Analysis 2016 List Management Discussion

[TheCoach16]

So... it's a good thing then to chase after a guy who won't come cheap in the name of progress even if it turns out to set the club back a couple of years?

While the guys who you are calling conservative are advocating progress by recruiting within our means instead of trading the fame for a "football god".

Wow... never thought of it like that... guess us guys who want the club to build up a good solid list before chasing after the icing on the cake players are just stupid then. And the guys who are wanting us to chase the icing on the cake guys are just Stephan Hawking level geniuses... even if it all backfires and he turns out to be another Daisy Thomas.

Dram, I'm trying to find a way to say this without sounding confrontational, because it's not my intention.

I just don't see any similarities between JOM and Thomas other than an injury concern.

JOM has ten years of footy left in him, Thomas was five years past his best.

There was no interest in Thomas from other clubs, his own club didn't want him. JOM is being targeted by a host of clubs, including Hawthorn who usually get these decisions right.

JOM vs a hit and miss draft choice is not the same as Thomas vs Eddie Betts.

Thomas had lost all his footballing weapons as opposed to JOM who is exactly what everyone has been screaming out for on this board for moths.

They're nothing alike in my view.

Also, couldn't JOM be a stepping stone toward that building up of that good solid list you're talking about? He doesn't have to be viewed as a messiah, maybe just another piece of the puzzle, like Doc, Cripps and Weitering...

You obviously know more about this stuff than I do. This is just a personal opinion.

 

[Dramoth]

http://www.afl.com.au/video/2016-08-31/we-name-the-blues-who-should-go

I have to laugh at Monga's suggested outs. Does the guy do any research at all... or has he just picked out names of players who he thinks should be delisted?

A couple of them he is right about... but for the most part, he is just picking names off the list and not doing any research!

 

[Malifice]

i don't think gibbs is dealable unless an amazing offer comes in.

GCS are looking for experienced mids. They have a plethora of early 1sts, and a ton of cash and marketing money. Doubtfull Bryce would want to head up there though. Hinkley has also stated Port are also looking for experienced players; we'd easily get their 1st off them (plus change). Adelaide believe they're in their window at present. They'd hand over this year and next years 1sts.

simpson will probably retire in a year or 2.

Wouldnt get anything other than a second rounder for him due to age. Not worth it. His leadership and experience among a young backline is invaluable. I'd only trade him if he asked to go for a chance at a flag elsewhere. He's earnt that right.

murphy is 29 and injury prone.

Late first at best. You dont trade your captain for a late 1st.

we can't sell all our experienced players and just field a team of kids in 2018.

I'm not suggesting that we do. I'm suggesting selling 1-2 of them. Then another 1-2 next year. A staggered release to get new talent in the door during the reset.

and gibbs is very durable and not overly quick, given how players are playing well into their 30s these i think it's almost assured he'll still be a very good player in 5 years.

In 5 years if all goes to plan, we'll be pushing for a top 4 spot for the first time. The intent is to maintain that rage for the 5 years afterwards (build sustainable success like Hawks and Geelong have done). Gibbs might still be running around in 5 years time playing (I expect him to be) but I dont know how long he can go for after that. A player we draft this year would be between the ages of 24-29 over the same period, and would serve us better.

Im happy either way with Gibbs to be honest; I just feel that we need to maximise our presence at the pointy end of the draft over the next few years in order to give us the best chance at a flag sometime from 2021-2026, and for sustained success after this period. He's one of the players we could afford to lose who would help us do just this.

If we could persuade him to head north, GC would hand over pick 4 for him in a heartbeat, and maybe also one of those 2nd rounders. That would let us draft 2 players at 4 and 5 (Marshall and one of Brodie/ Mcgrath/ SPS/ Mcluggage/ Ainsworth) and have 2 seconds to pick up one of (Kerr or Battle) and someone like (Venables) - or trade off one of those seconds to pick up Marchbank/ Tomlinson and still have a presence at the early part of the draft.

Id take it and run.

 

[Mentallo]

Boomer Harvey anybody? (See today's Herald Sun)

I cannot stand the little campaigner but nothing would give me more pleasure than him kicking a few goals against lolNorf and watching there handful of supporters fair dinkum spew up while he is doing so.

