List Mgmt. 2024 Trade Thread - No.1

[phantom13]

At the moment the forward line and scoring is a mess. But over the last few weeks our defensive game has been much better and I'm not sure we're actually as much of a mess as the media makes out.

I actually think this is a good thing as it improves the chances of keeping Battle and getting guys like LDU over.

No I mean more broadly.

We should be bottoming out but we’re probably gonna keep winning games, maybe we bounce back next season, maybe we’re bottom 4 next season.

The collective we, supporters, the club, are a mess

 

[stavro#4]

So CBF multiposting it. Italics is you, bolded for effect.


I think we will. But how can I truly answer that without seeing the list.

Who’s to say we don’t have picks 4+5 and trade 5 for LDU?

Who’s to say battle doesn’t re-sign and then we land Stengle or Ben Ainsworth (meh)

Thats very much 2025 is it not?

Wont hold my breath for an apology from gubby88

Agree on LDU though. Thats basically Battle for LDU.

I’m clearly referring to this year and talking about picks 4+5

 

[stavro#4]

We are clearly trying to win as many games as we can. With our defensive profile returning we could actually win quite a few games in the run home. If we can find a way to score then look out

I’m not saying we aren’t.

I’m clearly hoping we don’t and we have a fairly tough run which should hopefully ensure that better teams just beat us.

Lions at the Gabba
Swans
Port
Adelaide in Adelaide
West coast (win)
Essendon (small possibility)
Lions
Richmond (win)
Cats
Blues.

 

[phantom13]

Do you think we'll be bottom 4 next season? when do we play finals next and how long does Ross get before we have to knife him if he doesn't move us forward?

I think we will. But how can I truly answer that without seeing the list.

Who’s to say we don’t have picks 4+5 and trade 5 for LDU?

Who’s to say battle doesn’t re-sign and then we land Stengle or Ben Ainsworth (meh)

Because you seem to be confused stavro#4

How are you clearly referring to this year when the direct question you answered was regarding next season?

Were you confused, because im not at all confused, its very clear.

 

[MrFoster]

He got plenty of games with the Bombers last year. Didn't particularly distinguish himself.

Hobbs averaged 20 possessions last year, 8 contested, 3 clearances a game..

Their prized recruit from a couple of years ago Caldwell only averaged 19 possessions..

Think he would be more than handy in our midfield. Would I want Hobbs over Nasier now?

Basically we need players who
1. can get the ball and cleanly get it to our outside players

Currently even Bradly Hill, Bonner regularly miss targets because we can’t control or break even in the midfield, this put too much pressure on the outside players.

 

[stavro#4]

Because you seem to be confused stavro#4

How are you clearly referring to this year when the direct question you answered was regarding next season?

Were you confused, because im not at all confused, it’s very clear.

I’m not confused.

When I wrote back last night I didn’t read the first part properly.

I thought the question read do you think we will be play finals next season

To which I explained I think we will but how can I truly answer without seeing the list.

I then explained what we could have this year and how we might use it to get better or what we might try and pivot to if Battle signs.

It makes no sense if I believed we would be bottom 4 next season if we sign Battle and go after Stengle or Ainsworth.

 

[MrFoster]

Because you seem to be confused stavro#4

How are you clearly referring to this year when the direct question you answered was regarding next season?

Were you confused, because im not at all confused, its very clear.

No one can predict the next season.. Fix our midfield issue this off season, maybe we’ll rise up.. but I agree drafting 2 gun 18 year old mids are not going to magically make us top 6.. Young kids takes time. That’s why we also need trades / use FA..

The good thing is this team has already learned the defensive side of the game which is important if you want to win finals.. Adding offensive game is a matter of getting elite mids and tweaking the game style to suit

 

[phantom13]

I’m not confused.

When I wrote back last night I didn’t read the first part properly.

I thought the question read do you think we will be play finals next season

To which I explained I think we will but how can I truly answer without seeing the list.

I then explained what we could have this year and how we might use it to get better or what we might try and pivot to if Battle signs.

It makes no sense if I believed we would be bottom 4 next season if we sign Battle and go after Stengle or Ainsworth.

Right so you made a mistake in your response.

Probably should just say that.

No one can predict the next season.. Fix our midfield issue this off season, maybe we’ll rise up.. but I agree drafting 2 gun 18 year old mids are not going to magically make us top 6.. Young kids takes time. That’s why we also need trades / use FA..

