List Mgmt. 2022 List Management and trading thread

[Scorpus]

I saw this format on the West Coast board and thought it might help understand our current list position

 

[safeandsound]

It's why i would like us to give Newchurch a taste... as we need some raw pace.

Pace and X-factor around goal .... something we sorely lack .

 

[CrowFrenzy]

Rockliff is currently desperately trying to gain a reputation in the AFL media..

he “apparently“ had mail on Clarkson ringing around to all Free Agent players a few weeks back telling them not to re-sign with their clubs!..

seems the lad wants to bullshit his way into an AFL media position.

rumours of Fog looking elsewhere have come out just about every single year since he’s been at the club..

and he’s always quashed them and said he’s never ever going anywhere else..

I can assure you Fog isn't going anywhere. Loves the AFC, loves Tex. If his career at the AFC comes to an end he will be heading back to take over the farm and play local footy.

 

[CrowBox89]

Looking back to the 2019 draft, we split our pick 4 with GWS for Pick 6 in 2019 and a future first in 2020. I had no problems splitting it, but if we weren't 110% convinced on McAsey being a 250 game all Australian defender for us and his desire to stay in Victoria, should we have looked to split the pick 6 again in what was a somewhat compromised draft with all the academy picks? the suns in particular but also Geelong and port all had multiple mid and late first round picks. Even if Mcasey was taken before us making a selection, we could have still got SKD as a KPD and say a Will day

12

Will Day

Age

23

Ht

191cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.5

4star

K

10.0

4star

HB

7.5

5star

M

5.0

5star

T

1.0

3star

CL

0.5

2star

D

17.5

4star

K

10.0

4star

HB

7.5

4star

M

5.0

5star

T

1.0

2star

CL

0.5

3star

D

17.5

5star

K

10.0

4star

HB

7.5

5star

M

5.0

5star

T

1.0

3star

CL

0.5

3star

or Pickett with the other pick? did the list management miss a trick here and have tunnel vision on mcasey, thinking there work was done with the GWS pick swap?

 

[Gtowncrow]

Some of our play is not even SANFL reserves level..the kicking and my god the tackling..i lost count this quarter of the number of times we grab a player and their arms are free and they just hsndball off AND HIT a clean hsndpass to a team mate..not at their feet or over their heads but to them. Its just horrible and frustrating in the extreme to watch

I think this can be a sign of the strength differential between most of our players vs Oppo. Our tackling players are either generally smaller and/or younger than the Oppo.

Darren Burgess would know exactly what the Melbourne tacklers are lifting in the gym. I'd be surprised if we were even close.

However, age matures the body so hopefully we will have a competitive strength profile once our guys are mid twenties. Small guys however will always be at a strength disadvantage but hopefully have other skills to compensate.

At the moment, Keays is the closest we have to a midfield bull but the absence of suitable mids for us is a topic as big as "war and peace" in here.

 

[jackster83]

I think this can be a sign of the strength differential between most of our players vs Oppo. Our tackling players are either generally smaller and/or younger than the Oppo.

Darren Burgess would know exactly what the Melbourne tacklers are lifting in the gym. I'd be surprised if we were even close.

However, age matures the body so hopefully we will have a competitive strength profile once our guys are mid twenties. Small guys however will always be at a strength disadvantage but hopefully have other skills to compensate.

At the moment, Keays is the closest we have to a midfield bull but the absence of suitable mids for us is a topic as big as "war and peace" in here.

We need to stop our obsession with drafting tiny players.

In recent years we've picked up Jones, McHenry, Murphy, Rowe, Parnell and Taylor, with Rachele and Soligo not exactly big bodies either.

Most of these guys aren't overly quick either, which means we can't apply ground level pressure, particularly in the forward half.

Murphy in particular we need to look at moving on from. One goal in 8 games as a small forward is abysmal, whichever way you look at it.

 

[Gtowncrow]

The problem with your argument is that there's not a single recruiter who would have chosen De Koning ahead of McAsey.

