List Mgmt. 2024 Trade Thread - No.1

[gringo2011]

I’ve just given you 2019,2022 and a comparison of 2023 v 2024 For Marshall.

There is a very clear jump in output and it coincides with Lyon.

Similar increases for Wilkie. Wood and Battle.

Nas has doubled his output. Owens a very clear jump aswell.

Sincs very much on par with his 2022.

The one who has gone backwards… Steele.

He'd played 13 games before 2019. He absolutely broke out in his third season (2019). He shared the ruck with Ryder before Lyon came in. His numbers jumped back up as soon as he was first ruck again. 2021 he played 13 games due to injury. His averages between 2019 and now aren't that much better and actually getting less hit outs.

I would say he's been very consistent if anything. He came second in the best and fairest in 2019 and most of the fans were disgusted that Seb Ross won it over him suggesting that he was our best player that year.

 

[gringo2011]

I’ve just given you 2019,2022 and a comparison of 2023 v 2024 For Marshall.

There is a very clear jump in output and it coincides with Lyon.

Similar increases for Wilkie. Wood and Battle.

Nas has doubled his output. Owens a very clear jump aswell.

Sincs very much on par with his 2022.

The one who has gone backwards… Steele.

You really can't claim kids that were unexposed either. Nas has got better through games but don't believe it's anything the coaching has done for him. Owens has been a disappointment this season and hasn't progressed and if anything looks a bit less than last year.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

I’ve just given you 2019,2022 and a comparison of 2023 v 2024 For Marshall.

There is a very clear jump in output and it coincides with Lyon.

Similar increases for Wilkie. Wood and Battle.

Nas has doubled his output. Owens a very clear jump aswell.

Sincs very much on par with his 2022.

The one who has gone backwards… Steele.

C'mon Stav, surely you've twigged by now.

Lyon = bad

Ratts = good

Po has gone backwards under RTB... As has Mitchito, Jack Hayes and Nick Coffield (can't even get a game this year). Let's not even mention Darcy Wilson's form (dud). When Ross callled out Billings ahead of Cripps I almost fell off my chair.

Ross just can't develop or draft young talent.

I'll be accused of being a foamer or cult member for pointing this out.

 

[gringo2011]

C'mon Stav, surely you've twigged by now.

Lyon = bad

Ratts = good

Po has gone backwards under RTB... As has Mitchito, Jack Hayes and Nick Coffield (can't even get a game this year). Let's not even mention Darcy Wilson's form (dud). When Ross callled out Billings ahead of Cripps I almost fell off my chair.

Ross just can't develop or draft young talent.

I'll be accused of being a foamer or cult member for pointing this out.

Do you think he's massively improved the players that he inherited? I'm happy to credit stuff he's done but there aren't any I can think of apart from Hill who is a noticeably better player under Ross than Ratts.

Wilkie, Marshall, Battle etc were all good players before he came. Nas and Owens improved but were already earmarked as players of the future. Nas had played 17 games and Owens 7.

They were already the players getting talked up as our future. I don't think he waved a wand over them to make them better.

Ratts was pretty shit too but he got a few guys going by playing them and the drafting helped by finding quality. Lyon has a reputation for turning Byrnes types into 200 game soldiers. He really hasn't made a massive up tick in player output. Guys like Ross, Steele, Membrey, King etc are noticeably worse players.

Some might be age or inability to adjust to the game plan but he's not a messiah. He's just a coach that is having an injury interrupted disappointing year. We don't need to fantasise about all the great stuff he's done before he's done it.

 

[stavro#4]

Do you think he's massively improved the players that he inherited? I'm happy to credit stuff he's done but there aren't any I can think of apart from Hill who is a noticeably better player under Ross than Ratts.

Wilkie, Marshall, Battle etc were all good players before he came. Nas and Owens improved but were already earmarked as players of the future. Nas had played 17 games and Owens 7.

They were already the players getting talked up as our future. I don't think he waved a wand over them to make them better.

Ratts was pretty shit too but he got a few guys going by playing them and the drafting helped by finding quality. Lyon has a reputation for turning Byrnes types into 200 game soldiers. He really hasn't made a massive up tick in player output. Guys like Ross, Steele, Membrey, King etc are noticeably worse players.

