List Mgmt. 2024 Trade Thread - No.1

[StCicatriz]

But we clearly don’t have the cattle to contend.

We didn’t last year. We don’t this year. We have missed the free agents and there isn’t anything on offer that moves us from what we are into a contender for next year.

So why does it matter?

That doesn’t mean writing off 2025. It means that there is a difference in making the 8 and being good enough to win the the thing.

We may achieve one but not the other.

So these kids have time. They don’t need to be guns immediately- would be preferable

it matters because although we probably don't give the flag a shake, being competitive and playing finals keeps the development going and players engaged.

i think if you're looking at 2025 and 2026 out of finals you're going to pay overs to retain what we have and i think you lose some players to requesting trades. i think it stunts player development for those in the 21-26 age bracket too.

if we change the close losses where does that put us? i'm guessing top 6.

we have the list to be far better than bottom 6. i don't think its top 4 but its definitely a top 6 list.

my worry is if we arent playing finals guys like pou, owens, nas, windhager, wilson, king, henry wont get the development they need to give us an opportunity to run at a flag when the list improves over the next 3 years. thats before you look at player retention. they need to experience finals and test themselves at the elite end of the comp.

 

[StCicatriz]

You’re arguing your point with the exact rationale as to why it’s important to our list build to get high end picks.

That is, because more often than not the best mids are drafted with early picks. Of those you mentioned for us, Phillipou is the earliest and projects to be the best of exposed form.
Windhager is honest and Wilson and Owens haven’t shown they have what it takes to be AFL mids yet.

Any of Jagga Smith, Langford, Reid, Draper and Smilie could come in and have similar impact to Zac Jones across the course of a season.

i couldnt disagree more on that last sentence and i'm not a zac jones fan. i think you'll just break the kids in the first season.

 

[_Maximus_12]

it matters because although we probably don't give the flag a shake, being competitive and playing finals keeps the development going and players engaged.

i think if you're looking at 2025 and 2026 out of finals you're going to pay overs to retain what we have and i think you lose some players to requesting trades. i think it stunts player development for those in the 21-26 age bracket too.

if we change the close losses where does that put us? i'm guessing top 6.

we have the list to be far better than bottom 6. i don't think its top 4 but its definitely a top 6 list.

my worry is if we arent playing finals guys like pou, owens, nas, windhager, wilson, king, henry wont get the development they need to give us an opportunity to run at a flag when the list improves over the next 3 years. thats before you look at player retention. they need to experience finals and test themselves at the elite end of the comp.

If you believe it’s a top 6 list then the impact of losing one above average player shouldn’t be overly profound

 

[StCicatriz]

If you believe it’s a top 6 list then the impact of losing one above average player shouldn’t be overly profound

like i said if you over turn the 10 point losses to wins we are top 6. you don't and we are where we are... bottom 6.

you lose battle you're leaking goals and it makes it harder to over turn those results, if anything it takes it from a 10 point loss to a 4 goal loss at a minimum.

so we stay where we are.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

the first sentence is true, but he's also been very vocal about having a dual narrative and the need to be competitive and that we still want to play finals.

If you haven't twigged that is the plan then maybe you need to find a new hobby for the next few seasons.

That retort makes absolutely zero sense at all. Every coach & club wants to be as competitive as they can... you're moaning about a strategy that focuses on the draft.

I'm still trying to work out what you're arguing about TBH.

Make Battle the highest paid player in the league & finish 9th for the next decade? Is that your grand plan?

 

[Mr_R0b0t]

Why doesnt he (Jaxon Binns) get played at Carlton? The kid just keeps racking them up but seems the last picked. In his draft year he was playing as an endurance beast wingmen, he has signed to 2026 so would take something to get him away from the Blues.

SNAPSHOT: “A hard running wingman/forward who racks up possessions on the outside and can hit the scoreboard.”

One of the hardest runners in this year’s AFL Draft crop is Jaxon Binns. The Dandenong Stingrays prospect has made a name for himself as a prolific outside midfielder, with the capacity to translate his best traits as a high half-forward.