 

[La Dispute]

The other issue with Jaegar is the size and length of the contract.

5 years at 700k is another ludicrous risk our club shouldn't be taking at this stage. We can bring in two young midfielders on 2-year contracts at 100k a pop.

I'd rather let St Kilda go overboard again and allow their visions of grandeur to blindside them.

 

[Dramoth]

Breust is being traded?

Yes, please

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

Whoreforn would want another late first for him I reckon... or possibly an early second. They would need that for part of any trade for O'Meara if they go for him... which is looking like happening now.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Supposedly the Hill and Breust trades get Mitchell as both are worth first round picks according to Hawks fans.
And they use pick #18 with Whitecross thrown in as the steak knifes to get JOM.

What about Salary cap.. JOM wants $700k & Mitchell would want $500k, neither Whitecross or Breust would be on anything close to those.

 

[Blue__Balls]

What about Salary cap.. JOM wants $700k & Mitchell would want $500k, neither Whitecross or Breust would be on anything close to those.

I'm expecting Hodge to call time soon, maybe Mitchell as well. They may get concessions for Roughead given his circumstances too.

 

[Malifice]

You keep peddling this 5 year reset. Why?

Because you dont fix 10 years of busted drafting and trading with only 2-3 drafts, particularly if you dont trade out anything of value (like we did last year).

I'm not putting a fixed window on it. I'm just saying that realistically its going to take that long to get our list fixed. We have a cluser of talented players at the top end, a massive dearth of talent in the 22-26 year old age bracket, and then some good young kids at the bottom.

The best way of looking at it for mine is viewing the 23 and younger kids on the list now (Cripps, Weitering, Docherty, Plowman, Byrne, Silvagni, McKay, Curnow, Buckley, Cunningham) as the base line for the reset. Anyone older than them is expendable; we want the talent clustered beneath them in depth.

 

[Jimmae]

The other issue with Jaegar is the size and length of the contract.

5 years at 700k is another ludicrous risk our club shouldn't be taking at this stage. We can bring in two young midfielders on 2-year contracts at 100k a pop.

I'd rather let St Kilda go overboard again and allow their visions of grandeur to blindside them.

No one's going to sign him up at that.

 

[BluesRule]

We can cross Prestia off our wish list

http://www.richmondfc.com.au/news/2016-08-31/prestia-nominates-richmond

May mean that GCS have #6.
Dumb question - Would we swap pick #5 and #23 for #6 and #9 so GCS get another top player before we nominate Bowes?
Draft order: McCluggage, Brodie, SPS, Ainsworth, McGrath all gone?
But we could get two of Scrimshaw, Marshall, Venables, Clarke, etc.?

 

[Dramoth]

SOS needs to be looking at all avenues to make our list better, he wouldn't be doing his job properly if he wasn't examining all opportunities to do this (trade or draft). It all comes down to cost and risk / reward, SOS needs to play the percentages and look for bargains anyway he can. This "football god" you refer to would be just one part of that, he is not the answer to our problems but he could be part of the answer if he can be obtained at the right price.

I don't think we will get O'Meara, but I do think whoever does get him will be getting him for a good trade value because of his injury history. SOS won't be as dismissive of his potential recruitment as you.

I'm not trying to be dismissive of his recruitment as you think. I think that he would be a great pick up for the side and would definitely help out Cripps in the middle. However, I am being dismissive of the guys who are of the opinion that we should be chasing him hard regardless of the cost.

The guys who are advocating trading Gibbs for O'Meara are saying "lets trade one of our best mids for someone who will be one of our best mids" and don't stop to think that maybe we need both of them if we are going to go forward. I wouldn't be making him our main target or at least not our initial target for this trade period. We need to do other trades to see what we have when we go to the table to do the deal with GC17 for him.

And if at the end of the day, we can't do a deal for him... I hope that he has a backup club to try and get to because I don't want to see him going to the scum in the PSD.

That will just make a complete mockery of Essendon*'s "punishment". Getting the #1 pick in the draft and the ability to pick up someone like O'Meara in the PSD.