Some might be age or inability to adjust to the game plan but he's not a messiah. He's just a coach that is having an injury interrupted disappointing year. We don't need to fantasise about all the great stuff he's done before he's done it.

He made finals last year. He has struggled this year but 6 losses have been <18 points.

Without Crouch - who was a huge part of 2023. With Steele injured/regressing.

It hasn’t been pretty at times. But he is doing a lot of this on the back of development of kids and improvement from the senior blokes around under Ratten.

It has clearly been evident that we have a huge issue in midfield and until we develop or land 2-4 A grade mids. This is our future.

 

[gringo2011]

He made finals last year. He has struggled this year but 6 losses have been <18 points.

Without Crouch - who was a huge part of 2023. With Steele injured/regressing.

It hasn’t been pretty at times. But he is doing a lot of this on the back of development of kids and improvement from the senior blokes around under Ratten.

It has clearly been evident that we have a huge issue in midfield and until we develop or land 2-4 A grade mids. This is our future.

The results are flattering though. We locked them down and made them ugly and weren't really in most of those games.

No-one has 4x A grade mids but we need at least one gun and some support crew. With Steele still there we probably need one with guys like Dow in support and some drafted kids to develop up underneath so that we don't have a cliff hit. We've needed good mids for 10 years and just don't seem to rate them enough to chase them.

To me we also need depth. Pretty much every year since 2020 we have had injury ruin our season because we don't have midfield depth.

 

[stavro#4]

The results are flattering though. We locked them down and made them ugly and weren't really in most of those games.

No-one has 4x A grade mids but we need at least one gun and some support crew. With Steele still there we probably need one with guys like Dow in support and some drafted kids to develop up underneath so that we don't have a cliff hit. We've needed good mids for 10 years and just don't seem to rate them enough to chase them.

To me we also need depth. Pretty much every year since 2020 we have had injury ruin our season because we don't have midfield depth.

Your posts about our issues swing wildly.

One minute we don’t have stars. Then it’s that we are ready to be pushing up the ladder and can’t afford to let anyone go. Now it’s we need further depth.


there is a reason people are able to step back and say, yeah I can see how losing a Battle or a Marshall (both would be rough and would need a lot of selling) to make us better.

But we are clearly getting development and games into kids - so it’s not like the mindset of what they are doing would fundamentally need to change.

We have cap space. Some good not superstar players and minimal assets to go along with some very good youth.

Something has to give

 

[The Punter]

Losing Battle or Marshall only makes us better if we get (at least eventually) better players in to the club in return.

I don't think Marshall is going anywhere primarily because no one will pay the price we will ask. The Battle stuff has all been talked out.

 

[Satanic Saint]

Crouch’s knee is shot unfortunately. Heard from someone close to him today that he won’t play again. Sad because he played his best footy for us in the last 12-24 months.

Correct. Will probably be forced to retire. Was massive for us last year.

 

[SteeleSaints]

Your posts about our issues swing wildly.
One minute we don’t have stars. Then it’s that we are ready to be pushing up the ladder and can’t afford to let anyone go. Now it’s we need further depth.
there is a reason people are able to step back and say, yeah I can see how losing a Battle or a Marshall (both would be rough and would need a lot of selling) to make us better.
But we are clearly getting development and games into kids - so it’s not like the mindset of what they are doing would fundamentally need to change.
We have cap space. Some good not superstar players and minimal assets to go along with some very good youth.
Something has to give

I am no draft expert but I just cant see the quality in this years draft to warrant losing players like Marshall or Battle.

Its absolute folly to believe every draft year is equal in quality, as history shows the exact opposite. The thing with the well managed clubs is they have assessed each years draft crops well in advance and planned to trade in or out of the stronger or weaker drafts. I understand our drafting has improved in the past few years, so hopefully we can now pull the right strings in assessing draft years.

I have more faith in Gubby, SOS & Dalrymple pulling the right levers in the right draft years, so hopefully if we do lose any players this is a good year to do it. Personally I have reservations re the quality of the kids in this years draft, but they are the experts in whom we trust. Player contracts obviously dictate when players become free agents, but it seems some clubs have even managed that better.

