List Mgmt. 2022 Trade Thread - Part II

[Yawkey way]

Butler is pretty much just pressure now and Snags has had his spirit crushed. A new forwards coach could have us reinvented up forward in about a week. Sending anyone into our forward line as it is is just setting them up to fail. If we dropped forwards who can't get a kick at the moment we'd have King as the solo forward.

We sit the ball on kings head but aren’t a great crumbing team, what’s wrong with this picture. Butler was killing it, Higgins was kicking goals. Either the set up is all wrong or they forgot how to play.

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

Owens is supposed to have a the work ethic and has latched on to Steele early and is mimicking everything he does. He played first for a reason and that kind of dedication seems to pay dividends. Walsh and Bailey Smith were apparently both very driven kids who left no stone unturned. Hopefully Owens has that kind of ceiling

This is what had me so excited at the start of the season. If he can do all the Steele like contested things like tackling and two way running but add his X factor goal kicking and aerial prowess he’s gonna be a big game player in our future

 

[The_Steadier]

With Hill, part of the issue from a list management view is that Ratten can't help but play him.

Last Sunday, none of McKenzie, Wood or Billings played. Someone needs to come out for those guys if they are to play. Ratten has shown it won't be Hill.

Hill doesn't play in a position of need and he's the highest paid player at the club. I think if someone took all of his salary, I'm not sure I'd be too worried about what I'd be getting in return. Hill wasn't in my Round 1 2023 team. I'd rather have all three players I mentioned earlier or NWM (who also wasn't in my team).

My previous talent comment was about Gresham. We haven't gotten from Hill what we thought we were getting.

It's like watching a slow motion car wreck happen, and being unable to do anything but see it unfold.

1. Commit to re-signing ratten after a dead cat bounce of a relatively easy fixture and no injuries has us looking way better than we really are at 8-3 mid 2022.

2. The rest of 2022 shows just how lucky we were to be 8-3, and the truth is we have gone nowhere but sideways or backwards since ratts took over.
This is despite the list now being largely in its prime years.

3. End 2022- We ditch hill because he's practically useless under ratten's style.

4. Mid 2023- we sack ratten because the evidence is now overwhelming... his style has been proven to be taking us nowhere and we are still fighting it out for 10th spot at best.

5. End 2023- new coach appointed who throws ratt's chaosball 'just go out and play' style in the bin.
New coach desperately needs a brad hill type to implement a run and carry, structured gameplan.

Yay.

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

It's like watching a slow motion car wreck happen, and being unable to do anything but see it unfold.

1. Commit to re-signing ratten after a dead cat bounce of a relatively easy fixture and no injuries has us looking way better than we really are at 8-3 mid 2022.

2. The rest of 2022 shows just how lucky we were to be 8-3, and the truth is we have gone nowhere but sideways or backwards since ratts took over.
This is despite the list now being largely in its prime years.

3. End 2022- We ditch hill because he's practically useless under ratten's style.

4. Mid 2023- we sack ratten because the evidence is now overwhelming... his style has been proven to be taking us nowhere and we are still fighting it out for 10th spot at best.

5. End 2023- new coach appointed who throws ratt's chaosball 'just go out and play' style in the bin.
New coach desperately needs a brad hill type to implement a run and carry, structured gameplan.

Yay.

That’s one of the grimmest views of the future I’ve read here. A depressing realism that makes it seem worse

 

[Saint Shags]

But why take a s**t pick AND pay some of the salary. We have the cash back in two years.
It's nothing like Treloar

If we are paying part of his wage because he no longer wants to be here then we get a good pick.

Treloar didn't want out. Hill does.
We have room in the cap. Pies still don't.
Not a fire sale at all.
And the fact we have explayers like Roo say we should be getting a 2nd rounder back and paying some wage is ridiculous.

 

[gringo2011]

We sit the ball on kings head but aren’t a great crumbing team, what’d wrong with this picture. Butler was killing it, Higgins was kicking goals. Either the set up is all wrong or they forgot how to play.

There is an art to the spill. Hayes actually has that ability. If he isn't marking it he's already plotted where to let it fall to a small. That's forward craft and exactly the sort of thing a great forwards coach should teaching Max to do. Max tends to mark or let it go past him and stand there looking pissed off.

It should come with experience but why not fast track him.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

OK what if we beat Port in round 6?
What if we had an easier fixture and played West Coast twice instead of Geelong , and won.

We get into finals.

Are we satisfied?
Do we panic and melt and sack the coach and trade half our list?