The good thing is this team has already learned the defensive side of the game which is important if you want to win finals.. Adding offensive game is a matter of getting elite mids and tweaking the game style to suit

Thats fine but there was a clear question and answer. Mistake got made, its alright, weve all been there.

FWIW (and its not much).

If Battle is gone and if we get band 1 for him (both BIG ifs) trading it for LDU would be a smart option. We never win the FA battles when we are in a fist fight with the big clubs, letting him get out a year early and suring him up then taking the other pick to the draft is good business IMO.

Its all predicated on us not winning many more games so... Ross, do your ****ing job and have us lose.

 

[StCicatriz]

Interesting read the last 200 posts.

Can see both arguments about Battle.

Losing him makes our backline weaker, but losing him 'potentially' makes the midfield stronger.
All predicated on us getting a band 1.

If (big if) the rumours of an average mill a season (if true Battle should definitely take it and run) are true that is band 1 territory.

If not and we get a Gresham type pick, it is a disaster.

If we do get two top end picks we have to nail them then they have to come good. We will be wondering season three if Pou will come good so it is a long haul.

Unfortunately this is a result of not selecting mids for a decade, we don't have a basis to replenish and with Tassie coming in we need to do it now.

So do we break a few eggs to make an omelette or do we catch bird flu and the eggs dry up?
SoS and Dalrymple get paid to do this.

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well summarised

agree entirely.

like you've said battle is a known performer. he's an attacking CHB. takes the game on. stands up regularly. they're not easy to find.

for mine there's too many hoops to jump through to turn battle into an elite mid. here's what has to happen:

• battle has to want to leave to a club with salary cap room
• battles offer has to trigger band 1 compo, when players contracts are suddenly going to 7 year deals and on more and more coin. there's 100% an inflationary aspect on contracts. this is an unknown, completely uncontrollable and a risk we get band 1 compo
• our ladder position has to remain the same. if we start winning games that pick 5 could blow out to pick 8-10. again do we want to be shipping battle off for pick 10?
• the draft pool has to be strong enough to actually provide an elite midfield talent inside the top 5 picks and remember it has to be two elite mids,. there's not point selling battle if there's only one available, as we will already have the pick available to get that mid,
• we have to make the right draft selections... we have been extremely poor at doing this,
• if we do somehow get 2 top 5 picks and we get the elite midfielder, we actually have to develop them into an elite midfielder. we do not have good form here,
• we then have to find a CHB replacement. we currently do not have one.

there's just far too many moving parts. things out of our control. i think our ladder position will improve too.

TBH i'd rather just keep Battle and take one pick to the draft.

 

[phantom13]

well summarised

agree entirely.

like you've said battle is a known performer. he's an attacking CHB. takes the game on. stands up regularly. they're not easy to find.

for mine there's too many hoops to jump through to turn battle into an elite mid. here's what has to happen:

• battle has to want to leave to a club with salary cap room
• battles offer has to trigger band 1 compo, when players contracts are suddenly going to 7 year deals and on more and more coin. there's 100% an inflationary aspect on contracts. this is an unknown, completely uncontrollable and a risk we get band 1 compo
• our ladder position has to remain the same. if we start winning games that pick 5 could blow out to pick 8-10. again do we want to be shipping battle off for pick 10?
• the draft pool has to be strong enough to actually provide an elite midfield talent inside the top 5 picks and remember it has to be two elite mids,. there's not point selling battle if there's only one available, as we will already have the pick available to get that mid,
• we have to make the right draft selections... we have been extremely poor at doing this,
• if we do somehow get 2 top 5 picks and we get the elite midfielder, we actually have to develop them into an elite midfielder. we do not have good form here,
• we then have to find a CHB replacement. we currently do not have one.

there's just far too many moving parts. things out of our control. i think our ladder position will improve too.

The reality is we can only control one aspect of this whole thing though. Our offer to Battle, thats it, we literally dont control any other part of it.

Now we can get a very very good steer on what deal would be required to get band 1 and IMO we should use that info to help inform what we offer him. If we have to offer him overs to retain or trigger band 1 we should go up to that point.

Its a risk mitigation exercise to me. We either need to keep him or get band 1 (unless he chooses to walk for less money than our offer which would be a disaster).

