List Mgmt. 2023 List Management

[Coona Blues]

Hayward and a first rounder is never going to happen...
Hayward is a best 22 forward for Sydney, who played all 25 games for them last year...

Likelihood, on current output of TDK, is the best we will get is Sydney's first round pick...

Who knows what Sydney's real deal is...
If it's actually 8x years.. Thinking about it (Sydney's list management is one of the best in the business) at a guess it'll be 8x years @ $500-$600k max...

The figures quoted to me included multiple mentions of the numeral 8 in the offer. If true, I struggle to see how we could match and even more so ask why would we? Tom has great potential, but we, as yet have seen only cameos. I have been as big a TDK fan as anyone in the board, but if he is interested in going, it is good luck and maximise the trade. The Swans have a history of targeting big men notably from Plugger through Big Bad Barry and Buddy, it is their go to model and surely this is Buddy’s last year and Reid very much near the end.

The best they can offer on face value is consecutive season’s first rounders at the back end of the first night of the draft “show”. Some avenue to the top 10 of the draft would surely be our aim. Do we insist they concoct a deal to facilitate it or back ourselves to find trading partners.

 

[Kruezing]

Amatuer hour days are over at our club we have very competent people running the place … whatever Tom De Koning

12

Tom De Koning

Age

25

Ht

201cm

Wt

102kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.0

2star

K

3.0

1star

HB

5.0

4star

CL

0.5

2star

HO

1.5

4star

No current season stats available

D

8.0

2star

K

3.0

1star

HB

5.0

4star

CL

0.5

3star

HO

1.5

5star

chooses to do I have full confidence that the best deal for the club will be achieved … especially with Cook and Sayers at the helm …

 

[thylacine60]

^^^^
bang!

 

[branedotorg]

we resigned harry, charlie, cripps and walsh - weitering is also contracted. core objective achieved.

part of overloading on early picks is you hope they all succeed (clearly they haven't) then you trade out the surplus to extend your period of high draft picks beyond the window of low performance and hopefully extend your period at the top.

 

[thylacine60]

we resigned harry, charlie, cripps and walsh - weitering is also contracted. core objective achieved.

part of overloading on early picks is you hope they all succeed (clearly they haven't) then you trade out the surplus to extend your period of high draft picks beyond the window of low performance and hopefully extend your period at the top.

-

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

This is a classic media beat up because there is no other high profile player out of contract at the end of the year.. The cricket and tennis were underwhelming, off season has had few contraversies so now the footy journos and SEN are trying to ensure that their clicks remain high enough by luring in Carlton fans, because they know there are heaps of us and we will always bite.

TDK has rightfully put off contract talks, and so would have Carlton.. We couldn't possibly pay him what he thinks he is worth until we see some real progress in his development as a ruckman and TDK couldnt possibly take the offer that we would be prepared to put in front of him currently because he has enough belief in his ability to know that he can get more after he puts in a good year.. Its the right move by both club and player.. However the other clubs are also going to see what Tom does this year, and if he isnt an established best 22 player no one is paying him more than $500k a season regardless of his 'potential' so i think he ends up staying regardless its just a matter of what he gets paid..

The only outlier here is if he shows real signs of being a capable key forward, if this happens and we have Harry & Charlie it may just be a better move for both player and club that he finds a new home, but I think he will show signs of being a decent ruck that can pinch forward and we will sign him for something well below what the media are throwing out atm.

 

[ferrisb]

2 firsts for TDK? You guys and gals are dreaming!!!

How would you feel if Carlton paid two firsts for a (very promising) young ruck who was yet to really make it? You'd lose your collective sh*t!

The guy is an athletic specimen and has a leap that could inspire poetry books. BUT....

So far all we've seen is (very small) pockets of dominance, a propensity to fly for unrealistic marks and not much forward craft for a guy that is supposed to be the prototype ruck-fwd.

Now, I am NOT saying he is no good. And I get that he is still young-ish and will get better. And that big guys peak later and all that jazz.

