List Mgmt. 2016 Trade and Free Agency Targets Part 1

[majortinkle]

The decision to trade Armo can't be taken in a vacuum. I get the impression Richo has been selling getting back into finals asap to Roo, Joey, Dempster et al, maybe Carlisle too.

Trading Armo unless he demanded it would go against that and really knock Richo's relationships with senior players and morale as a whole I should think because of the signal it sends to the playing group.

You can argue for and against the merits of getting back into finals early, but everything we've said publicly is that we aim to get there as soon as we can.

Armo stays and lets hope he has a trouble free pre-season and enjoys playing with the talent we bring in some other way.

 

[saintsmania]

U cant trade armo...for a young group leadership and bonding is extremely important....

On trading we probably do not rate our youngsters in murdoch,wright- only until recently,.templeton etc but i am sure just like tommy lynch,walsh they may land us a second rndr that we r missing in this draft...

Sent from my HTC_PN071 using Tapatalk

 

[Gangnam Saint]

Not sure if serious...

I'm not. Just illustrating the point that Armo is not the one you would trade.
I don't want Seb traded either.

 

[Mstr Strokesman]

Might be time to revisit the Pelican 5 year plan and see how we are tracking .
Presuming it started in 2013 and this trade period will be the 4th year of drafting .
Are we following the plan to the letter or have we altered course?
Has anyone got the wording ,there was soem ambiguity over increasing first round picks by 50% or something like this
Potential top 25
2013 Billings Dunstan Acres Freeman Templeton
2014 Mc Cartin Goddard Mc kenzie Sinclair
2015 Carlisle Gresham White Rice
2016 Pick 6 or down grade for 2 late first rounders?

 

[John Bonney]

The thing is the team still has 22 players. Besides Steven - which midfielder is likely to be tagged? None.

Armo only had one great year last year where he could have been tagged. Even then, he started tailing off.

For me, he's a great player, but probably we need someone who's more consistent and taggable to take some pressure off Steven.

Armo is tagged,blocked,harassed each and every game.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Since Pelchan joined StKilda as football manager we recruited the following.

B Roberton, Delaney, Shenton
HB Webster*, Carlisle, Savage
C Ross*, Newnes, Acres*
HF Bruce*, Billings*, Membrey*
F Lonie* ,McCartin*, Gresham*
R Hickey, Dunstan, Weller

And a choice of the following to make a bench.
Minchington, Wright, Murdoch, Longer*, McKenzie
Pierce*, Templeton, Holmes, Lee , Goddard*

Some promising kids who may or may not make it.
Rice, White, O Kearney*, Freeman*, Coughlan

Some who may struggle.
Paine , Saunders,

The 18 + four from the bench could be fielded as a team and not be embarrassing.
Those with a * have potential to show a lot more talent as their career progresses.

Meanwhile we lost Cripps, Goddard, DalSanto, Ray, Dawson and Lynch.
I'm not sure how Cripps would fare in a team that has Gresham and Billings.
Membrey > Lynch.


If we'd looked at our last 5 drafts 2005-2010 in 2011 we'd have had:

B: Simpkin Dawson , Geary
HB Gilbert, Dempster, Peake
C: Armitage*, Polo, Ray
HF Schneider, Gardiner , Gamble
F: ?????
R: Jones, McEvoy*, Steven*

The players below wre generally too ordinary or inexperienced to be considered a lock.
Eddy, Lynch*, Cripps* Stanley*, Archer

Young players who we thought had a shot.
Curren, Ledger*

And pushing shit uphill.
Heyne, A Smith, Winmar, Will Johnson, Walsh*

I think Pelch steered us through a terrific effort

 

[_Maximus_12]

I'm not big on the Armitage, leadership theory.
I have no doubt he provides valuable insight and leadership to our younger players, but I don't think it's to the point that it would hold us back from trading him.
In a time where we've been crying out for a successor to Roo, Armo hasn't exactly screamed pick me.
Similarly, a lot of our list will be in their 3rd, 4th or 5th year in the AFL next year. That's plenty of time for them to have learned the required work ethic from our current leaders. In conjunction to that, we're still going to have our current skipper going around next year, as well as Jooey, possibly Dempster and an emerging leadership group of Mav, Newnes, Ross, McCartin, Steven, Goddard and Dunstan.
His form this year, whether he's been injured or not hasn't been terrific, and I would think that the club would seriously look at any offer for him at the right price.
He's also 29 next year, and if we add another 3 midfielders through the draft, trade and FA in the next 12-24 months, is he really going to be a look in while we're contending? Probably not.

