List Mgmt. 2024 List Mismanagement and Trading

[Sanders]

I wonder how much of that is our fault though, versus circumstances of the rebuild

For example:

- Darcy Fogarty is on 89 games, but only played 14 games across his 2nd and 3rd seasons. If he had played 20 more senior games in that time, he'd be a 109 game player

- Chayce Jones is on 86 games. Most first round draft picks from the 2018 draft taken around Jones level are 100+ game players. Either we didn't draft the highest quality player available to us, or we did but didn't play them enough / develop them well enough

- We drafted Jordan Gallucci back in 2016, which was a clear bust. That first round pick, if it was English or Berry or Hayward or whoever, should be on 100-150 games already.

- If we had taken someone like Serong instead of McAsey in 2019, that player would be reaching 100 games this year. Serong is currently on 89, as are players taken around him (Pickett has played 92 games)

- We traded Lever out (a now 150 game player) then blew that compensation on Gibbs who is now gone. Just one of those picks from either 2017 or 2018 could have been a 100 game player by now.

- Josh Worrell, currently on 26 games, could have been at least a 50 game player by now simply through picking him earlier. Several other examples of players that could have played 50 games by now on our list (Pedlar for example)

So those decisions, which were the club's decisions and not pure circumstance, have left us lacking at least five 100 game players.

Maybe throw in really nailing one or two additional late/rookie picks (Liam Baker instead of Patrick Wilson, Tom Papley instead of Paul Hunter, both instances of the 100 gamer being taken one pick after us in the rookie draft) and we'd have a much better list profile

Or in simple terms we’ve failed to develop guys to replace the senior players we let go

For whatever reason, those gaps remain unfilled

 

[Sanders]

It’s the 2013/14 draft sanctions. Still haunting us.

Those 4/5 players (ie 2 first rounders, 2 seconds plus Tippett compo would all be 27 or 28 now.

Still haunting us

Nonsense

That’s 10 years ago, and those drafts sucked anyway

 

[Sanders]

Correct. 5th youngest team still in the AFL, 3rd lowest in terms of games played. Keep in mind that statistic is inclusive of Sloane for age and games played, as well as Milera who's on the LTI.

That’s the accusation not a defence

No one’s coming through

 

[Mutineer]

Nonsense

That’s 10 years ago, and those drafts sucked anyway

Really? 2013/14?
Multiple Brownlow medalists and a swag off AA's

2013 AFL National Draft

AFL draft history and statistics. Includes national, pre-season and rookie draft picks as well as past pre-draft and midyear selections.

www.footywire.com

2014 AFL National Draft

AFL draft history and statistics. Includes national, pre-season and rookie draft picks as well as past pre-draft and midyear selections.

www.footywire.com

 

[Sanders]

Really? 2013/14?
Multiple Brownlow medalists and a swag off AA's

2013 AFL National Draft

AFL draft history and statistics. Includes national, pre-season and rookie draft picks as well as past pre-draft and midyear selections.

www.footywire.com

2014 AFL National Draft

AFL draft history and statistics. Includes national, pre-season and rookie draft picks as well as past pre-draft and midyear selections.

www.footywire.com

That’s right. 2013 sucks and so does 2014

 

[CryptoCrow]

I wonder how much of that is our fault though, versus circumstances of the rebuild

For example:

- Darcy Fogarty is on 89 games, but only played 14 games across his 2nd and 3rd seasons. If he had played 20 more senior games in that time, he'd be a 109 game player

- Chayce Jones is on 86 games. Most first round draft picks from the 2018 draft taken around Jones level are 100+ game players. Either we didn't draft the highest quality player available to us, or we did but didn't play them enough / develop them well enough

- We drafted Jordan Gallucci back in 2016, which was a clear bust. That first round pick, if it was English or Berry or Hayward or whoever, should be on 100-150 games already.

- If we had taken someone like Serong instead of McAsey in 2019, that player would be reaching 100 games this year. Serong is currently on 89, as are players taken around him (Pickett has played 92 games)

- We traded Lever out (a now 150 game player) then blew that compensation on Gibbs who is now gone. Just one of those picks from either 2017 or 2018 could have been a 100 game player by now.