But two firsts?!?! That is reserved for proven stars and rolled-gold young prospects.

Throwing 8 years or $750K a year at a player like TDK is absolute list management madness. He MIGHT end up being one of the game's best ruckmen. It's definitely possible. And you know what, IF that happens, he is probably worth that big contract and big $. If not, you've burnt a big hole in your cap on potential.

I know Sydney are pretty damn good at this talent spotting, trading and list management caper, but a word of warning.... At the end of the year, TDK will be one year younger than Grundy was when he signed his monster 7-year contract at Collingwood. At that stage Grundy was a 2 x AA and had finished top 10 in the Brownlow two years in a row. Some Carlton supporters might have even baulked at paying two firsts for Grundy at that point. And I can't imagine TDK being anywhere as proven a prospect at the same age. AND even if TDK ends up as good as Grundy (who was probably the best young ruckman in a decade at that point), look at how that turned out for Collingwood!

TL;DR - We wouldn't pay 2 firsts for TDK. And another club would be mad to pay that. I would love to be wrong on this, but if we get a monster offer for TDK, we should take it.

 

[Bletch]

2 firsts for TDK? You guys and gals are dreaming!!!

How would you feel if Carlton paid two firsts for a (very promising) young ruck who was yet to really make it? You'd lose your collective sh*t!

The guy is an athletic specimen and has a leap that could inspire poetry books. BUT....

So far all we've seen is (very small) pockets of dominance, a propensity to fly for unrealistic marks and not much forward craft for a guy that is supposed to be the prototype ruck-fwd.

Now, I am NOT saying he is no good. And I get that he is still young-ish and will get better. And that big guys peak later and all that jazz.

But two firsts?!?! That is reserved for proven stars and rolled-gold young prospects.

Throwing 8 years or $750K a year at a player like TDK is absolute list management madness. He MIGHT end up being one of the game's best ruckmen. It's definitely possible. And you know what, IF that happens, he is probably worth that big contract and big $. If not, you've burnt a big hole in your cap on potential.

I know Sydney are pretty damn good at this talent spotting, trading and list management caper, but a word of warning.... At the end of the year, TDK will be one year younger than Grundy was when he signed his monster 7-year contract at Collingwood. At that stage Grundy was a 2 x AA and had finished top 10 in the Brownlow two years in a row. Some Carlton supporters might have even baulked at paying two firsts for Grundy at that point. And I can't imagine TDK being anywhere as proven a prospect at the same age. AND even if TDK ends up as good as Grundy (who was probably the best young ruckman in a decade at that point), look at how that turned out for Collingwood!

TL;DR - We wouldn't pay 2 firsts for TDK. And another club would be mad to pay that. I would love to be wrong on this, but if we get a monster offer for TDK, we should take it.

It's not that he's worth 2 firsts (at the moment). It's that Sydney think he's worth a $6m+ contract. If they value him that highly, then they would have to be prepared to pay a premium for him in trade. And given Sydney are likely finalists, they're unlikely to be able to walk him through the draft - too many teams below them are also interested. He's not a free agent. They want him. They'll have to pay above market rates. Two picks in the 10-18 range is not unreasonable in these circumstances. Or a pick and a decent player. Or negotiate to find a top-10 pick (will be hard this year, those with them are likely going to want to keep them).

 

[Sector 7G]

2 firsts for TDK? You guys and gals are dreaming!!!

How would you feel if Carlton paid two firsts for a (very promising) young ruck who was yet to really make it? You'd lose your collective sh*t!

The guy is an athletic specimen and has a leap that could inspire poetry books. BUT....

So far all we've seen is (very small) pockets of dominance, a propensity to fly for unrealistic marks and not much forward craft for a guy that is supposed to be the prototype ruck-fwd.

Now, I am NOT saying he is no good. And I get that he is still young-ish and will get better. And that big guys peak later and all that jazz.

