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List Mgmt. 2022 List Management and Trading Thread - Part 2
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- May 16, 2015
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I'm surprised both Newchurch and Borlase were retained. They both showed promise, but I doubt they will make the leap up. We should have delisted with an option to re rookie if we could. Same with Rowe if bulldogs don't pick him up.
OK... so today's delistings don't leave us enough senior list spaces to use both picks 23 & 46 in the ND. I think it's a given that we'll want to use both draft picks, so what are our options going forwards? Note that all of our players are now contracted for 2023, so any move we make will involve a contracted player.
I'm not sure what the 2022 mechanism is for moving players from the senior list, to the rookie list. In 2021, it was only allowed to happen between the ND and RD. This would allow clubs to fill any senior list vacancies via the PSD, but not the ND - and is thus no use to us, if we wish to use pick 46. If that remains the case, then we will need to delist a contracted player (potentially re-drafting them in the RD).
So... who are the most likely candidates?
Kieran Strachan
We have the option of delisting and re-drafting Strachan in the RD, rather than promoting him to the senior list. By not promoting him, we create the required senior list vacancy. It also has the benefit of re-setting his RD clock back to zero, so we could potentially leave him there for another 3 years. Having our backup ruckman on the rookie list is not a bad thing. However, this would be incredibly unfair on Strachan, who has busted a gut to get himself onto the senior list, having already served 4 years on the rookie list.
This option also comes with significant risk. Ruckmen are always in demand, and Strachan has shown himself to be competent at AFL level. There is every possibility that another club could gazump us (as North did with Greenwood last year). Given that our only other rucks are TT and ROB, that would place our list in an extremely precarious position.
I can't deny that the option exists - but in my opinion, the risk outweighs the reward (not to mention fairness).
Paul Seedsman
Blind Freddy can see that Seedsman's AFL career is over, as a result of his concussion issues. Seedsman himself, remains desperately optimistic and still harbours hopes of playing again, and is thus extremely reluctant to retire. I suspect that the club allowed him to continue to hope, while they were attempting to trade Crouch/Sholl/McAsey - but now those options are gone, and the walls are now closing in on Seedsman.
Seedsman was one of our few remaining senior players, and is thus likely to be on a fairly high salary. Given that any retirement is the result of injury, his retirement payout would be 100% of his expected salary for 2023. With Brown's negotiated retirmeent settlement already included in our 2022 salary cap, we may not have enough room to pay Seedsman's 2023 salary this year.
I still think Seedman is the most likely delisting - and that we'll be forced to re-draft him in the RD, to include his salary in our 2023 salary cap. However, this was clearly not the club's Plan A, so I can definitely understand any delays in making the announcement. He doesn't deserve to be delisted in the same announcement as Rowe/Davis/Turner, he deserves his own announcement, at a later time.
Andrew McPherson
Moose is a decent player, but his body is constantly breaking down. Unlike Seedsman, his injury problems may not be career terminal - at least not yet. Maybe there's hope that Burgess can fix his problems, just as he worked miracles with Fogarty's fitness.
Counting against Moose is the fact that his contract would be relatively minimal (compared to Seedsman), and thus paying him out in the 2022 salary cap could be a possibility.
The Decision
I think the decisions about Rowe/Turner/Davis were made long ago. I think the club was hoping to create the extra senior list position by trading one of Crouch/McAsey/Sholl, but nothing eventuated. They now need to stop and decide on Plan B. I think Seedsman will be Plan B, but they need time to break the news to him, and for him to come to terms with it, before it is announced.
I'm not sure what the 2022 mechanism is for moving players from the senior list, to the rookie list. In 2021, it was only allowed to happen between the ND and RD. This would allow clubs to fill any senior list vacancies via the PSD, but not the ND - and is thus no use to us, if we wish to use pick 46. If that remains the case, then we will need to delist a contracted player (potentially re-drafting them in the RD).
AFL confirms 2022 list sizes, tweaks rule for rookies
So... who are the most likely candidates?
Kieran Strachan
We have the option of delisting and re-drafting Strachan in the RD, rather than promoting him to the senior list. By not promoting him, we create the required senior list vacancy. It also has the benefit of re-setting his RD clock back to zero, so we could potentially leave him there for another 3 years. Having our backup ruckman on the rookie list is not a bad thing. However, this would be incredibly unfair on Strachan, who has busted a gut to get himself onto the senior list, having already served 4 years on the rookie list.
This option also comes with significant risk. Ruckmen are always in demand, and Strachan has shown himself to be competent at AFL level. There is every possibility that another club could gazump us (as North did with Greenwood last year). Given that our only other rucks are TT and ROB, that would place our list in an extremely precarious position.
I can't deny that the option exists - but in my opinion, the risk outweighs the reward (not to mention fairness).
Paul Seedsman
Blind Freddy can see that Seedsman's AFL career is over, as a result of his concussion issues. Seedsman himself, remains desperately optimistic and still harbours hopes of playing again, and is thus extremely reluctant to retire. I suspect that the club allowed him to continue to hope, while they were attempting to trade Crouch/Sholl/McAsey - but now those options are gone, and the walls are now closing in on Seedsman.
Seedsman was one of our few remaining senior players, and is thus likely to be on a fairly high salary. Given that any retirement is the result of injury, his retirement payout would be 100% of his expected salary for 2023. With Brown's negotiated retirmeent settlement already included in our 2022 salary cap, we may not have enough room to pay Seedsman's 2023 salary this year.