 

[SteeleSaints]

The St Kilda thing to do is lose Battle get compensation and in two years time having to pay a 1st round pick to trade in a similiar player because we havent got a decent replacement on the list. I understand its Battles decision to leave or stay, but to me from what we are hearing the club are almost hoping he will go so they can get a band 1 pick. Im sure if the kid was made to feel wanted and loved he would chose to stay.

Well be careful what you wish St Kilda you simply cant lose kids who have played their heart out for the club and expect it not to erode the bonds around the club. They have memories like gold fish at the club how did it improve our list losing Stanley, Ball, McEvoy, Goddard, Dawson & Dal Santo. Sucessful clubs dont lose your culture building kids, they trade out fringe players who can be readily replaced.

 

[borderbarry]

I would rather keep Josh Battle

26

Josh Battle

Age

26

Ht

193cm

Wt

93kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.9

3star

K

9.0

3star

HB

3.9

3star

M

5.0

5star

T

2.4

4star

MG

196.8

3star

D

11.0

3star

K

7.3

3star

HB

3.8

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

1.8

3star

MG

142.8

3star

D

10.8

3star

K

6.2

3star

HB

4.6

4star

M

3.4

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

175.6

3star

and offload Dougal.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

I would rather keep Josh Battle and offload Dougal.

We all would but one is an UFA & the other is simply OOC.

 

[borderbarry]

Those up for retirement include Jones, Seb, Membry. Webster. Anyone else?

 

[70s sainter]

I’m not saying we aren’t.

I’m clearly hoping we don’t and we have a fairly tough run which should hopefully ensure that better teams just beat us.

Lions at the Gabba
Swans
Port
Adelaide in Adelaide
West coast (win)
Essendon (small possibility)
Lions
Richmond (win)
Cats
Blues.

I can easily see 3-5 wins in that run home . That would leave us with 8 wins - provide hope for next year . Keep morale high.
10 wins same effect but maybe too high on draft day . Based on last years ladder we would finish 12th -14 with 10 wins

 

[stavro#4]

The St Kilda thing to do is lose Battle get compensation and in two years time having the pay a 1st round pick to trade in a similiar player because we havent got a decent replacement on the list. I understand its Battles decision to leave or stay, but to me from what we are hearing the club are almost hoping he will go so they can get a band 1 pick.

Well be careful what you wish St Kilda you simply cant lose kids who have played the heart out for the club and expect it not to erode the bonds around the club.

So the club should overpay a player or it’s as simple the club is hoping he will go?


If he was a restricted free agent the offer won’t be as high
If he asked to be traded the hawks still wouldn’t be paying him as much.


Which means the club is in the right ball park with its contract.

If Battle can get Band 1 type of offers. We shouldn’t be even contemplating going near that - which is clearly an overpay to entice him across.

Not because they value the pick over the player. But simply because he isn’t worth that money.

 

[stavro#4]

I can easily see 3-5 wins in that run home . That would leave us with 8 wins - provide hope for next year . Keep morale high.
10 wins same effect but maybe too high on draft day . Based on last years ladder we would finish 12th -14 with 10 wins

I’ve got us for roughly 3.

Think it’s optimistic if we are thinking we can roll the lions at marvel or if the Cats are finals bound.

Swans and Port both beat us.

Adelaide should beat us at home too.

Which ones are you pencilling in?

 

[stavro#4]

Those up for retirement include Jones, Seb, Membry. Webster. Anyone else?

Webster is in negotiations for a new deal.

Same with Butler

 

[kernelT]

The St Kilda thing to do is lose Battle get compensation and in two years time having the pay a 1st round pick to trade in a similiar player because we havent got a decent replacement on the list. I understand its Battles decision to leave or stay, but to me from what we are hearing the club are almost hoping he will go so they can get a band 1 pick. Im sure if the kid was made to feel wanted and loved he would chose to stay.

Well be careful what you wish St Kilda you simply cant lose kids who have played the heart out for the club and expect it not to erode the bonds around the club. They have memories like gold fish at the club how did it improve our list losing McEvoy, Goddard, Dawson & Dal Santo.
Sucessful clubs dont lose your culture building kids, they trade out fringe players who can be readily replaced.

As the great gringo2011 has said many times, we often tend to complicate things and make moves when we need to keep it simple, e.g. keep the best 22 players we have when we have ample cap room to accommodate them.

Sure we have DiFfeReNt PeOpLe running the club now, but the odds are stacked against cashing in good players for picks and getting a good return. We're gambling again in an attempt to make up previous losses.