But two firsts?!?! That is reserved for proven stars and rolled-gold young prospects.

Throwing 8 years or $750K a year at a player like TDK is absolute list management madness. He MIGHT end up being one of the game's best ruckmen. It's definitely possible. And you know what, IF that happens, he is probably worth that big contract and big $. If not, you've burnt a big hole in your cap on potential.

I know Sydney are pretty damn good at this talent spotting, trading and list management caper, but a word of warning.... At the end of the year, TDK will be one year younger than Grundy was when he signed his monster 7-year contract at Collingwood. At that stage Grundy was a 2 x AA and had finished top 10 in the Brownlow two years in a row. Some Carlton supporters might have even baulked at paying two firsts for Grundy at that point. And I can't imagine TDK being anywhere as proven a prospect at the same age. AND even if TDK ends up as good as Grundy (who was probably the best young ruckman in a decade at that point), look at how that turned out for Collingwood!

TL;DR - We wouldn't pay 2 firsts for TDK. And another club would be mad to pay that. I would love to be wrong on this, but if we get a monster offer for TDK, we should take it.

Fringe rucks go for a pick in the 30s. TDK would need to play consistently like he did against the Swans, his only truly very good game, to get us a 1st round pick and for teams to offer him big money.

 

[Jeremias]

Fringe rucks go for a pick in the 30s. TDK would need to play consistently like he did against the Swans, his only truly very good game, to get us a 1st round pick and for teams to offer him big money.

TDK is not a fringe ruck. He played 19 senior games last year and many expect him to play every game this year if fit.

Fringe rucks aren't offered 6+ year deals regardless of the money on offer.

Tough to place an exact value on him currently, but suggest we look at the Rhys Stanley trade as a starting point, which involved a 1st round pick.

 

[Stamos]

 

[skadoosh]

TDK is not a fringe ruck. He played 19 senior games last year and many expect him to play every game this year if fit.

Fringe rucks aren't offered 6+ year deals regardless of the money on offer.

Tough to place an exact value on him currently, but suggest we look at the Rhys Stanley trade as a starting point, which involved a 1st round pick.

He's definitely not a fringe ruck. I'd put him in the 'unfulfilled potential with improvements in consistency required' basket

 

[Sector 7G]

TDK is not a fringe ruck. He played 19 senior games last year and many expect him to play every game this year if fit.

Fringe rucks aren't offered 6+ year deals regardless of the money on offer.

Tough to place an exact value on him currently, but suggest we look at the Rhys Stanley trade as a starting point, which involved a 1st round pick.

TDK only played that many games because Pitt was injured. Didn't play the last 2. He is currently being massively over hyped because he takes the odd hanger

Edit - Maybe a recent comparable is Ladhams who has TDK covered statistically at the same age who went for a 4 pick upgrade from 16 -12 and a future 3rd rounder

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Ruckman do not provide enough of an impact on high level football to warrant salaries in excess of 500-600k. Give me a Darcy Cameron

14

Darcy Cameron

Age

29

Ht

204cm

Wt

103kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

6.0

1star

K

3.3

1star

HB

2.7

2star

CL

0.3

2star

HO

5.3

5star

D

7.5

2star

K

4.5

2star

HB

3.0

2star

CL

0.5

3star

HO

3.5

5star

D

6.0

2star

K

3.3

2star

HB

2.7

3star

CL

0.3

2star

HO

5.3

5star

on 400k over a Grundy on a million. TDK has promise but i'm not going to lose sleep on whether he stays or goes as I would if it was Walsh, Charlie, Harry, Weiters, Cripps, Cerra, etc etc. Take the first rounder and something extra and move on if TDK doesn't want to be here (not saying that he doesnt and seems like he's keen to earn a spot, but if it comes to it).

 

[katmanblue]

If the swans are interested in tdk and prepared to offer him a long term deal then they must be confident they can help him improve to around near his full potential. And we all know the potential tdk has. He could become a superstar of the comp.