Because we could easily be exactly the same team and be playing finals if things had been a little different.

( Got to say i'm still disapointed with the way we fell away in the second half of the year. ) .

 

[The_Steadier]

That’s one of the grimmest views of the future I’ve read here. A depressing realism that makes it seem worse

On the plus side- I think our list has more genuine gun talent on it than we have had since the ross lyon era.

Once we get a coach who can actually get the best out of the likes of higgins, gresham, clark, coffield, king, membrey, howard, sharman, butler etc.... we can very easily rocket up the ladder and into flag contention like the pies have done once they ditched buckley.

 

[L_W_P]

I bet the people running our trade/list management loaded up on Bitcoin back in Oct/Nov and then panic sold it all 4 months later.

Giving Hill away for a pick in the 30s AND paying part of his salary is ****ing insane.

 

[The Punter]

That’s one of the grimmest views of the future I’ve read here. A depressing realism that makes it seem worse

For semantics' sake, it can either be grim or be realism, but it cannot be both.

It'd be nice if Hill could do that run and carry thing and not run straight into trouble. Sinclair manages it somehow.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not for just giving Hill away. But for me, it's get his entire salary off the books, because he's not merely one of the better paid players at the club, he earns more than any other single player at the club. And he's probably going to finish 8-10 in the B&F despite playing almost every game.

So if we have to take some of his salary, it's a no from me.

But his salary is the priority IMO because it's a lot of money tied up in not nearly enough production.

And I'm not for moving the chess pieces around to find a place for him.

IMO he's not a better HBF than Sinclair or Long, a better wingman than McKenzie, Wood, Long, Billings or NWM, or a better HFF than Butler, Higgins or Long, based on recent performance. Particularly because all of the players I mentioned would be on half of his salary at most.

Imagine what that salary disappearing does in terms of opportunity to add in actual positions of need.

 

[gringo2011]

OK what if we beat Port in round 6?
What if we had an easier fixture and played West Coast twice instead of Geelong , and won.

We get into finals.

Are we satisfied?
Do we panic and melt and sack the coach and trade half our list?

Because we could easily be exactly the same team and be playing finals if things had been a little different.

( Got to say i'm still disapointed with the way we fell away in the second half of the year. ) .

I thought the whole year was average but finals would have probably kept membership and satisfaction high. I don't like the way we play footy under Ratts. It's uninspiring, boring and without even wins to fall back on it makes watching the side a painful experience. Even in the wins lots of it was relief not satisfaction. There is no obvious theme or game plan and nothing looks cohesive. It might actually be for the best because I doubt Ratts has a premiership in him. Sometimes you are better to take the hit and shake things up that stumble slightly forwards with luck.

 

[gringo2011]

For semantics' sake, it can either be grim or be realism, but it cannot be both.

It'd be nice if Hill could do that run and carry thing and not run straight into trouble. Sinclair manages it somehow.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not for just giving Hill away. But for me, it's get his entire salary off the books, because he's not merely one of the better paid players at the club, he earns more than any other single player at the club. And he's probably going to finish 8-10 in the B&F despite playing almost every game.

So if we have to take some of his salary, it's a no from me.

But his salary is the priority IMO because it's a lot of money tied up in not nearly enough production.

And I'm not for moving the chess pieces around to find a place for him.

IMO he's not a better HBF than Sinclair or Long, a better wingman than McKenzie, Wood, Long, Billings or NWM, or a better HFF than Butler, Higgins or Long, based on recent performance. Particularly because all of the players I mentioned would be on half of his salary at most.

Imagine what that salary disappearing does in terms of opportunity to add in actual positions of need.

He went pretty high in the B and F from memory. He will be a loss despite what people think. He's 100% a disappointment but he needs to be replaced to stand still.

 

[The_Steadier]

OK what if we beat Port in round 6?
What if we had an easier fixture and played West Coast twice instead of Geelong , and won.

We get into finals.

Are we satisfied?
Do we panic and melt and sack the coach and trade half our list?

Because we could easily be exactly the same team and be playing finals if things had been a little different.

( Got to say i'm still disapointed with the way we fell away in the second half of the year. ) .

No way would I be satisfied if we fell into finals playing like we have this year with an easier draw.

Pretty much every win we had was FAR from convincing... and practically every loss we had was because of the same systemic problems occuring over and over.

Plus we had as good a run with injuries as you will get, plus the bulk of our list are in their prime years.

This is as good as it gets?
Falling into 8th with a soft draw, being pantsed in week 1 finals?

Yuck.