Making that decision requires the benefit of 20/20 hindsight... and last time I checked, Hamish didn't have access to a TARDIS.

There is no recruiter who uses the evidence of passed performance as the sole criteria for a selection. Exposed evidence is only used to assist in the predictive outcome for a player.

Talent spotting is a pretty simple task. Even I can do it! Just watch a junior or minor league game and after enough games, the cream becomes obvious. This method however does not alone predict the future. Talent identification is more technical and nuanced and becomes very involved. It's harder to do because you're deliberately looking into the future. The holistic player should be appraised with a desire to determine what the player will be able to produce during their peak effectiveness. Say 23-30 years of age.

This is the skill of the recruiter and although difficult, it's done very successfully across many sports. (And arts)

Hamish has a record which justifiably, requires attention by the club. I'm positive however, the club during its review and since, would have had a very detailed look at his performance. His role is critical to the club.

 

[Gtowncrow]

Based on where we are at right now. If be forced retiring or moving on Sloane, Tex and Brown. Forcing out 1 of Laird and Keays along with Smith. I’d be bringing in 2-3 cheapish experienced guys from other systems to provide some depth/leadership support.

Pissing around with the bottom end of our list won’t impact our rebuild, we need to cut from the cultural heart. Dump Davis and replace him with a 4th rounder if it makes you feel better, but it makes no difference overall.

This is a good point. We need to improve our best 22, not the SANFL team.

 

[Gtowncrow]

Not contracted. First with stuff going back or other swaps in their favour. Or their 2nd with 3rds swapped. But I’d rather when we trade we do it to improve existing picks. So if their first is too much, we argue about what needs to goes with him, but no deal otherwise.

Brisbane 1st and our second won't be all that different. 5-6 spots maybe.

 

[Sanders]

We need to stop our obsession with drafting tiny players.

In recent years we've picked up Jones, McHenry, Murphy, Rowe, Parnell and Taylor, with Rachele and Soligo not exactly big bodies either.

Most of these guys aren't overly quick either, which means we can't apply ground level pressure, particularly in the forward half.

Murphy in particular we need to look at moving on from. One goal in 8 games as a small forward is abysmal, whichever way you look at it.

Richmond had a type, they drafted to it

We also have a type and draft to it

Our type isn’t very good

 

[MRB37]

Looking back to the 2019 draft, we split our pick 4 with GWS for Pick 6 in 2019 and a future first in 2020. I had no problems splitting it, but if we weren't 110% convinced on McAsey being a 250 game all Australian defender for us and his desire to stay in Victoria, should we have looked to split the pick 6 again in what was a somewhat compromised draft with all the academy picks? the suns in particular but also Geelong and port all had multiple mid and late first round picks. Even if Mcasey was taken before us making a selection, we could have still got SKD as a KPD and say a Will day or Pickett with the other pick? did the list management miss a trick here and have tunnel vision on mcasey, thinking there work was done with the GWS pick swap?

There was a rumour we tried, but couldn't get anyone to bite on our asking price.

 

[MRB37]

We need to stop our obsession with drafting tiny players.

In recent years we've picked up Jones, McHenry, Murphy, Rowe, Parnell and Taylor, with Rachele and Soligo not exactly big bodies either.

Most of these guys aren't overly quick either, which means we can't apply ground level pressure, particularly in the forward half.

Murphy in particular we need to look at moving on from. One goal in 8 games as a small forward is abysmal, whichever way you look at it.

It's not just ground pressure, but aerial pressure too. We don't have guys with size and get easily outmarked around the ground.

And on the ground pressure, a lot of that comes down to technique too. Soligo is one who doesn't have size, but his tackling technique of pinging an arm works a hell of a lot better than whatever McHenry tries, which has no real technique to it at all and often can see him rush into a pack like a headless chicken.

 

[hugecannon]

There was a rumour we tried, but couldn't get anyone to bite on our asking price.