Certainly has the athleticism so if he can improve his marking/kicking he will be a real weapon up front.

He can jump too so with a bit of work he can become a very good ruckman too.

It's interesting. Sometimes he's so assured and others he seems like a new born giraffe.

On SM-F926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[katmanblue]

2 firsts for TDK? You guys and gals are dreaming!!!

How would you feel if Carlton paid two firsts for a (very promising) young ruck who was yet to really make it? You'd lose your collective sh*t!

The guy is an athletic specimen and has a leap that could inspire poetry books. BUT....

So far all we've seen is (very small) pockets of dominance, a propensity to fly for unrealistic marks and not much forward craft for a guy that is supposed to be the prototype ruck-fwd.

Now, I am NOT saying he is no good. And I get that he is still young-ish and will get better. And that big guys peak later and all that jazz.

But two firsts?!?! That is reserved for proven stars and rolled-gold young prospects.

Throwing 8 years or $750K a year at a player like TDK is absolute list management madness. He MIGHT end up being one of the game's best ruckmen. It's definitely possible. And you know what, IF that happens, he is probably worth that big contract and big $. If not, you've burnt a big hole in your cap on potential.

I know Sydney are pretty damn good at this talent spotting, trading and list management caper, but a word of warning.... At the end of the year, TDK will be one year younger than Grundy was when he signed his monster 7-year contract at Collingwood. At that stage Grundy was a 2 x AA and had finished top 10 in the Brownlow two years in a row. Some Carlton supporters might have even baulked at paying two firsts for Grundy at that point. And I can't imagine TDK being anywhere as proven a prospect at the same age. AND even if TDK ends up as good as Grundy (who was probably the best young ruckman in a decade at that point), look at how that turned out for Collingwood!

TL;DR - We wouldn't pay 2 firsts for TDK. And another club would be mad to pay that. I would love to be wrong on this, but if we get a monster offer for TDK, we should take it.

What if it starts at $650k and gets to $850k at the end of the 8 years?

Got to take into account at least two substantial increases in cap space over 8 years.

On SM-F926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[CJMB]

Ruckman do not provide enough of an impact on high level football to warrant salaries in excess of 500-600k. Give me a Darcy Cameron

14

Darcy Cameron

Age

29

Ht

204cm

Wt

103kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

6.0

1star

K

3.3

1star

HB

2.7

2star

CL

0.3

2star

HO

5.3

5star

D

7.5

2star

K

4.5

2star

HB

3.0

2star

CL

0.5

3star

HO

3.5

5star

D

6.0

2star

K

3.3

2star

HB

2.7

3star

CL

0.3

2star

HO

5.3

5star

on 400k over a Grundy on a million. TDK has promise but i'm not going to lose sleep on whether he stays or goes as I would if it was Walsh, Charlie, Harry, Weiters, Cripps, Cerra, etc etc. Take the first rounder and something extra and move on if TDK doesn't want to be here (not saying that he doesnt and seems like he's keen to earn a spot, but if it comes to it).

Looks like Cameron is playing more of the 2nd ruck role behind Cox this year.

If you disregard that his name comes up a lot in SuperCoach chat, he’s a pretty bloody average ruckman.

For all the talk of how much improvement TDK needs, last year he averaged 17.2 hitouts with 36.2% to advantage while Cameron was 17.6 and 27.4%.

Food for thought.

 

[Sector 7G]

Looks like Cameron is playing more of the 2nd ruck role behind Cox this year.

If you disregard that his name comes up a lot in SuperCoach chat, he’s a pretty bloody average ruckman.

For all the talk of how much improvement TDK needs, last year he averaged 17.2 hitouts with 36.2% to advantage while Cameron was 17.6 and 27.4%.

Food for thought.

Cameron is coming back from an injury. I think it is likely that McStay will 2nd ruck and Cox won't be in the side.

 

[TENACIOUS]

2 firsts for TDK? You guys and gals are dreaming!!!