I wonder if he could develop into an outside midfielder - either way RTB loves kids who can run all day?

What’s his contract status?

 

[stavro#4]

it matters because although we probably don't give the flag a shake, being competitive and playing finals keeps the development going and players engaged.

i think if you're looking at 2025 and 2026 out of finals you're going to pay overs to retain what we have and i think you lose some players to requesting trades. i think it stunts player development for those in the 21-26 age bracket too.

if we change the close losses where does that put us? i'm guessing top 6.

we have the list to be far better than bottom 6. i don't think its top 4 but its definitely a top 6 list.

my worry is if we arent playing finals guys like pou, owens, nas, windhager, wilson, king, henry wont get the development they need to give us an opportunity to run at a flag when the list improves over the next 3 years. thats before you look at player retention. they need to experience finals and test themselves at the elite end of the comp.

Thats one side of the argument.

Who’s to say that it doesn’t drive that group to step up and go to the next level and beyond?

you are also making a claim that we should overpay battle now.

I genuinely feel like those specifically arguing to retain Battle are being very emotional.

People are claiming he is a heart and soul 300 games. We will go backwards kids will demand more money to stay in future or they will request trades etc.

When you remove the emotion. Everyone here would admit that if we got pick 5 or 6 for Battle. It’s greater then any return we would get at the trade table.

That’s the starting point. No point arguing what that might be until we get there.

We might split the pick. We might trade it for a player.

Battle might stay.

But what is obvious is that the club hasn’t let him down at this point or tried to ship him out. They have given this a genuine crack at retaining him.

 

[_Maximus_12]

i couldnt disagree more on that last sentence and i'm not a zac jones fan. i think you'll just break the kids in the first season.

Zac Jones is averaging a whopping 13.8 possessions per game.
However will we replace that.

 

[stavro#4]

like i said if you over turn the 10 point losses to wins we are top 6. you don't and we are where we are... bottom 6.

you lose battle you're leaking goals and it makes it harder to over turn those results, if anything it takes it from a 10 point loss to a 4 goal loss at a minimum.

so we stay where we are.

This argument has more holes than cartoon cheese.

It could easily be said that we don’t have a side good enough to win those games.

The balanced view would be that we should have won 50% of those games. In which case we are where most fans thought. Stuck in 7-8th with a huge battle on our hands to make the 8 as it’s so bloody close.

So, we aren’t good enough to contend but good enough to fight for the right to be bent over week 1 of September action again.

You and others might enjoy saying we made finals.

But man I want to feel like we are good enough to win the ****ing thing again.

 

[The Punter]

Firstly, my Jones comp was based on his output yesterday, which is what we should be expecting from an elite mid drafted accordingly - eventual output.

It's obvious many don't want us to take any more (even temporary) steps backward. If Battle just wants to leave, we will have little choice. But we can make out well from that undesirable situation. Only the unreasonable (each way) are suggesting otherwise IMO.

 

[StCicatriz]

That retort makes absolutely zero sense at all. Every coach & club wants to be as competitive as they can... you're moaning about a strategy that focuses on the draft.

I'm still trying to work out what you're arguing about TBH.

Make Battle the highest paid player in the league & finish 9th for the next decade? Is that your grand plan?

i'm not arguing against the draft. we already have a good draft hand and we have good set of younger players to work with.

i'm not arguing that we finish 9th for a decade either.

i've outlined very clearly what i feel the argument is for keeping battle in terms of cap space, free agency, ladder position, player retention, player development and the draft.

if you can't make sense of it then i can't help you with that.

 

[StCicatriz]

This argument has more holes than cartoon cheese.

It could easily be said that we don’t have a side good enough to win those games.

The balanced view would be that we should have won 50% of those games. In which case we are where most fans thought. Stuck in 7-8th with a huge battle on our hands to make the 8 as it’s so bloody close.

So, we aren’t good enough to contend but good enough to fight for the right to be bent over week 1 of September action again.

You and others might enjoy saying we made finals.

