on how you feel about the Jack Steele years (2020 & 2021), other than that, the last proper undeniable elite midfield year we had was Dal in 2011.

This is what I am talking about



A 13 game, 25 Brownlow vote purple patch.

Now if we need exactly that level from a midfielder to content for a premiership, my view is that we will be waiting a while. There are probably 10 guys in the league who could produce a period of form like that in the AFL right now (Bont, Petracca, Neale, Cripps, N Daicos, Butters, Oliver, Gulden, Green, Rowell?). So basically 1-2% of the league.

IMO we need to develop a way to contend without it. To yearn for the alternative is akin (for me) to a messiah complex.

 

[gringo2011]

My feeling is that Luke’s ambition did not match his talent.

He was our best mid for a patch towards the end and we had no midfield depth. Ratts mishandled that relationship badly.

Plenty of GOPs have had better careers with less than Dunny. Probably a bit of a late developer, poorly developed and a bit ordinary with his disposal.

 

[gringo2011]

Any statistical analysis would tell you that Jack Steven wasn't an entire grade better than peak Seb Ross. Different players to be sure, but Steven managed no AA jumpers. He won B&Fs in 2013, 2015, 2016 & 2018. One of those years was satisfactory from a team sense. Ross won in 2017 and 2019. Both of those years were better than 2013, 2015 or 2018.

Of course, the eye test tells you different - peak Steven was a joy to watch.

Depending on how you feel about the Jack Steele years (2020 & 2021), other than that, the last proper undeniable elite midfield year we had was Dal in 2011.

This is what I am talking about

View attachment 1991102

A 13 game, 25 Brownlow vote purple patch.

Now if we need exactly that level from a midfielder to content for a premiership, my view is that we will be waiting a while. There are probably 10 guys in the league who could produce a period of form like that in the AFL right now (Bont, Petracca, Neale, Cripps, N Daicos, Butters, Oliver, Gulden, Green, Rowell?). So basically 1-2% of the league.

IMO we need to develop a way to contend without it. To yearn for the alternative is akin (for me) to a messiah complex.

We need to nail the first pick we get in this draft. So many good mids this time. If Dalrymple is any good he should find us a star mid.

 

[Ricmel]

Now if we need exactly that level from a midfielder to content for a premiership, my view is that we will be waiting a while. There are probably 10 guys in the league who could produce a period of form like that in the AFL right now (Bont, Petracca, Neale, Cripps, N Daicos, Butters, Oliver, Gulden, Green, Rowell?). So basically 1-2% of the league.

I

I reckon you might have forgotten De Goey, Horne-Francis, Heeney (currently doing it), Walsh, Brayshaw, Merrett, Kelly, Rozee, Anderson (could be best of lot). And you could argue that players like Serong, McCluggage, O'Brien, Reid, Powell, Sheezel, Wardlaw (love that kid) are close or coming fast.

No Saint, on 2024 form, is in this class of 27 or so mids. Wilson I think is a possible, could be on his way. It is a lot of ground to make up and just further highlights that Saints have to make a big play for an A grade mid. Get one, I think Sinclair, Wilson and Windhager could step up into becoming a very competitive mid group.

 

[Ricmel]

We need to nail the first pick we get in this draft. So many good mids this time. If Dalrymple is any good he should find us a star mid.

Unfortunately, hate to say it but the best result we might get out of this season is a top 3 pick.

 

[TheJackal]

The thing is, everyone says "St Kilda has a bottom four midfield" but why is it so bad?

Looking at this info from this DFS website...

CBAs - DFS Australia

Centre Bounce Attendances are available from the 2020 season. Average refers to the percentage of CBAs each player has attended for the season (considering only those games they have played). Each round is denoted as percentage of CBAs attended for that round. Centre Bounce Attendance Percentage...

dfsaustralia.com

...its clear our midfield is mostly made up of Marshall, Steele, and mixture of Ross, Windy, Jones and Sincs.

Steele and Ross are both pretty handy mids but they are suited to the Andrew Thompson role than the Hayes Burke or Harvey roles. Windy is still developing but tracking to be solid rather than elite, Jones is fast but more depth than first choice, and Sincs is an elite HB who can pinch hit. Marshall is an unconventional ruckman without the standard ruck skills. None of them are effective leaders.

We've got a midfield full of 3rd and 4th midfielder types, but no Rowell and Anderson, no Dangerfield and Selwood, no Petracca and Oliver, etc - or is thst an oversimplification?

Are Crouch and Steele as good as the top 2 mids in the elite midfield, and if not, what are they missing? (Accepting of course that Crouch has only played one game this year)

Who was the last genuinely elite mid that we had? Jack Steven?

View attachment 1991068

One of the biggest things I read from that is Sinclair, 0 attendances in wins vs Collingwood and Richmond.

I've always said we are a better team when he is in the backline.

Alternatively, Hugo is a pure mid and didn't get a look in vs Hawthorn and North. Development opportunity missed in my opinion.

 

[The Punter]

I reckon you might have forgotten De Goey, Horne-Francis, Heeney (currently doing it), Walsh, Brayshaw, Merrett, Kelly, Rozee, Anderson (could be best of lot). And you could argue that players like Serong, McCluggage, O'Brien, Reid, Powell, Sheezel, Wardlaw (love that kid) are close or coming fast.

No Saint, on 2024 form, is in this class of 27 or so mids. Wilson I think is a possible, could be on his way. It is a lot of ground to make up and just further highlights that Saints have to make a big play for an A grade mid. Get one, I think Sinclair, Wilson and Windhager could step up into becoming a very competitive mid group.

Fair enough, but despite Wilson being a very good get, we already had one of him (B Hill). What we need is a large bodied, explodes from stoppage, get on my back we're winning today mid. We've needed it since Lenny Hayes stopped being at his peak. And we don't have it, and they're rare, and even if you bottom out for five years who still might not find them (ask Hawthorn).

We've been waiting in the queue for a while and it hasn't worked. Time for a different approach.