I still think Seedman is the most likely delisting - and that we'll be forced to re-draft him in the RD, to include his salary in our 2023 salary cap. However, this was clearly not the club's Plan A, so I can definitely understand any delays in making the announcement. He doesn't deserve to be delisted in the same announcement as Rowe/Davis/Turner, he deserves his own announcement, at a later time.
Andrew McPherson
Moose is a decent player, but his body is constantly breaking down. Unlike Seedsman, his injury problems may not be career terminal - at least not yet. Maybe there's hope that Burgess can fix his problems, just as he worked miracles with Fogarty's fitness.
Counting against Moose is the fact that his contract would be relatively minimal (compared to Seedsman), and thus paying him out in the 2022 salary cap could be a possibility.
The Decision
I think the decisions about Rowe/Turner/Davis were made long ago. I think the club was hoping to create the extra senior list position by trading one of Crouch/McAsey/Sholl, but nothing eventuated. They now need to stop and decide on Plan B. I think Seedsman will be Plan B, but they need time to break the news to him, and for him to come to terms with it, before it is announced.
dogs105
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Do we have any other possible cat Bs we could replace them with though?
No. They're both Cat B rookies - but if we delisted, with a plan to re-drafting, then they would need to go on the Cat A rookie list. By leaving them as Cat B they occupy positions outside the main list, which we couldn't otherwise fill anyway.
Mr MysteryGuest
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Rowe is almost AFL standard. You need to get AFL games into him to asses what kind of ceiling he has.
We’ve done that, and made a decision.
Newchurch is at a different development stage
jenny61_99
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Why don’t we have the room? We delisted three today and lost Brown and Frampton And only picked up Rankine. By my calculations, that gives us four spots?
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N
But this has been said about a thousand times in here in the last few months along with people being told that delisting newchurch and borlase doesnt help with opening up list spots..
But it doesnt seem to sink in!.. as we still have people bringing it up..
Nope..
But this has been said about a thousand times in here in the last few months along with people being told that delisting newchurch and borlase doesnt help with opening up list spots..
But it doesnt seem to sink in!.. as we still have people bringing it up..
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The Crows mentioned the potential of redrafting Turner as a rookie. How many rookie spots will be available?
Also there was “chatter” about us potentially trading into the first round… but that really sounds unlikely with what you have said.
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Need to upgrade two from the rookie list as we can no longer keep them as rookies.. butts and strawnie..
dogs105
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If Butts and Strachan have to be moved to senior list, and are, then we'll have 2 or 3 rookie spots.
Turner & Davis were on the rookie list. They don't count towards senior list vacancies.
The list mathematics, as of today...
Start position: 37/6/2
Brown, Rowe, Frampton, Davis, Turner: 34/4/2
Rankine: 35/4/2
Future moves:
Strachan, Butts upgrade: 37/2/2
2x ND selections: 39/2/2
The most we can have on our senior list is 38... so someone else needs to go.
Start position: 37/6/2
Brown, Rowe, Frampton, Davis, Turner: 34/4/2
Rankine: 35/4/2
Future moves:
Strachan, Butts upgrade: 37/2/2
2x ND selections: 39/2/2
The most we can have on our senior list is 38... so someone else needs to go.
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shouldnt it be as simple as moving Moose and seeds to the rookie list and replacing their spots on the main list with butts and strawnie?..
No one is gonna swoop in and grab moose and seeds and, if by chance they did, they’d be doing us a favour!
We have a LOT of players coming out of contract in 2023, many of whom are not expected to be offered new contracts. We won't want to be trading out any future picks.
That leaves us with picks 23 & 46 to work with. If we try to trade those for a late 1st round pick, then we give up on getting Michelanney. Not necessarily a bad move, but I think they'll want to be using both picks.
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Hang on.. wasnt turner on the main list?..
dogs105
Sweet Kennels Proprietor
No. Was taken in the mid season rookie draft
No (at least, I don't think so), because of List Lodgement dates, and the rules the AFL put in place last year.
Under the 2021 rules, and I'm assuming they still apply in 2022, the window for moving players from senior to rookie lists is between the ND and RD. I'm fairly sure that draft selections are determined by list vacancies as of the last List Lodgement before the ND. If this is correct, then we can't draft an extra player, and then move a senior player to the rookie list after the fact.
The only way to create that senior list vacancy is to delist a player (though we can re-draft them in the RD).
TubbsFarquhar
TheBrownDog
Unless we delist a second contracted player, we don't have the room on our list. We currently don't have room for #23 AND #46, but I imagine that we will make the call with Seed to open up that spot (maybe pay out Moose too, which we really should as his days are numbered).
- Oct 13, 2017
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So..
how did we free up a rookie list spot to get him?..
I recall in the lead up to the MSD we didnt have a spare spot to use but then with a week to go before the MSD we put Sloane and Seed on the LTI and freed up two spots..
Then surely those two spots wouldve been main list spots as seed and sloane weren’t rookies right?…
And we only used one of them..
As has been pointed out, many times before - we've turned over our list massively in the last few years. Now is the time to see which of our kids develop into AFL players, and which don't. It's not time for cutting the kids before they've had a chance to develop.So we're in the 3rd proper offseason of our rebuild, have gone 19W 42L in the last 3 years, and we're drafting only two players with 2nd and 3rd rounders?
Seeds was put into long term injury list. This allowed us a extra rookie spot by one less senior.
We put Seeds and Sloane on the LTI list, which created 2 vacancies - but we only filled one.
All MSD selections go on the rookie list, regardless of where the vacancy was that allowed them to be drafted.
I’m 100% convinced now (was only 99% before) that Reid is a moron. Complete and utter.
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