- Josh Worrell, currently on 26 games, could have been at least a 50 game player by now simply through picking him earlier. Several other examples of players that could have played 50 games by now on our list (Pedlar for example)

So those decisions, which were the club's decisions and not pure circumstance, have left us lacking at least five 100 game players.

Maybe throw in really nailing one or two additional late/rookie picks (Liam Baker instead of Patrick Wilson, Tom Papley instead of Paul Hunter, both instances of the 100 gamer being taken one pick after us in the rookie draft) and we'd have a much better list profile

 

[adelaidecrows]

I wonder how much of that is our fault though, versus circumstances of the rebuild

For example:

- Darcy Fogarty is on 89 games, but only played 14 games across his 2nd and 3rd seasons. If he had played 20 more senior games in that time, he'd be a 109 game player

- Chayce Jones is on 86 games. Most first round draft picks from the 2018 draft taken around Jones level are 100+ game players. Either we didn't draft the highest quality player available to us, or we did but didn't play them enough / develop them well enough

- We drafted Jordan Gallucci back in 2016, which was a clear bust. That first round pick, if it was English or Berry or Hayward or whoever, should be on 100-150 games already.

- If we had taken someone like Serong instead of McAsey in 2019, that player would be reaching 100 games this year. Serong is currently on 89, as are players taken around him (Pickett has played 92 games)

- We traded Lever out (a now 150 game player) then blew that compensation on Gibbs who is now gone. Just one of those picks from either 2017 or 2018 could have been a 100 game player by now.

- Josh Worrell, currently on 26 games, could have been at least a 50 game player by now simply through picking him earlier. Several other examples of players that could have played 50 games by now on our list (Pedlar for example)

So those decisions, which were the club's decisions and not pure circumstance, have left us lacking at least five 100 game players.

Maybe throw in really nailing one or two additional late/rookie picks (Liam Baker instead of Patrick Wilson, Tom Papley instead of Paul Hunter, both instances of the 100 gamer being taken one pick after us in the rookie draft) and we'd have a much better list profile

Absolutely.

We have put a lot of games into low ceiling players but the players we really need to come in and develop at AFL level we have really dropped the ball by not pumping games into those players. I get new draftees spending time in the reserves, but players into their second year should start finding opportunities. We dont seem to give them. Or we do, then we banish them for 12 months back to the Sanfl.

 

[skittlebrew]

Yeah no players from the 2013 and 2014 drafts would have made our team better nor having drafted any have any positive flow on affects to this day...

I miss the days when people would put a effort into trolling, you know dress it a up a little. Everyone's going the straight Kane Cornes these days.

 

[TRP1996]

Wasn’t it the 2012 and 2013 drafts we had our picks stripped?

In any, in writing off those drafts I think you’re all underestimating the impact The Rat King had on the Adelaide Football Club.

 

[Mutineer]

Wasn’t it the 2012 and 2013 drafts we had our picks stripped?

In any, in writing off those drafts I think you’re all underestimating the impact The Rat King had on the Adelaide Football Club.

Kurt Tippett played for Adelaide in 2012, Swans 2013 onwards.

2012 trade controversy[edit]​

On 6 October 2012, it was announced Tippett had requested a trade to the Sydney Swans. Criticism was later heard from many people, two of which were Crows legend Mark Ricciuto, who said that Tippett was a money driver and former Hawthorn president Jeff Kennett who angrily said the Swans should be stripped of money on trying to get him.

Although things shifted, when it was revealed Tippett and Adelaide had breached AFL rules regarding his contract. Tippett was offered money not stipulated under the club's salary cap. As a result, the club was fined and lost its first two draft picks in the 2012 and 2013 national drafts, while Tippett was fined and suspended for eleven matches. The proposed trade to Sydney was blocked by the AFL, with Sydney eventually picking him up in the pre-season draft, while Adelaide lost Tippett for nothing.

 

[NTRabbit]

It was 2012 and 2013, 2014 was when we took Lever.