But man I want to feel like we are good enough to win the ****ing thing again.

i dont think we can win the ****ing thing again if we are spending large chunks out of finals. i think that because i don't see our players developing and i think we will be up against it to retain what we have and attract anyone decent into the club. we are talking another near on half decade out of finals, if we are writing off next year and the year after.

i think we need to retain what we have to remain competitive with the hope of further improving.

i dont see one pick 5 changing things at all if we are continually deprecating parts of the list.

i see the improvement coming from the collective and using the organic nature of ladder position to get draft collateral.

one of the big issues we complained about on here is our inability for our players to stand up in big games where there is heightened expectation. we're not going to fix that missing finals.

 

[stavro#4]

i dont think we can win the ****ing thing again if we are spending large chunks out of finals. i think that because i don't see our players developing and i think we will be up against it to retain what we have and attract anyone decent into the club. we are talking another near on half decade out of finals.

i think we need to retain what we have to remain competitive with the hope of further improving.

i dont see one pick 5 changing things at all if we are continually deprecating parts of the list.

i see the improvement coming from the collective and using the organic nature of ladder position to get draft collateral.

The league isn’t equal.

Brisbane look like landing the best player in the draft 2/3 years - they have been a perennial finals side and just off a grand final.

Suns giants swans all have academy bonuses we can dream of.

There is nothing organic about this process.

But you are right. 1 top 5 pick probably doesn’t change our fortunes.

Luckily we are talking about letting Battle go and ending up with 2 top 5 picks as a starting position.

 

[StCicatriz]

Zac Jones is averaging a whopping 13.8 possessions per game.
However will we replace that.

yeh but he has a senior body running through the hardest position on the ground.

Pou has struggled with it and is now broken in his 2nd season.

Windhager has been injured. Owens has had injury issues and isnt full time.

if you think you can throw an 18/19 year old kid in there and he'll be ok then i dont know what to say.

 

[StCicatriz]

The league isn’t equal.

Brisbane look like landing the best player in the draft 2/3 years - they have been a perennial finals side and just off a grand final.

Suns giants swans all have academy bonuses we can dream of.

There is nothing organic about this process.

But you are right. 1 top 5 pick probably doesn’t change our fortunes.

Luckily we are talking about letting Battle go and ending up with 2 top 5 picks as a starting position.

so 1 more top 5 pick suddenly changes things does it?

 

[_Maximus_12]

so 1 more top 5 pick suddenly changes things does it?

2 top 5 draft picks can change the trajectory and fortunes of a club.

See Riewoldt & Kosi
Sheezel & Wardlaw
Franklin & Roughead

To name a few.

Have a look like every clubs list, and where their midfielders were drafted. You’ll notice a correlation between the best mids and their draft picks.

 

[stavro#4]

so 1 more top 5 pick suddenly changes things does it?

It gives the potential to change everything.

Yes.

You have to back in your recruitment team - especially in a draft like this.

But I want to give Dalrymple the opportunity

 

[Diehard Saint]

you think. who are they?

i'm no zac jones fan but playing as an inside mid is very hard to do. jack steele couldnt do it in two seasons but you think a new draftee will do it in his first. cmon!

Of course not. But we have to get some more young mids in sometime. Especially as we appear to be running out of those we’ve got with Crouch with a dubious knee and Jones possibly on the way out.

So why not now when we have a chance to potentially get 2? What are we waiting for - Tassie to come in? Of course they’ll take a little time - they pretty much always do - but we need more than one a year if we’re actually going to start going anywhere. Yes you can fluke some later in the draft but the best picks with hopefully the least risk attached are, obviously, the top ones.
The chance to get 2 has landed in our laps. We just do it.

 

[littlecreatures]

Firstly, my Jones comp was based on his output yesterday, which is what we should be expecting from an elite mid drafted accordingly - eventual output.

It's obvious many don't want us to take any more (even temporary) steps backward. If Battle just wants to leave, we will have little choice. But we can make out well from that undesirable situation. Only the unreasonable (each way) are suggesting otherwise IMO.