How would you feel if Carlton paid two firsts for a (very promising) young ruck who was yet to really make it? You'd lose your collective sh*t!

The guy is an athletic specimen and has a leap that could inspire poetry books. BUT....

So far all we've seen is (very small) pockets of dominance, a propensity to fly for unrealistic marks and not much forward craft for a guy that is supposed to be the prototype ruck-fwd.

Now, I am NOT saying he is no good. And I get that he is still young-ish and will get better. And that big guys peak later and all that jazz.

But two firsts?!?! That is reserved for proven stars and rolled-gold young prospects.

Throwing 8 years or $750K a year at a player like TDK is absolute list management madness. He MIGHT end up being one of the game's best ruckmen. It's definitely possible. And you know what, IF that happens, he is probably worth that big contract and big $. If not, you've burnt a big hole in your cap on potential.

I know Sydney are pretty damn good at this talent spotting, trading and list management caper, but a word of warning.... At the end of the year, TDK will be one year younger than Grundy was when he signed his monster 7-year contract at Collingwood. At that stage Grundy was a 2 x AA and had finished top 10 in the Brownlow two years in a row. Some Carlton supporters might have even baulked at paying two firsts for Grundy at that point. And I can't imagine TDK being anywhere as proven a prospect at the same age. AND even if TDK ends up as good as Grundy (who was probably the best young ruckman in a decade at that point), look at how that turned out for Collingwood!

TL;DR - We wouldn't pay 2 firsts for TDK. And another club would be mad to pay that. I would love to be wrong on this, but if we get a monster offer for TDK, we should take it.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Ruckman do not provide enough of an impact on high level football to warrant salaries in excess of 500-600k. Give me a Darcy Cameron on 400k over a Grundy on a million. TDK has promise but i'm not going to lose sleep on whether he stays or goes as I would if it was Walsh, Charlie, Harry, Weiters, Cripps, Cerra, etc etc. Take the first rounder and something extra and move on if TDK doesn't want to be here (not saying that he doesnt and seems like he's keen to earn a spot, but if it comes to it).

Rubbish.. if we had a competent ruck in 2022 we play finals, fact.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Looks like Cameron is playing more of the 2nd ruck role behind Cox this year.

If you disregard that his name comes up a lot in SuperCoach chat, he’s a pretty bloody average ruckman.

For all the talk of how much improvement TDK needs, last year he averaged 17.2 hitouts with 36.2% to advantage while Cameron was 17.6 and 27.4%.

Food for thought.

And Cameron is on peanuts..

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Rubbish.. if we had a competent ruck in 2022 we play finals, fact.

Yeah nah, disagree.

 

[Robertio]

2 firsts for TDK? You guys and gals are dreaming!!!

How would you feel if Carlton paid two firsts for a (very promising) young ruck who was yet to really make it? You'd lose your collective sh*t!

The guy is an athletic specimen and has a leap that could inspire poetry books. BUT....

So far all we've seen is (very small) pockets of dominance, a propensity to fly for unrealistic marks and not much forward craft for a guy that is supposed to be the prototype ruck-fwd.

Now, I am NOT saying he is no good. And I get that he is still young-ish and will get better. And that big guys peak later and all that jazz.

But two firsts?!?! That is reserved for proven stars and rolled-gold young prospects.

Throwing 8 years or $750K a year at a player like TDK is absolute list management madness. He MIGHT end up being one of the game's best ruckmen. It's definitely possible. And you know what, IF that happens, he is probably worth that big contract and big $. If not, you've burnt a big hole in your cap on potential.

I know Sydney are pretty damn good at this talent spotting, trading and list management caper, but a word of warning.... At the end of the year, TDK will be one year younger than Grundy was when he signed his monster 7-year contract at Collingwood. At that stage Grundy was a 2 x AA and had finished top 10 in the Brownlow two years in a row. Some Carlton supporters might have even baulked at paying two firsts for Grundy at that point. And I can't imagine TDK being anywhere as proven a prospect at the same age. AND even if TDK ends up as good as Grundy (who was probably the best young ruckman in a decade at that point), look at how that turned out for Collingwood!