I want us to win a flag- forget the win loss and look at how we have played this year vs how the flag contenders have played.

We are miles off flag contention- and haven't moved an inch closer to it in 2 full years now.
How far we are from a flag needs to be what we are measuring- not win/loss or whether we scrape into 8th.

 

[Yawkey way]

There is an art to the spill. Hayes actually has that ability. If he isn't marking it he's already plotted where to let it fall to a small. That's forward craft and exactly the sort of thing a great forwards coach should teaching Max to do. Max tends to mark or let it go past him and stand there looking pissed off.

It should come with experience but why not fast track him.

Big guy that quick should rarely be in a wresting match or flat footed.

 

[Yawkey way]

He went pretty high in the B and F from memory. He will be a loss despite what people think. He's 100% a disappointment but he needs to be replaced to stand still.

He was getting big yards along with sinc when we were playing well and winning games. I’m keeping him unless we get a deal that makes sense for st Kilda not just brad hill.

 

[snails13]

Has St.Kilda actually said they want him gone,or Hill himself saying he is happy to go

 

[St Kilda Death]

Has St.Kilda actually said they want him gone,or Hill himself saying he is happy to go

Rumours hill isn’t happy.
Rumours Clarko wants him.
Seen having coffee together.
No word from saints.

 

[lewdogs]

purple thinks Ryder will play at a 4th club next year?
Interesting since I thought Ryder made the call to retire.

Completely clueless take from Purple

 

[SaintsSeptember]

For semantics' sake, it can either be grim or be realism, but it cannot be both.

It'd be nice if Hill could do that run and carry thing and not run straight into trouble. Sinclair manages it somehow.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not for just giving Hill away. But for me, it's get his entire salary off the books, because he's not merely one of the better paid players at the club, he earns more than any other single player at the club. And he's probably going to finish 8-10 in the B&F despite playing almost every game.

So if we have to take some of his salary, it's a no from me.

But his salary is the priority IMO because it's a lot of money tied up in not nearly enough production.

And I'm not for moving the chess pieces around to find a place for him.

IMO he's not a better HBF than Sinclair or Long, a better wingman than McKenzie, Wood, Long, Billings or NWM, or a better HFF than Butler, Higgins or Long, based on recent performance. Particularly because all of the players I mentioned would be on half of his salary at most.

Imagine what that salary disappearing does in terms of opportunity to add in actual positions of need.

Who will you give his salary to?

We have to meet the Salary cap minimum so the money is always "tied up".
I know its against the grain that someone getting paid a lot is not playing that well, but you don't think about that on match day. Life isn't fair, and Hill got lucky, he's going to get paid that money no matter if he's at North or Saints. I sure as hell don't want to pay him to play for North ( unless they pay in draft picks ).

We have Hannebury, Geary and Paddy off the books.
Hill gone won't make us better.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Completely clueless take from Purple

Purple should retire.

 

[Saint Shags]

Commit to re-signing ratten after a dead cat bounce of a relatively easy fixture and no injuries has us looking way better than we really are at 8-3 mid 2022.

Gee this is some real revisionist stuff.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Rumours hill isn’t happy.
Rumours Clarko wants him.
Seen having coffee together.
No word from saints.

He's not getting paid to be happy.

 

[lewdogs]

Collingwood NEEDED Treloar off their books.
We don't.

Look mate I hope you're right I'd love to get a second rounder for Hill, I'm just reading the tea leaves and thinking we want him gone and I reckon it's a third rounder or worse and they cop the salary. Hopefully it's something better but if we switch him out for Amon on less money that's a gain for mine, the initial outlay is gone unfortunately.

 

[Yawkey way]

Gee this is some real revisionist stuff.

No it’s actually not, plenty were saying just that at the time of his extension.

 

[St Kilda Death]

relatively easy fixture and no injuries has us looking way better than we really are at 8-3 mid 2022.

2. The rest of 2022 shows just how lucky we were to be 8-3,

A relatively easy fixture.
It was easy relative to our post bye draw where we played 7/11 games against teams that are now playing finals.

But the first half wasn’t actually easy considering we had to play the 2 teams who finished on top of the ladder, a 3rd top 4 team and 2 more top 8.
We went 3-2 against those good sides which helped us get to 8-3.

IMO lack of depth got us.
Not enough talls exposed us.
And when Steele and dmac both out we looked soft as butter.

I don’t think we were lucky to be 8-3 considering we had our chances against pies and port.

We were unlucky to be 3-8 in the 2nd half.
Due to hardest draw in the league and injuries to players we couldn’t cover.