We cant dictate where we will finish ladder wise, so lets say we win finish 14th, giving us pick # 5 at the draft. If we lose Battle as a FA we are hoping we get a 1st round compensation meaning a hyperthetical picks #5 & #6. Hopefully their assessment of the draft works out for the better giving us the elite midfielders we require. Obviously list wise Battle's position will be easier to fill than Marshall, but at some stage we are going to have to also find another ruckman. Although Heath has improved I still have reservations he can step up when required.

 

[stavro#4]

I am no draft expert but I just cant see the quality in this years draft to warrant losing players like Marshall or Battle.

Its absolute folly to believe every draft year is equal in quality, as history shows the exact opposite. The thing with the well managed clubs is they have assessed each years draft crops well in advance and planned to trade in or out of the stronger or weaker drafts. I understand our drafting has improved in the past few years, so hopefully we can now pull the right strings in assessing draft years.

I have more faith in Gubby, SOS & Dalrymple pulling the right levers in the right draft years, so hopefully if we do lose any players this is a good year to do it. Personally I have reservations re the quality of the kids in this years draft, but they are the experts in whom we trust. Player contracts obviously dictate when players become free agents, but it seems some clubs have even managed that better.

We cant dictate where we will finish ladder wise, so lets say we win finish 14th, giving us pick # 5 at the draft. If we lose Battle as a FA we are hoping we get a 1st round compensation meaning a hyperthetical picks #5 & #6. Hopefully their assessment of the draft works out for the better giving us the elite midfielders we require. Obviously list wise Battle's position will be easier to fill than Marshall, but at some stage we are going to have to also find another ruckman. Although Heath has improved I still have reservations he can step up when required.

And I would 100% agree with you.

But by the same token I’m sure you can also understand that by keeping what you have adding 1 top 10 pick and Stengle - probably doesn’t raise the ceiling to that of contenders and if we are being realistic, pinning our hopes on bringing in LDU and those types to plug the gaps are going to be less then 50-50.

Unfortunately, what is the most likely outcome is blowing cap space on B graders that get us in the 8 but are cannon fodder for the legitimate favourites - or our 1 first rounder each year eventually strikes gold and we land a star.

There are merits and cons for both arguments and that is what is commonly forgotten. Ultimately we are effectively on the clock as you need to achieve contention in the timeline where Marshall Sinclair Steele etc are at their peak, so you effectively get another season max of building that type of team.

Moving Marshall and Battle for maximum values gives you an opportunity to add an entirely new storey to the house before the ceiling goes on - or the frame work doesn’t hold and it collapses.

 

[gringo2011]

Your posts about our issues swing wildly.

One minute we don’t have stars. Then it’s that we are ready to be pushing up the ladder and can’t afford to let anyone go. Now it’s we need further depth.


there is a reason people are able to step back and say, yeah I can see how losing a Battle or a Marshall (both would be rough and would need a lot of selling) to make us better.

But we are clearly getting development and games into kids - so it’s not like the mindset of what they are doing would fundamentally need to change.

We have cap space. Some good not superstar players and minimal assets to go along with some very good youth.

Something has to give

We don’t have any superstars. I think we have a decent side that should be a finals side with everyone available. Taking the better players out will make us worse. It’s not really hard. The club has to offer some reward for the pain they put us through.

To me we will probably lose depth from guys like Membrey, Ross etc moving on. Taking Marshall and Battle out makes us like we were with injuries.

If we lose all these players when do we start playing finals again? If this is another rebuild I’m not buying another membership until we change the board.

 

[gringo2011]

Losing Battle or Marshall only makes us better if we get (at least eventually) better players in to the club in return.

I don't think Marshall is going anywhere primarily because no one will pay the price we will ask. The Battle stuff has all been talked out.

There isn’t going to be a quick result if we are waiting for the youth to be our core. Most are under 21.

 

[stavro#4]

gringo2011

Clubs with 4 Gun mids:

Swans: Gulden Heeney Warner Mills (hasn’t even played yet) with a plethora of good mids supporting them.

Giants: Cogniglio Callaghan Kelly Green

Pies: Naicos Jaicos De Goey Pendles

Lions: Neale Ashcroft Dunkley Mcluggage

Dogs: Treloar Bont Libba Richards

Suns: Millar Anderson Rowell Flanders

 

[kernelT]

The results are flattering though. We locked them down and made them ugly and weren't really in most of those games.