TL;DR - We wouldn't pay 2 firsts for TDK. And another club would be mad to pay that. I would love to be wrong on this, but if we get a monster offer for TDK, we should take it.

Two firsts or GTFO.

 

[macky99]

This is a classic media beat up because there is no other high profile player out of contract at the end of the year.. The cricket and tennis were underwhelming, off season has had few contraversies so now the footy journos and SEN are trying to ensure that their clicks remain high enough by luring in Carlton fans, because they know there are heaps of us and we will always bite.

TDK has rightfully put off contract talks, and so would have Carlton.. We couldn't possibly pay him what he thinks he is worth until we see some real progress in his development as a ruckman and TDK couldnt possibly take the offer that we would be prepared to put in front of him currently because he has enough belief in his ability to know that he can get more after he puts in a good year.. Its the right move by both club and player.. However the other clubs are also going to see what Tom does this year, and if he isnt an established best 22 player no one is paying him more than $500k a season regardless of his 'potential' so i think he ends up staying regardless its just a matter of what he gets paid..

The only outlier here is if he shows real signs of being a capable key forward, if this happens and we have Harry & Charlie it may just be a better move for both player and club that he finds a new home, but I think he will show signs of being a decent ruck that can pinch forward and we will sign him for something well below what the media are throwing out atm.

Agree totally there is absolutely no substance to this other than some media person, putting out a story on a slow news day, if TDK has some motivation to leave it will be to Geelong for a lifestyle choice, if he has a good season at Carlton feel certain he will be well compensated at Carlton which is the most likely outcome.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

2 firsts for TDK? You guys and gals are dreaming!!!

How would you feel if Carlton paid two firsts for a (very promising) young ruck who was yet to really make it? You'd lose your collective sh*t!

The guy is an athletic specimen and has a leap that could inspire poetry books. BUT....

So far all we've seen is (very small) pockets of dominance, a propensity to fly for unrealistic marks and not much forward craft for a guy that is supposed to be the prototype ruck-fwd.

Now, I am NOT saying he is no good. And I get that he is still young-ish and will get better. And that big guys peak later and all that jazz.

But two firsts?!?! That is reserved for proven stars and rolled-gold young prospects.

Throwing 8 years or $750K a year at a player like TDK is absolute list management madness. He MIGHT end up being one of the game's best ruckmen. It's definitely possible. And you know what, IF that happens, he is probably worth that big contract and big $. If not, you've burnt a big hole in your cap on potential.

I know Sydney are pretty damn good at this talent spotting, trading and list management caper, but a word of warning.... At the end of the year, TDK will be one year younger than Grundy was when he signed his monster 7-year contract at Collingwood. At that stage Grundy was a 2 x AA and had finished top 10 in the Brownlow two years in a row. Some Carlton supporters might have even baulked at paying two firsts for Grundy at that point. And I can't imagine TDK being anywhere as proven a prospect at the same age. AND even if TDK ends up as good as Grundy (who was probably the best young ruckman in a decade at that point), look at how that turned out for Collingwood!

TL;DR - We wouldn't pay 2 firsts for TDK. And another club would be mad to pay that. I would love to be wrong on this, but if we get a monster offer for TDK, we should take it.

The media valuation of TDK suggests 2 first rounders. Saw one this morning saying he could get 1 million a year which is ludicrous. I think it was Gerard Healy and he said we need to do whatever it takes to keep him. I for one would be pretty pissed off if we entertained a figure like that. I'd happily take a top 10 pick, and celebrate the cap relief and a tidy profit on the Pick 30 we got him for.

His marking is impressive and his potential is great. We are beyond paying top dollar for potential now. Results or GTFO. If he turns into Max Gawn this year, then let's go. Beyond that, let go.