The only player of note taken after our surrendered pick 20 was Jack Viney

7

Jack Viney

Age

30

Ht

179cm

Wt

93kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

22.1

5star

K

9.4

4star

HB

12.6

5star

M

2.8

3star

T

5.7

5star

CL

5.0

5star

D

21.8

5star

K

10.3

4star

HB

11.5

5star

M

2.5

3star

T

4.5

5star

CL

5.0

5star

D

13.4

4star

K

8.6

4star

HB

4.8

4star

M

2.6

3star

T

3.4

5star

CL

3.6

5star

, essentially ancient history at this point

 

[Pea Nut]

It was 2012 and 2013, 2014 was when we took Lever.

The only player of note taken after our surrendered pick 20 was Jack Viney, essentially ancient history at this point

And a father son selection, so even less relevant.

 

[huludicidal]

Yes but we want to get in a pick before Welsh. If he was a top 5 pick, that's very unlikely to happen.

We should look to do everything we can and more to move up the board to:

a) make sure there's no 'tactical bids' on Welsh just before our pick. If we have a top 5-6 pick, that's a lot less likely to happen.

b) get Draper, the kid is a jet. People who are describing him as an accumulator...yes, he is. He gets a lot of the ball but also has elite speed to break from the contest, has good disposal, kicks long running goals and lifts in big moments. The more he accumulates, the better. Exactly the inside/outside midfielder we need. Hopefully he doesn't have another blinder of a carnival otherwise he could go top 3.

If Port aggressively trade up to get him a la Rozee, I'm having a massive tanty.

If there’s a bid on Welsh before pick 12 I’ll eat my hat. Tactics or no tactics, he’s nowhere near the top 10 in this draft pool at this point, and history shows that father-sons drop further than expected more often than not. Max was a rare exception to this rule.

I’d say Welsh falling outside the top 25 is more far more likely than a bid before pick 10.

Most likely landing spot: right around that Max range (15-20). The only way that changes if he starts kicking bags of 4-5 goals in the SANFL, which I suppose isn’t impossible, but yeah, Mick Godden. Lol.


As for Draper, personally I would rather any of Jagga Smith, Josh Smillie or Finn O’Sullivan for our list than Sid. Sid I would have on par with Christian Moraes, with Moraes firming as a slightly better list fit for mine. Not saying Sid is a poor option by any stretch, but he’s absolutely not going inside the top 5 at this stage, and might fall to around 9-12, especially if there are any flight risk concerns from the VIC clubs.

I agree that moving up to a top 5 pick (if we even need to move up because we’re still a genuine chance of finishing in the bottom 5 at this stage) would be nice for us in order to guarantee a top line mid, but I’d be pulling the trigger on Jagga there rather than Sid without even needing to think twice. Smillie looks a lock to go pick 1 and I just don’t think we’ll ever see a club trade pick 1 - there’s too much fear surrounding the consequences, plus he’s the only type of mid North don’t already have. O’Sullivan is by far the most likely to go at pick 2 and he’s a great fit at Richmond - they aren’t trading that pick in a million years. An Ashcroft bid comes somewhere in the top 6 to push everyone down a spot. The rest is up for debate and some teams will be prioritising talls over mids.

Port have absolutely no way of trading up above where our first pick will fall to take Draper or any other player for that matter, without giving up a superstar. Nobody will value Port’s 2025 first rounder at better than pick 18-20 value in the 2024 draft, and Port’s first 2024 pick is in the mid 30s (their own second rounder). Even combining their best picks in 2024 and 2025 would get them maybe to pick 14-15 at best in a trade. They have nobody of value that they’ll be looking to offload in a trade either. Port will be active in the free agent market and look likely to land Perryman, but other than that it’s probably a quiet offseason coming for them. Much quieter than ours needs to be.

 

[AFC979810]

- Darcy Fogarty is on 89 games, but only played 14 games across his 2nd and 3rd seasons. If he had played 20 more senior games in that time, he'd be a 109 game player

- Chayce Jones is on 86 games. Most first round draft picks from the 2018 draft taken around Jones level are 100+ game players. Either we didn't draft the highest quality player available to us, or we did but didn't play them enough / develop them well enough

What terrible examples! Yeah - Chayce Jones would be a Brownlow medallist with 14 extra games of experience. Good lord.