I think that Carlton were interested to swap for their first in 2019 & second in 2020, we asked for both firsts and they said no.

 

[skittlebrew]

We need to stop our obsession with drafting tiny players.

In recent years we've picked up Jones, McHenry, Murphy, Rowe, Parnell and Taylor, with Rachele and Soligo not exactly big bodies either.

Most of these guys aren't overly quick either, which means we can't apply ground level pressure, particularly in the forward half.

Murphy in particular we need to look at moving on from. One goal in 8 games as a small forward is abysmal, whichever way you look at it.

Exactly. Being smaller is fine if they're quicker and more agile but in our instance they're not...

If you're the same speed as your opponent but they're bigger, guess who's going to win the ball? It's a huge disadvantage.

 

[Bazz_27]

Some amazing hindsight recruiters in this thread

 

[George Kramer]

Some amazing hindsight recruiters in this thread

You know its the job of the recruiters to pick the best player available to them and they are therefore judged on how those picks work out? Or you just think scrutiny and accountability isn't important in their role? Guess what, when they **** it up you blow picks which we have done or numerous occasions and stall your rebuild.

Hindsight from BF posters has nothing to do with it.

 

[Bazz_27]

For some reason I can't reply / quote your message George Kramer .

I agree they should be accountable (you somehow decided I didn't think they were accountable and missed the point), not sure speculating on what should have happened years down the track when players have developed is helpful at all. Sure look at who we picked and that those picks were wrong but why didn't we trade down picks to get player x is stupid. Or we should've drafted player x instead. Look at it overall and call it unsuccessful sure.

I'm big on a review for the recruiting / list management team. Sure we can sack Hamish but does that solve anything? Who comes in for him? Did he get told to draft certain players from Burton / Pyke / Fagan ? Same goes for list management which is arguably easier to replace

 

[George Kramer]

For some reason I can't reply / quote your message George Kramer .

I agree they should be accountable (you somehow decided I didn't think they were accountable and missed the point), not sure speculating on what should have happened years down the track when players have developed is helpful at all. Sure look at who we picked and that those picks were wrong but why didn't we trade down picks to get player x is stupid. Or we should've drafted player x instead. Look at it overall and call it unsuccessful sure.

I'm big on a review for the recruiting / list management team. Sure we can sack Hamish but does that solve anything? Who comes in for him? Did he get told to draft certain players from Burton / Pyke / Fagan ? Same goes for list management which is arguably easier to replace

What do you mean its not helpful? Look at the superdraft whilst we did nothing and Port manouvered up to get Rozee who this year is blossoming into a decent mid. They drafted Butters, we drafted duds.

You can't call it unsuccessful without actually look at the players drafted, who they missed out on and the poor decisions that were made.

Solve anything? Who do we get? How about we go poach Melbourne's or Freo's draft guy. We have a body of work from Hamish to assess and he has failed with too many high draft picks. We currently have a shit midfield, we are lacking in decent KPD, KPF, small forwards and have not one developing ruckman on our list. Looking at others for blame when its this bad is just silly.

 

[Anzacpaul]

I can assure you Fog isn't going anywhere. Loves the AFC, loves Tex. If his career at the AFC comes to an end he will be heading back to take over the farm and play local footy.

So Brisbane offer him a 3 year deal and he says "Na i'd rather head back and play A's for Lucindale"?

Seems legit.

 

[Thetrader15]

We need to stop our obsession with drafting tiny players.

In recent years we've picked up Jones, McHenry, Murphy, Rowe, Parnell and Taylor, with Rachele and Soligo not exactly big bodies either.

Most of these guys aren't overly quick either, which means we can't apply ground level pressure, particularly in the forward half.

Murphy in particular we need to look at moving on from. One goal in 8 games as a small forward is abysmal, whichever way you look at it.

Rachelle not a big body? Interesting! Sure he's not tall, but he's a nugget for a 18yo.

We've also picked up players like Keays, Hately, Hinge, Cook, Dawson, Berry and Nankervis.