 

[Impatient Saint]

I'm not big on the Armitage, leadership theory.
I have no doubt he provides valuable insight and leadership to our younger players, but I don't think it's to the point that it would hold us back from trading him.
In a time where we've been crying out for a successor to Roo, Armo hasn't exactly screamed pick me.
Similarly, a lot of our list will be in their 3rd, 4th or 5th year in the AFL next year. That's plenty of time for them to have learned the required work ethic from our current leaders. In conjunction to that, we're still going to have our current skipper going around next year, as well as Jooey, possibly Dempster and an emerging leadership group of Mav, Newnes, Ross, McCartin, Steven, Goddard and Dunstan.
His form this year, whether he's been injured or not hasn't been terrific, and I would think that the club would seriously look at any offer for him at the right price.
He's also 29 next year, and if we add another 3 midfielders through the draft, trade and FA in the next 12-24 months, is he really going to be a look in while we're contending? Probably not.

Something you soon learn in any professional career is everyone is replaceable. People are not wanting to trade Armo due to his leadership well I would suggest someone else would fill the void. Look how Jack Steven played when he was given the opportunity to captain the side.

Armo injured or not has gone backwards with his personal output this year. He has definitely not shown the type of leadership on the field required. We have seen the best of Armo in 2015, hence I would have no hesitation in trading him for Prestia and for similiar reasons same for Dunstan traded out for Crouch. We have a very limited and slow midfield group a
nd until we make some difficult decisions we will not improve!

Constantly playing solely inside mids who show nothing on the outside is taking us backwards. Armo's decision making kicking into our forwards is another of his major weaknesses for a senior player!

You have to wonder when speed and runhas been such an issue for our team WHY our recruiters chose Dunstan & Acres from that draft?

 

[_Maximus_12]

Something you soon learn in any professional career is everyone is replaceable. People are not wanting to trade Armo due to his leadership well I would suggest someone else would fill the void. Look how Jack Steven played when he was given the opportunity to captain the side.

Armo injured or not has gone backwards with his personal output this year. He has definitely not shown the type of leadership on the field required. We have seen the best of Armo in 2015, hence I would have no hesitation in trading him for Prestia and for similiar reasons same for Dunstan traded out for Crouch. We have a very limited and slow midfield
and until we make some difficult decisions we will not improve!

Constantly playing solely inside mids who show nothing on the outside is taking us backwards.

You have to wonder when speed and runhas been such an issue for our team WHY our recruiters chose Dunstan & Acres from that draft?

I'm not questioning why they took Dunstan, and Acres. Dunstan had the runs on the board, and ticked a lot of boxes that we were lacking, and Acres was very much a best available pick.
There were many around the time of the draft that had Acres as a potential top 5 pick had his body held up, and I think we're starting to see why this year with some of his performances. He's very much a slow burn type of player.
Similarly, right now we're one of the fastest teams in the comp on the transition, the problem is that we don't have the skill level required to execute that game plan to a high efficiency. We need to bring in guys that do. I'd be open to trading in Prestia, for Armo, and Crouch is certainly an upgrade on Dunstan (but we'd have to give up a bit to get him). In reality, neither of these sides would entertain the straight swap for those players.

 

[Mstr Strokesman]

Something you soon learn in any professional career is everyone is replaceable. People are not wanting to trade Armo due to his leadership well I would suggest someone else would fill the void. Look how Jack Steven played when he was given the opportunity to captain the side.

Armo injured or not has gone backwards with his personal output this year. He has definitely not shown the type of leadership on the field required. We have seen the best of Armo in 2015, hence I would have no hesitation in trading him for Prestia and for similiar reasons same for Dunstan traded out for Crouch. We have a very limited and slow midfield group a
nd until we make some difficult decisions we will not improve!

Constantly playing solely inside mids who show nothing on the outside is taking us backwards. Armo's decision making kicking into our forwards is another of his major weaknesses for a senior player!

You have to wonder when speed and runhas been such an issue for our team WHY our recruiters chose Dunstan & Acres from that draft?