 

[Scorpus]

What terrible examples! Yeah - Chayce Jones would be a Brownlow medallist with 14 extra games of experience. Good lord.

Looks like you completely missed the point

 

[AFC979810]

Looks like you completely missed the point

Yup... I am sure thats exactly what happened.

Things would be so different if Fog was on 109 games and Jones was on 106 games rather than 89 and 86....

 

[Scorpus]

Yup... I am sure thats exactly what happened.

Things would be so different if Fog was on 109 games and Jones was on 106 games rather than 89 and 86....

So you did miss the point

Vader was discussing our lack of 100 game players as part of what happens in a rebuild, relative to the better teams who have more 100 gamers

I simply pointed out that our poor decisions led to that, either through drafting the wrong players or not playing them as often as other teams did for players taken at the same time, or some combination of both.

If we had picked a better player than Jones that deserved 100 games to this point, or developed him better so he deserved 100 games, then yeah maybe things would be different.

Instead the club's choices led to us lacking 100 gamers relative to other clubs

 

[Captain Furious]

If there’s a bid on Welsh before pick 12 I’ll eat my hat. Tactics or no tactics, he’s nowhere near the top 10 in this draft pool at this point, and history shows that father-sons drop further than expected more often than not. Max was a rare exception to this rule.

I’d say Welsh falling outside the top 25 is more far more likely than a bid before pick 10.

Most likely landing spot: right around that Max range (15-20). The only way that changes if he starts kicking bags of 4-5 goals in the SANFL, which I suppose isn’t impossible, but yeah, Mick Godden. Lol.


As for Draper, personally I would rather any of Jagga Smith, Josh Smillie or Finn O’Sullivan for our list than Sid. Sid I would have on par with Christian Moraes, with Moraes firming as a slightly better list fit for mine. Not saying Sid is a poor option by any stretch, but he’s absolutely not going inside the top 5 at this stage, and might fall to around 9-12, especially if there are any flight risk concerns from the VIC clubs.

I agree that moving up to a top 5 pick (if we even need to move up because we’re still a genuine chance of finishing in the bottom 5 at this stage) would be nice for us in order to guarantee a top line mid, but I’d be pulling the trigger on Jagga there rather than Sid without even needing to think twice. Smillie looks a lock to go pick 1 and I just don’t think we’ll ever see a club trade pick 1 - there’s too much fear surrounding the consequences, plus he’s the only type of mid North don’t already have. O’Sullivan is by far the most likely to go at pick 2 and he’s a great fit at Richmond - they aren’t trading that pick in a million years. An Ashcroft bid comes somewhere in the top 6 to push everyone down a spot. The rest is up for debate and some teams will be prioritising talls over mids.

Port have absolutely no way of trading up above where our first pick will fall to take Draper or any other player for that matter, without giving up a superstar. Nobody will value Port’s 2025 first rounder at better than pick 18-20 value in the 2024 draft, and Port’s first 2024 pick is in the mid 30s (their own second rounder). Even combining their best picks in 2024 and 2025 would get them maybe to pick 14-15 at best in a trade. They have nobody of value that they’ll be looking to offload in a trade either. Port will be active in the free agent market and look likely to land Perryman, but other than that it’s probably a quiet offseason coming for them. Much quieter than ours needs to be.

Lot of definitive statements there considering we're pre championships in an open pool and how much things have changed in the past 8 weeks. But we'll see.

 

[adelaidecrows]

If there’s a bid on Welsh before pick 12 I’ll eat my hat. Tactics or no tactics, he’s nowhere near the top 10 in this draft pool at this point, and history shows that father-sons drop further than expected more often than not. Max was a rare exception to this rule.

I’d say Welsh falling outside the top 25 is more far more likely than a bid before pick 10.

Playing against men will give him a higher rating than NAB u18s. 8 Sanfl possessions would easily be 20+ in the u18s. I think he will easily be top 10. It just depends on the bid.