These are all the much requested big bodied mids (Berry's short, but certainly strong).

Other than Cook / Nankervis, most are average pace at best. I think that's what's missing, is pace through the midfield/forward, hence why I'd be playing Cook and Schoenberg most weeks, certainly ahead of Crouch.

 

[Vader]

There is no recruiter who uses the evidence of passed performance as the sole criteria for a selection. Exposed evidence is only used to assist in the predictive outcome for a player.

Talent spotting is a pretty simple task. Even I can do it! Just watch a junior or minor league game and after enough games, the cream becomes obvious. This method however does not alone predict the future. Talent identification is more technical and nuanced and becomes very involved. It's harder to do because you're deliberately looking into the future. The holistic player should be appraised with a desire to determine what the player will be able to produce during their peak effectiveness. Say 23-30 years of age.

This is the skill of the recruiter and although difficult, it's done very successfully across many sports. (And arts)

Hamish has a record which justifiably, requires attention by the club. I'm positive however, the club during its review and since, would have had a very detailed look at his performance. His role is critical to the club.

This is reasonable, and I think that a review of Ogilvie's decisions is warranted given that his 1st round draftee record is almost as bad as Fantasia's was (before he was sacked).

What we really don't know is how much blame lies with Ogilvie, and how much with the player development coaches.

... but the fact remains that there wasn't a recruiter at any of the clubs who would have selected De Koning ahead of McAsey, so to criticise him for having selected McAsey is just plain ridiculous.

 

[Bearded Clam]

So Brisbane offer him a 3 year deal and he says "Na i'd rather head back and play A's for Lucindale"?

Seems legit.

Why?..

Who knows what, or how, the lad thinks..

He wouldnt be the first sportsman to give up a professional sporting career.. walking away and instead prefering to chose a different lifestyle..

I remember having a conversation around the time he was drafted with someone that was personal friends with the recruiters at both the dogs and the pies and ge was told that Fog made it clear to the fogs and the pies that he wasnt interested at all in moving interstate.

Who knows what he said to other clubs.

Maybe the kid is one of those types that doesnt care much for moving too far away from his home/home state and, if he had to, would just say **** it and go do something else..

 

[Dangerousfield]

Some amazing hindsight recruiters in this thread

Getting it right is what they're paid to do!

Hindsight decides if they got it right and hindsight tells us we've mucked it up every draft since way back when we called Milera instead of Charlie Curnow.

Our recruiters get judged against other recruiters, let's just say we're not in the top 3/4 of the recruiting table :-(

 

[bigman]

Time in the mid season draft or end of year draft to pick up a developing ruck. We have to look for the future and try and obtain a ruck who is athletic and mobile, can kick and can take a good grab.

I have put the red line through Billy and Berg for reasons outlined in other threads.

We have to start looking at the team we want in a few years time.

We are also desperately sure of ruck talent. Most teams have at least three definitive rucks on their list. Its time we prioritized this as a definitive need for our playing list.

 

[Gtowncrow]

This is reasonable, and I think that a review of Ogilvie's decisions is warranted given that his 1st round draftee record is almost as bad as Fantasia's was (before he was sacked).

What we really don't know is how much blame lies with Ogilvie, and how much with the player development coaches.

... but the fact remains that there wasn't a recruiter at any of the clubs who would have selected De Koning ahead of McAsey, so to criticise him for having selected McAsey is just plain ridiculous.

We'll never know for sure passed pick 6. But your opinion is fair enough. No argument from me.

 

[Bazz_27]

Getting it right is what they're paid to do!

Hindsight decides if they got it right and hindsight tells us we've mucked it up every draft since way back when we called Milera instead of Charlie Curnow.

Our recruiters get judged against other recruiters, let's just say we're not in the top 3/4 of the recruiting table :-(

So with McGovern, Jenkins, Walker, Ramsey , Dear on our list we should've picked another key forward? Ok then...