Yep cant disagree on this

 

[Rors]

Something you soon learn in any professional career is everyone is replaceable. People are not wanting to trade Armo due to his leadership well I would suggest someone else would fill the void. Look how Jack Steven played when he was given the opportunity to captain the side.

Armo injured or not has gone backwards with his personal output this year. He has definitely not shown the type of leadership on the field required. We have seen the best of Armo in 2015, hence I would have no hesitation in trading him for Prestia and for similiar reasons same for Dunstan traded out for Crouch. We have a very limited and slow midfield group a
nd until we make some difficult decisions we will not improve!

Constantly playing solely inside mids who show nothing on the outside is taking us backwards. Armo's decision making kicking into our forwards is another of his major weaknesses for a senior player!

You have to wonder when speed and runhas been such an issue for our team WHY our recruiters chose Dunstan & Acres from that draft?

Maybe because you need someone to get it out of the congestion before you get it to the outside speed & run

When you bake a cake, do you make the icing first?

 

[aussierulesrules]

This Armo talk is ridiculous. If Prestia happened to want out of Gold Coast and he nominated us as his club of choice, then we'd have more than enough trade currency at our disposal to get the trade done without having to trade one of the most important pieces of our puzzle, that we want to add to, not replace. We have two bloody first rounders that we can trade!

 

[_Maximus_12]

This Armo talk is ridiculous. If Prestia happened to want out of Gold Coast and he nominated us as his club of choice, then we'd have more than enough trade currency at our disposal to get the trade done without having to trade one of the most important pieces of our puzzle, that we want to add to, not replace. We have two bloody first rounders that we can trade!

I guess the argument is, do you entertain the idea because it gives you the ability to keep two picks that will contribute to your next tilt over a bloke who will be past in prime?

 

[StKing11]

Leg speed would have to be the most overrated attribute in footy, speed of mind is much more important. That's why a guy like Sam Mitchell is so good.

Of the top mids in the comp, who is really quick? Probably Dangerfield, Steven, Shuey are the main ones, while Shiel, Treloar, Gaff have a bit of pace and probably another one or two that I've missed. I wouldn't say that any of Ablett, Fyfe, Mitchell, Pendlebury, Sloane, Kennedy, Hannebery, Parker, Selwood, Priddis, Ward, Coniglio, Cotchin, Heppell, Jones, Wines, Viney, etc, etc have really quick leg speed.

 

[FlyingSledghamer]

Why will Armo be past his prime when we contend again. He's only 28. Finals are right on the agenda next year and we plan on contending in 18 19 20.
So he'll be 29, 30, 31. Hardly past his prime these days.
Were actually gona need hard bodied veteran mids if we want to contend for flags, not get rid of them.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Something you soon learn in any professional career is everyone is replaceable. People are not wanting to trade Armo due to his leadership well I would suggest someone else would fill the void. Look how Jack Steven played when he was given the opportunity to captain the side.

Armo injured or not has gone backwards with his personal output this year. He has definitely not shown the type of leadership on the field required. We have seen the best of Armo in 2015, hence I would have no hesitation in trading him for Prestia and for similiar reasons same for Dunstan traded out for Crouch. We have a very limited and slow midfield group a
nd until we make some difficult decisions we will not improve!

Constantly playing solely inside mids who show nothing on the outside is taking us backwards. Armo's decision making kicking into our forwards is another of his major weaknesses for a senior player!

You have to wonder when speed and runhas been such an issue for our team WHY our recruiters chose Dunstan & Acres from that draft?

If we'd taken Merrett and Crouch i'd be happy ( in hindsite ), but neither of them would have been selected for their elite pace.
Who do you suggest we should have taken based on what we knew about the players at the time?

 

[saintbill]

Might be time to revisit the Pelican 5 year plan and see how we are tracking .
Presuming it started in 2013 and this trade period will be the 4th year of drafting .
Are we following the plan to the letter or have we altered course?
Has anyone got the wording ,there was soem ambiguity over increasing first round picks by 50% or something like this
Potential top 25
2013 Billings Dunstan Acres Freeman Templeton
2014 Mc Cartin Goddard Mc kenzie Sinclair
2015 Carlisle Gresham White Rice
2016 Pick 6 or down grade for 2 late first rounders?

Interesting post.