 

[Captain Furious]

I just don’t think we’ll ever see a club trade pick 1 - there’s too much fear surrounding the consequences, plus he’s the only type of mid North don’t already have.

North did exactly that 18 months ago.

 

[Rags_118]

Yeah no players from the 2013 and 2014 drafts would have made our team better nor having drafted any have any positive flow on affects to this day...

I miss the days when people would put an effort into trolling, you know dress it a up a little. Everyone's going the straight Kane Cornes these days.

That’s a fair observation for the 2012 draft, but there was genuine talent available at where our picks would have been in 2013 draft.

Notionally we would have had picks 8 and 26 in 2013. Used wisely 8 could have been Christian Salem, Dom Sheed or Patrick Cripps.

Maybe 26 could have been Zach Merrett, but we have probably picked Sean Lemmens or Trent Dumont. Others possibilities were George Hewitt, Toby Nankervis and Alex Pearce.

 

[huludicidal]

North did exactly that 18 months ago.

Look that’s true and I missed the word “again” in my post, but I strongly doubt we’ll see ANOTHER situation where the club with pick 1 is having their best young player walk out the door, and is in a position to receive picks 2, 3 AND a future first for that young player plus pick 1 in a multi club deal, while the team receiving pick 1 is picking a player that the team trading away pick 1 didn’t want anyway. Was a pretty weird set of circumstances.

Fast forward to say 2040 and I don’t think a team has traded away pick 1 again, put it that way. Most years have a consensus top pick which makes it even more difficult to do again.

 

[adelaidecrows]

So you did miss the point

Vader was discussing our lack of 100 game players as part of what happens in a rebuild, relative to the better teams who have more 100 gamers

I simply pointed out that our poor decisions led to that, either through drafting the wrong players or not playing them as often as other teams did for players taken at the same time, or some combination of both.

If we had picked a better player than Jones that deserved 100 games to this point, or developed him better so he deserved 100 games, then yeah maybe things would be different.

Instead the club's choices led to us lacking 100 gamers relative to other clubs

I think 100 games isn't the be all and end all. Sheedy had the philosophy of 50 games. I do think Nicks has a habit of playing some younger players for a few games and then banishing them to extended periods of time in the sanfl. Gollant, Worrell, Berry, Fogarty, Thilthorpe and even Crouch just to name a few all seemed to be sent back for long periods. So yeah, these inconsistent run of AFL games really does hurt development. Its one thing to say they have to work on things but its quite another to simply keep them in the sanfl for extended periods of time.

 

[Captain Furious]

Look that’s true and I missed the word “again” in my post, but I strongly doubt we’ll see ANOTHER situation where the club with pick 1 is having their best young player walk out the door, and is in a position to receive picks 2, 3 AND a future first for that young player plus pick 1 in a multi club deal, while the team receiving pick 1 is picking a player that the team trading away pick 1 didn’t want anyway. Was a pretty weird set of circumstances.

Fast forward to say 2040 and I don’t think a team has traded away pick 1 again, put it that way. Most years have a consensus top pick which makes it even more difficult to do again.

Not sure about that; it's just happened in 2022 and was apparently very close to happening again last year with WC. I can absolutely see a scenario again this year where GC offers North (assuming they stay bottom) 3 x 1st round picks for their 1 - given how much talent they have already have, 1 difference maker rather than 3 more later 1st rounders. Conversely North has so many talent gaps, the 3 x 1st round picks may be very attractive.

And then there's the countless variable scenarios that will come up in the future including extending future trading.

 

[Sanders]

That’s a fair observation for the 2012 draft, but there was genuine talent available at where our picks would have been in 2013 draft.

Notionally we would have had picks 8 and 26 in 2013. Used wisely 8 could have been Christian Salem, Dom Sheed or Patrick Cripps.

Maybe 26 could have been Zach Merrett, but we have probably picked Sean Lemmens or Trent Dumont. Others possibilities were George Hewitt, Toby Nankervis and Alex Pearce.

Pick 8 to say pick 20 there is 1 difference maker. The level of poo is high

From 20-40 we got one of the few decent players

We’d have needed a crystal ball to navigate that shit show