What I don't quite understand is, if we have added Wilson, Henry & Dow… and return to full strength, how can we be so far off the pace? What was the point of trading for Dow & Henry if they don't improve us?

 

[stavro#4]

As the great gringo2011 has said many times, we often tend to complicate things and make moves when we need to keep it simple, e.g. keep the best 22 players we have when we have ample cap room to accommodate them.

Sure we have DiFfeReNt PeOpLe running the club now, but the odds are stacked against cashing in good players for picks and getting a good return. We're gambling again in an attempt to make up previous losses.

What I don't quite understand is, if we have added Wilson, Henry & Dow… and return to full strength, how can we be so far off the pace? What was the point of trading for Dow & Henry if they don't improve us?

We lost 5 games by under 2 goals when severely impact by injuries and suspension.

3 wins from that group and we would be sitting on 32 points in 6-7th position. Which would also be equal 4th and 4 points behind Carlton in second.

The issue is that we have 10 games left and we need to make up those 3 wins. It’s almost impossible considering our fixture from here.

So it’s in our best interest to hold onto 14/15th on the ladder.

 

[kernelT]

But simply because he isn’t worth that money.

Of course he is if another club is offering it.

We have a shit tonne of salary cap room and a dearth of talent, it would be idiotic to create some arbitrary 'worth' when we very rarely draft 200 game players and then usually flush the ones we do get right.

Battle is 25, a gun versatile player who has been in our best 10 the last couple of years.

Finding a replacement will cost us twice as much (and draft capital) as we'd pay to keep him.

 

[kernelT]

i love the way we played on the weekend. i loved how we made that silk team with the GOAT coach look like a bunch of absolute pedestrians playing in their shells

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You could be a psychopath, get in for a screening at your earliest convenience.

 

[beside the seaside]

No I mean more broadly.

We should be bottoming out but we’re probably gonna keep winning games, maybe we bounce back next season, maybe we’re bottom 4 next season.

The collective we, supporters, the club, are a mess

I think you're overthinking it. No sides go out and actively try to lose. If we get better this year I think it's a good thing going forward.

 

[stavro#4]

Of course he is if another club is offering it.

We have a shit tonne of salary cap room and a dearth of talent, it would be idiotic to create some arbitrary 'worth' when we very rarely draft 200 game players and the flush the ones we do get right.

Battle is 25, a gun versatile player who has been in our best 10 the last couple of years.

Finding a replacement will cost us twice as much (and draft capital) as we'd pay to keep him.

That isn’t how it works.

Players get over payed so that clubs can leverage their salary cap and ensure they don’t lose any assets acquiring the player. It’s a tactic available - not a measure of the players value.

We are trying the same tactic to lure Brayshaw LDU Weitering.

All 3 should be matched without consideration by their clubs - if they can afford too.

Battle is not the equivalent level of player.

 

[SteeleSaints]

So the club should overpay a player or it’s as simple the club is hoping he will go?


If he was a restricted free agent the offer won’t be as high
If he asked to be traded the hawks still wouldn’t be paying him as much.


Which means the club is in the right ball park with its contract.

If Battle can get Band 1 type of offers. We shouldn’t be even contemplating going near that - which is clearly an overpay to entice him across.

Not because they value the pick over the player. But simply because he isn’t worth that money.

How do you quantify over paid? Im sure if the kid was made to feel really needed and loved and the club gave a little more he would be happy to stay. From what you have portrayed the club have set him up to push him out knowing he was an UFA. You say the club made a good offer early, but its obvious they knew/hoped other clubs would come in an offer much better $$$ given the rises in TPP in coming years.

The clubs stance is that is our best and final offer (superficially looks like you want him to stay, but would prefer compensation). Battle has just had a baby and is obviously looking to set his family up for the rest of their lives. He then gets his ego stroked by offers from a number of other clubs and our club refuses to move on their first offer, knowing it leaves him little choice but to leave. Most people are very loyal to those they love, but when the love is not returned its easier to move on. For me its a shitty way to do business St Kilda!!!

I dont know what Josh's previous contracts have been like, but how would anyone feel when previously the same club were paying under performing players Gresham, Billings etc ridiculous dollars and he tries his heart out and when its his turn he doesnt get rewarded.

I also think your assessment of Battle not being an integral player to the club is very very wrong.