 

[TheCoach16]

The best way of looking at it for mine is viewing the 23 and younger kids on the list now (Cripps, Weitering, Docherty, Plowman, Byrne, Silvagni, McKay, Curnow, Buckley, Cunningham) as the base line for the reset. Anyone older than them is expendable; we want the talent clustered beneath them in depth.

I'm starting to "kinda" agree with you. But I'd love us to add Marchbank and JOM to that base line. Declare Gibbs untouchable and then yes, beyond that, everyone else is expendable...

 

[La Dispute]

Because you dont fix 10 years of busted drafting and trading with only 2-3 drafts, particularly if you dont trade out anything of value (like we did last year).

I'm not putting a fixed window on it. I'm just saying that realistically its going to take that long to get our list fixed. We have a cluser of talented players at the top end, a massive dearth of talent in the 22-26 year old age bracket, and then some good young kids at the bottom.

The best way of looking at it for mine is viewing the 23 and younger kids on the list now (Cripps, Weitering, Docherty, Plowman, Byrne, Silvagni, McKay, Curnow, Buckley, Cunningham) as the base line for the reset. Anyone older than them is expendable; we want the talent clustered beneath them in depth.

The trading mechanisms have changed and we can now accrue talent through many different avenues; we don't need to jettison talented players to get what we want. We also need to focus on the present, do what is in the best interest of the team and retain necessary players.

We've seen our corrosive at can be when good players leave and those we replace them with aren't up to standard. This has been at the heart of why we went backwards under Malthouse. If Gibbs wanted to leave, we can arrange a trade and bring in something that may be of value but while he is invested and playing high-level football, he is a necessity.

 

[Unknown Origin]

I'm expecting Hodge to call time soon, maybe Mitchell as well. They may get concessions for Roughead given his circumstances too.

JOM is a money monger....can't knock him for that I guess

 

[La Dispute]

No one's going to sign him up at that.

He'll ask for it and given the multitude of clubs interested, he'll be signed on a decent-sized contract.

There's no doubt his insistence of a long-term contract is tied to his uncertainty about his knee and his need to have some security.

 

[Aphrodite]

Boomer Harvey anybody? (See today's Herald Sun)

I cannot stand the little campaigner but nothing would give me more pleasure than him kicking a few goals against lolNorf and watching there handful of supporters fair dinkum spew up while he is doing so.

Oh please NO!

 

[Matty411]

Lennon will come cheap - esp. if he nominates us, which I dare say will be his first preference off the top of his head given his childhood support and our interest last year.

Pick 48 (Dogs 3rd) or someone like Everitt/Graham is fair.

 

[Unknown Origin]

Lennon will come cheap - esp. if he nominates us, which I dare say will be his first preference off the top of his head given his childhood support and our interest last year.

Pick 48 (Dogs 3rd) or someone like Everitt/Graham is fair.

No more guys that can't get games for other clubs (excluding GWS)

Lennon does not fill me with any excitement.

 

[Dramoth]

Dram, I'm trying to find a way to say this without sounding confrontational, because it's not my intention.

I just don't see any similarities between JOM and Thomas other than an injury concern.

JOM has ten years of footy left in him, Thomas was five years past his best.

There was no interest in Thomas from other clubs, his own club didn't want him. JOM is being targeted by a host of clubs, including Hawthorn who usually get these decisions right.

JOM vs a hit and miss draft choice is not the same as Thomas vs Eddie Betts.

Thomas had lost all his footballing weapons as opposed to JOM who is exactly what everyone has been screaming out for on this board for moths.

They're nothing alike in my view.

Also, couldn't JOM be a stepping stone toward that building up of that good solid list you're talking about? He doesn't have to be viewed as a messiah, maybe just another piece of the puzzle, like Doc, Cripps and Weitering...

You obviously know more about this stuff than I do. This is just a personal opinion.

I understand where you are coming from. I think that picking up JOM would be a great win for the club... but, at this time... we need to build a new core of players in the club. At the moment, we have a bunch of second tier mids that would struggle to get into another clubs VFL side let alone an AFL list. We need to build a second tier that we know would be capable of playing on any other clubs senior list and in a best 22 side. Going out and getting a cream A grade player this year sort of defeats the purpose of the rebuild of the side.