No-one has 4x A grade mids but we need at least one gun and some support crew. With Steele still there we probably need one with guys like Dow in support and some drafted kids to develop up underneath so that we don't have a cliff hit. We've needed good mids for 10 years and just don't seem to rate them enough to chase them.

To me we also need depth. Pretty much every year since 2020 we have had injury ruin our season because we don't have midfield depth.

The obvious question is: Why aren't we going better if we have great development and added some missing pieces via trades?

I can't see an overall improvement in the list… there as many who have gone backwards or stagnated as have improved.

We've had injuries but have been close to full strength for a few weeks, if we've improved then we should see another 6 or 7 wins this year. Dow should be able to offset Crouch, Henry an upgrade to Gresham.

King, Membrey, Jones, Paton, Byrnes have all plateaued. Sinclair & Wilkie have dropped this year. Steele a shadow of his former self.

 

[gringo2011]

gringo2011

Clubs with 4 Gun mids:

Swans: Gulden Heeney Warner Mills (hasn’t even played yet) with a plethora of good mids supporting them.

Giants: Cogniglio Callaghan Kelly Green

Pies: Naicos Jaicos De Goey Pendles

Lions: Neale Ashcroft Dunkley Mcluggage

Dogs: Treloar Bont Libba Richards

Suns: Millar Anderson Rowell Flanders

You don’t need that many and there are plenty that are hardly stars.

 

[stavro#4]

The obvious question is: Why aren't we going better if we have great development and added some missing pieces via trades?

I can't see an overall improvement in the list… there as many who have gone backwards or stagnated as have improved.

We've had injuries but have been close to full strength for a few weeks, if we've improved then we should see another 6 or 7 wins this year. Dow should be able to offset Crouch, Henry an upgrade to Gresham.

King, Membrey, Jones, Paton, Byrnes have all plateaued. Sinclair & Wilkie have dropped this year. Steele a shadow of his former self.

It really isn’t rocket science.

The area we have regressed due to form and injury is our centre square mids. Crouch and Steele. Ross looks like he went one year too many.

Infact where the giants showed us up in the finals has become a bigger issue for us.

You can develop your kids. But if you have weakened the engine of the side. You are going to struggle.

Easy to see both have occurred.

 

[MOLTEN GANGLANDS]

You don’t need that many and there are plenty that are hardly stars.

what's your point gringo? our midfield have been lackluster for a long time, we need a good midfield to compete, it's plain as day. The clubs he listed have good midfields. end of story. You're insufferable sometimes

 

[stavro#4]

You don’t need that many and there are plenty that are hardly stars.

I said 2-4.

You chose to say no side has 4.

Was just showing you that it is fairly common.

 

[True Believer]

The obvious question is: Why aren't we going better if we have great development and added some missing pieces via trades?

I can't see an overall improvement in the list… there as many who have gone backwards or stagnated as have improved.

We've had injuries but have been close to full strength for a few weeks, if we've improved then we should see another 6 or 7 wins this year. Dow should be able to offset Crouch, Henry an upgrade to Gresham.

King, Membrey, Jones, Paton, Byrnes have all plateaued. Sinclair & Wilkie have dropped this year. Steele a shadow of his former self.

Players don't just come in halfway through the season off no, or limited, pre-season and perform at peak - there is a period of time where they build up to peak performance, not to mention team continuity. You are right, by adding players we should progress. Unfortunately, Dow has not added to Crouch and Steele, he has effectively now replaced Crouch, which if rumours are to be believed, will now be permanent as Crouch's knee is kaput. That means we have not progressed; we have simply stayed in place.

We need to add a handful of quality mids as our highest list priority. We need to add at least 2, maybe 3, immediately. Steele looks like he has slowed down this season, although that may be due to injury or even the absence of Crouch to share the load. Crouch looks like he may have succumbed permanently to injury. That's our two best mids either gone or reduced in output! If we don't see an elevation of one of our kids into the midfield for next year, and/or the addition of a seasoned, reasonable quality mid this off season, next year will be a right off as well.