Part of that plan as I remember it was to make some aggressive trading decisions that would be potentially considered unpopular in the short term. This was deemed necessary give our horrid list position at the start of the rebuild. I was 100% in favour of this. I was of the view that almost anybody should have effectively been up for trade if the deal made sense, as long as we didn't go too far and do a Melbourne by moving on too many senior players all at once. Leaving a nucleus of Roo, Fish, Dempster & Lenny would have ensured we still have enough experience at the club, and maintained some of the successful culture from the previous era.

The question I often ask, is did we go far enough? You could definitely argue Del Santo, Goddard & McEvoy could be classed as potentially unpopular or daring trades. The Stanley trade, maybe? Overall, I personally think we are 1 to 2 controversial trades short of really being bold at the trade table the last few years. One of Montagna or Armitage (potentially both), should have been aggressively shopped around IMO. Neither will be much good to us in 2 years, which was essentially the whole objective of the 5-year plan, contend for a flag post-2018. Both would have had some value 2 years ago. Don't reckon Joey would have been against another crack at a flag elsewhere either. Also, this will be unpopular but being worse in the short term could have been very handy. Had we won 4 games instead of 6.5 last year we would have probably got a priority pick. Makes an enormous difference to any rebuild.

I am only speculating of course, but if you connect the dots you could make a very strong assumption that Pelchen's plan was railroaded somewhat with the goal posts changing subtly over the last couple of years. I suspect the club was getting nervous about being rubbish for an extended rebuild and looking for faster improvement to aid our financial situation. This is not a criticism as I image the pressure internally is immense when you are losing on-field and bleeding off-field. We are not Hawthorn, perhaps it came to light that fulfilling the original 5-year plan was just not feasible. We needed to stem the bleeding. As a result going through a deep list cut but was no longer viable. Let's hope we are not introducing Richmonditis by trying to be competitive earlier.

Overall, if I had to rate the execution of the 5-year plan, I would say we have erred on the side of conservatism. We are 2 years away from 2018, clearly short on elite talent in the right age group, yet people are offended by the prospect of trading a 28 year old Armo? Don't know if it was true or not, but if Richmond did offer us pick 12 for Armo in 2013; if we were fair dinkum about making the "tough decisions" you do that deal all day long 100% of the time. Easy to be captain hindsight but seriously look at the list of players available at that pick.

Not sure if we would have taken Cripps but even if we didn't there is a lot of quality on the below list, would have been well worth the punt in what was considered by many to be a super draft year. The majority of players on that list make us a better side post-2018, would Armo? Doubtful.

 

[saintbill]

Why will Armo be past his prime when we contend again. He's only 28. Finals are right on the agenda next year and we plan on contending in 18 19 20.
So he'll be 29, 30, 31. Hardly past his prime these days.
Were actually gona need hard bodied veteran mids if we want to contend for flags, not get rid of them.

He could already be past his prime......

 

[Diehard Saint]

Interesting post.

Part of that plan as I remember it was to make some aggressive trading decisions that would be potentially considered unpopular in the short term. This was deemed necessary give our horrid list position at the start of the rebuild. I was 100% in favour of this. I was of the view that almost anybody should have effectively been up for trade if the deal made sense, as long as we didn't go too far and do a Melbourne by moving on too many senior players all at once. Leaving a nucleus of Roo, Fish, Dempster & Lenny would have ensured we still have enough experience at the club, and maintained some of the successful culture from the previous era.

The question I often ask, is did we go far enough? You could definitely argue Del Santo, Goddard & McEvoy could be classed as potentially unpopular or daring trades. The Stanley trade, maybe? Overall, I personally think we are 1 to 2 controversial trades short of really being bold at the trade table the last few years. One of Montagna or Armitage (potentially both), should have been aggressively shopped around IMO. Neither will be much good to us in 2 years, which was essentially the whole objective of the 5-year plan, contend for a flag post-2018. Both would have had some value 2 years ago. Don't reckon Joey would have been against another crack at a flag elsewhere either. Also, this will be unpopular but being worse in the short term could have been very handy. Had we won 4 games instead of 6.5 last year we would have probably got a priority pick. Makes an enormous difference to any rebuild.