Some of the trades that people are throwing around are stupid... trading Gibbs, Kreuzer, and Everitt plus our first round pick for JOM and 2 seconds... WTF! 2 people who are currently essential to our midfield and someone who would struggle to make a best 22 at any other club. Lets face honest facts here... years of disastrous recruiting has left us with a base core of AFL grade players and a whole bunch of VFL quality guys. This goes right back to the Denis Pagan days when we were more interested in trying to find the next Kouta than trying to find a new Diesel Williams. Admittedly if one of those big athlete types had turned into a Kouta type, we would have been laughing... but you need to nail those picks... and we didn't.

And now finally, we seem to be chasing footballers rather than chasing athletes.

So... if we can nail an A grade footballer this year in the draft and end up with a load of solid tier 2 midfielders who are good enough, but have been pushed out of the senior side because of either trading in guys who are like JOM or guys who were recruited after these guys have come on and have pushed their way into a side.

What are people going to say if we trade in JOM using our first round pick and Brodie slides to pick 5 and next year, Brodie goes on and players every game and wins the NRS while JOM runs out for us in 12 games for the year? Was that then a good trade?

 

[Funk]

So there was someone lower in the bottom of the barrel than Whiley after all. Someone heard a banging noise last week and opened her up and went **** me Patrick, we all thought you had been back in Gisborne all year. You must be hungry...good food over at Ikon Park.

Re McKenna - I think the comment for R23 in 2016 says it all............

 

[Aphrodite]

http://www.afl.com.au/video/2016-08-31/we-name-the-blues-who-should-go

Cardable posting a link to a video of Matthew Lloyd & Damien Barrett!

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

GCS are looking for experienced mids. They have a plethora of early 1sts, and a ton of cash and marketing money. Doubtfull Bryce would want to head up there though. Hinkley has also stated Port are also looking for experienced players; we'd easily get their 1st off them (plus change). Adelaide believe they're in their window at present. They'd hand over this year and next years 1sts.



Wouldnt get anything other than a second rounder for him due to age. Not worth it. His leadership and experience among a young backline is invaluable. I'd only trade him if he asked to go for a chance at a flag elsewhere. He's earnt that right.



Late first at best. You dont trade your captain for a late 1st.



I'm not suggesting that we do. I'm suggesting selling 1-2 of them. Then another 1-2 next year. A staggered release to get new talent in the door during the reset.



In 5 years if all goes to plan, we'll be pushing for a top 4 spot for the first time. The intent is to maintain that rage for the 5 years afterwards (build sustainable success like Hawks and Geelong have done). Gibbs might still be running around in 5 years time playing (I expect him to be) but I dont know how long he can go for after that. A player we draft this year would be between the ages of 24-29 over the same period, and would serve us better.

Im happy either way with Gibbs to be honest; I just feel that we need to maximise our presence at the pointy end of the draft over the next few years in order to give us the best chance at a flag sometime from 2021-2026, and for sustained success after this period. He's one of the players we could afford to lose who would help us do just this.

If we could persuade him to head north, GC would hand over pick 4 for him in a heartbeat, and maybe also one of those 2nd rounders. That would let us draft 2 players at 4 and 5 (Marshall and one of Brodie/ Mcgrath/ SPS/ Mcluggage/ Ainsworth) and have 2 seconds to pick up one of (Kerr or Battle) and someone like (Venables) - or trade off one of those seconds to pick up Marchbank/ Tomlinson and still have a presence at the early part of the draft.

Id take it and run.

my point is that in 2 years time when simpson in all probability isn't there and murphy could very well join him, our list is looking very devoid of quality experienced players to lead the new draftees that we pick up. we need to have at least a riewoldt, montagna, boyd, murphy, jones, vince, cross on our list to help the younger ones develop. gibbs could very well be the only senior elite player we have there. we certainly don't want to do a melbourne and hand the keys to the kids too early.

 

[Dramoth]

I'm expecting Hodge to call time soon, maybe Mitchell as well. They may get concessions for Roughead given his circumstances too.

I don't think that got any concessions for Sam Rowe with his testicular cancer!

 

[LordLucifer]

Cardable posting a link to a video of Matthew Lloyd & Damien Barrett!

You'll have to cut me some slack there, it was a dedicated Blues discussion.

Admittedly looking at their boof heads for 7-mins was hard to take.