 

[Coconut_twirl]

Older Seb Ross for younger Seb Ross (Parfitt)?

This kinda leads in to a couple of interesting areas.

Firstly, would fans really get upset if trades got announced in-season. I mean, like pitch forks and torches march on the club? If Geelong and St Kilda announced that they had come to terms for Seb Ross to transfer at the end of this year, I don't think most of us would be upset, unless the terms of the trade were extremely poor. It would be good practice in that the player gets as much time as possible to make open arrangements, and the fans get to send off a player who has had a fantastic career in service to the club.

Secondly, if we're not averse to trades being announced in-season, why don't we just let them happen in-season? Seb Ross for this years second? Thank you very much. Maybe just put a deadline date on it so it all coincides with the mid-season draft.

Happens all the time in the NRL and nobody bats an eyelid. Player still gives it their all during their playing contract.

 

[kernelT]

It really isn’t rocket science.

The area we have regressed due to form and injury is our centre square mids. Crouch and Steele. Ross looks like he went one year too many.

Infact where the giants showed us up in the finals has become a bigger issue for us.

You can develop your kids. But if you have weakened the engine of the side. You are going to struggle.

Easy to see both have occurred.

We’ve brought in Henry & Dow to improve our midfield plus added a jet in Wilson. Clark a top 10 mid playing.

We have schoey and Bonner playing so Sinclair can run through the mid.

Hill & Wood are going well.

It seems that any deficiencies we have are because the list is no good but any positives are attributed to the coaching and development.

The list looks better now than it has for about 15 years, yet we’re not travelling any better than when Ratten was coaching.

 

[kernelT]

Players don't just come in halfway through the season off no, or limited, pre-season and perform at peak - there is a period of time where they build up to peak performance, not to mention team continuity. You are right, by adding players we should progress. Unfortunately, Dow has not added to Crouch and Steele, he has effectively now replaced Crouch, which if rumours are to be believed, will now be permanent as Crouch's knee is kaput. That means we have not progressed; we have simply stayed in place.

We need to add a handful of quality mids as our highest list priority. We need to add at least 2, maybe 3, immediately. Steele looks like he has slowed down this season, although that may be due to injury or even the absence of Crouch to share the load. Crouch looks like he may have succumbed permanently to injury. That's our two best mids either gone or reduced in output! If we don't see an elevation of one of our kids into the midfield for next year, and/or the addition of a seasoned, reasonable quality mid this off season, next year will be a right off as well.

I think we've finally added a few over the last few years.

Nas, Windhager, Owens, Wilson, Henry, Phillipou… fair bit of talent and draft capital in that pool, a couple more this draft and we should be able to develop a couple of elite players.

 

[Diehard Saint]

We’ve brought in Henry & Dow to improve our midfield plus added a jet in Wilson. Clark a top 10 mid playing.

We have schoey and Bonner playing so Sinclair can run through the mid.

Hill & Wood are going well.

It seems that any deficiencies we have are because the list is no good but any positives are attributed to the coaching and development.

The list looks better now than it has for about 15 years, yet we’re not travelling any better than when Ratten was coaching.

It may look better on paper but...
problem is we lost Crouch for an entire season (it seems) in the area we could least afford it, and he has been very good for us in the past few years. We can see the difference without him.

Dow has come in underdone, so hopefully will improve, but was supposed to be in addition to Crouch, not instead of him.

Henry and Wilson are not the ball getting, centre bounce mids that Crouch is, so cant really use them as an example.

 

[gringo2011]

what's your point gringo? our midfield have been lackluster for a long time, we need a good midfield to compete, it's plain as day. The clubs he listed have good midfields. end of story. You're insufferable sometimes

I reckon one gun mid would change us up immeasurably. Steel before injury this season and a fit Dow with a drafted kid makes us a lot better. Especially with Windy developing. Probably need a bit of depth like Brodie type too. Just for injury cover even.

Suggesting that we are no good until we have 4 star quality mids is just setting a bar so high that you'll never get there.

Chase Callaghan, LDU types in a trade and some depth or bridging player like Parker or Brodie. Get those and we are sorted. Add Stengle and keep our existing players and I reckon we are sitting similar to Essendon. Better to bring kids through and attract players in trades.