I am only speculating of course, but if you connect the dots you could make a very strong assumption that Pelchen's plan was railroaded somewhat with the goal posts changing subtly over the last couple of years. I suspect the club was getting nervous about being rubbish for an extended rebuild and looking for faster improvement to aid our financial situation. This is not a criticism as I image the pressure internally is immense when you are losing on-field and bleeding off-field. We are not Hawthorn, perhaps it came to light that fulfilling the original 5-year plan was just not feasible. We needed to stem the bleeding. As a result going through a deep list cut but was no longer viable. Let's hope we are not introducing Richmonditis by trying to be competitive earlier.

Overall, if I had to rate the execution of the 5-year plan, I would say we have erred on the side of conservatism. We are 2 years away from 2018, clearly short on elite talent in the right age group, yet people are offended by the prospect of trading a 28 year old Armo? Don't know if it was true or not, but if Richmond did offer us pick 12 for Armo in 2013; if we were fair dinkum about making the "tough decisions" you do that deal all day long 100% of the time. Easy to be captain hindsight but seriously look at the list of players available at that pick.

Not sure if we would have taken Cripps but even if we didn't there is a lot of quality on the below list, would have been well worth the punt in what was considered by many to be a super draft year. The majority of players on that list make us a better side post-2018, would Armo? Doubtful.



View attachment 264158

Very interesting post.
From what I remember many supporters/members, not to mention the media, were horrified when we didn't try overly hard to keep BJ and traded Nick Dal and especially McEvoy... Our "next captain" shock, horror! There was such an over reaction that
the club may have felt that it was just a step too far for their supporters to trade another senior player, although I agree that probably one more ( Joey?) should have gone too, as we still had more than enough leaders and he would have netted us a pretty good pick at that stage.

Also, as you have stated they definitely did not want to make the same mistake that Melboune did in getting rid of their leaders.

I suppose the question is...did they blink and is it going to come back and bite us on the you know where?

My worst nightmare is that we become a perennial mid table dweller like the Tigers.

 

[Joffaboy]

Maybe because you need someone to get it out of the congestion before you get it to the outside speed & run

When you bake a cake, do you make the icing first?

I know Rors the bloke is a deadset peanut.

Funny how the commentators said in both the Carlton and Geelong game how much quicker the Saints were compared to the opposition.

Difference? We won the clearances and HBG's. Our runners were in the clear because of the inside work of Armo, Ross and Dunstan.

But hey a bloke watching from Canberra who doesn't even financially support the club can come to these conclusions from TV.

Some people should realise how embarrassing their ignorant opinions look to people who actually watch live football.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Richmond didn't offer their 1st pick for Armo in 2013. It was last year.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[StKing11]

I know Rors the bloke is a deadset peanut.

Funny how the commentators said in both the Carlton and Geelong game how much quicker the Saints were compared to the opposition.

Difference? We won the clearances and HBG's. Our runners were in the clear because of the inside work of Armo, Ross and Dunstan.

But hey a bloke watching from Canberra who doesn't even financially support the club can come to these conclusions from TV.

Some people should realise how embarrassing their ignorant opinions look to people who actually watch live football.

Agree with everything else you're saying mate but it's a bit ignorant to suggest that if you live interstate and have to watch on TV then you don't have good opinions on footy because you can't attend the games every week. You may not have meant it that way but that's how it came across. I attended just my first game in four years earlier this season and I'd like to think my opinion is as valid as anyone else's on here.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Richmond didn't offer their 1st pick for Armo in 2013. It was last year.

2014.

 

[Impatient Saint]

Hawthorn have won the 3 premierships and may be this year as well not winning clearances. Winning contests is not just about clearance work is all around the ground.

Even with a winning clearance midfield they still need to be able to win the ball back in general play.

Its in this transition where our midfield are exceptionally poor, they cant run and spread to apply pressure, they dont have the endurance to help defence and they are not competitive overhead. When we do win the ball from a clearance how often do they just spray their kicks because they dont have the speed to get clear or composure to hit a target.

Ross has become a reasonable player but he suffers the same weakensses as Armo & Dunstan - break away geniune speed.

Time for some significant midfield personnel change I would think?

 

[Glen Buterol]

Richmond didn't offer their 1st pick for Armo in 2013. It was last year.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

2014 & IIRC it was their first (p12 - Corey Ellis) for Armo & our second (p21 - Goddard). It was a rubbish deal.