If you’re going to base it on his output yesterday (one round of footy), it’s worth noting Zak Jones hasn’t regularly had outputs of 25+ possessions since the 2021 season (3 years ago). I dare say, a young elite mid from the draft will have better upside than playing a good game every couple years.

Our midfield is the worst centre clearance side in the competition and on top of that we’re also the worst team to score from stoppage or centre bounce. To be honest, if it was any other side, Zak Jones wouldn’t even be on the list let alone getting another chance on game day 2 years since he last put a decent game of footy together.

 

[_Maximus_12]

I think there’s been a real shift in the past 5 years where first year kids have come in and had more significant impacts than they have in the past.
Sheezel, Daicos, Reid, McKercher, Rowell, Anderson, Serong, Ashcroft, Wardlaw and Gibney all looked very much at home in year one.

Given the strength of the development pathways, these kids can come in and change the fortunes of their club from day dot. The opportunity to get 2 kids of that ilk in one year is one that should excite

 

[StCicatriz]

2 top 5 draft picks can change the trajectory and fortunes of a club.

See Riewoldt & Kosi
Sheezel & Wardlaw
Franklin & Roughead

To name a few.

Have a look like every clubs list, and where their midfielders were drafted. You’ll notice a correlation between the best mids and their draft picks.

just one of those changes things. which is my point. but not in the immediate term.

take one from each of those lists and it's enough.

thats the argument made here. 1 not enough. 2 enough.

i do think theres a big difference between a top 3 pick and a top 5 pick now compared to say 20 years ago.

 

[Desperate saint]

That retort makes absolutely zero sense at all. Every coach & club wants to be as competitive as they can... you're moaning about a strategy that focuses on the draft.

I'm still trying to work out what you're arguing about TBH.

Make Battle the highest paid player in the league & finish 9th for the next decade? Is that your grand plan?

Battle has a say in this -most free agents are offered more elsewhere but choose to stay on a lesser amount

 

[StCicatriz]

Of course not. But we have to get some more young mids in sometime. Especially as we appear to be running out of those we’ve got with Crouch with a dubious knee and Jones possibly on the way out.

So why not now when we have a chance to potentially get 2? What are we waiting for - Tassie to come in? Of course they’ll take a little time - they pretty much always do - but we need more than one a year if we’re actually going to start going anywhere. Yes you can fluke some later in the draft but the best picks with hopefully the least risk attached are, obviously, the top ones.
The chance to get 2 has landed in our laps. We just do it.

my hope is we can get them with the draft hand we already have without having to sell off players to get them

 

[Yawkey way]

If SOS is going to pick in Carlton's bin make it Binns.

I liked him in his draft year and have been banging on about him ever since. He won Carlton’s vfl b&f but barely got a look in. Same thing this year, there’s just no future for him at the blues with the hollands and the camporeale twins on the way. I believe he has another year on his contract but he’s a stingrays boy we should be all over him.

He went at pick 32 so we’d need to have an early third you’d think. I’m not sure carlton will trade him but from our side if we rate him nows the time to push hard. You know how this works, like Flanders if he starts getting games and shows a bit that’s it no chance.

 

[gringo2011]

This argument has more holes than cartoon cheese.

It could easily be said that we don’t have a side good enough to win those games.

The balanced view would be that we should have won 50% of those games. In which case we are where most fans thought. Stuck in 7-8th with a huge battle on our hands to make the 8 as it’s so bloody close.

So, we aren’t good enough to contend but good enough to fight for the right to be bent over week 1 of September action again.

You and others might enjoy saying we made finals.

But man I want to feel like we are good enough to win the ****ing thing again.

The problem with that is that by the time we get these kids stepping up there is the bulk of our best players ready to retire so we should be ready to drop down the ladder and draft again. This season a shit side could win a flag just by staying fit. There needs to be a timeframe and an end goal. At the moment it seems to be come good when Max King Is late 20s and maybe play finals but maybe bottom out. The club needs to articulate a plan because right now the club is just pissing people off. When all you’ve got is losing players to win drafting it’s not good enough. Bassat needs to put his head on the line and sell us a dream because right now we are pissing away our future on the pokies hoping to be a millionaire.