List Mgmt. 2024 Trade Thread - No.1

[gringo2011]

I think there’s been a real shift in the past 5 years where first year kids have come in and had more significant impacts than they have in the past.
Sheezel, Daicos, Reid, McKercher, Rowell, Anderson, Serong, Ashcroft, Wardlaw and Gibney all looked very much at home in year one.

Given the strength of the development pathways, these kids can come in and change the fortunes of their club from day dot. The opportunity to get 2 kids of that ilk in one year is one that should excite

It depends on the draft and you only need to take Stephens , McAsey or Hunter Clark for the whole plan to end up a disaster.

 

[gringo2011]

If you’re going to base it on his output yesterday (one round of footy), it’s worth noting Zak Jones hasn’t regularly had outputs of 25+ possessions since the 2021 season (3 years ago). I dare say, a young elite mid from the draft will have better upside than playing a good game every couple years.

Our midfield is the worst centre clearance side in the competition and on top of that we’re also the worst team to score from stoppage or centre bounce. To be honest, if it was any other side, Zak Jones wouldn’t even be on the list let alone getting another chance on game day 2 years since he last put a decent game of footy together.

If Crouch or Dow had stayed fit that probably looks completely different.

 

[akaifu]

If Battle leaves, whatever we get, we won't be as good in Round 1 2025 as if we still had Battle.

With this comment you clearly don't understand the reasoning behind letting Battle go

Letting Battle go is supposed to be taking a step back in the short term in order to supplement improvement in the long-term. Yes, we will be worse off Round 1 2025, but what about in 2-3 years when we are actually planning on making finals and challenging? Sure, you can argue that "a pick 5 isn't guaranteed to succeed", but if we keep Battle on objectively overs money, how is that supposed to benefit us long-term especially when overpaying players has literally never worked for any club? It also inhibits the development of the likes of Arie, McLennan, Hastie, Keeler who are all supposed to be close to or in our best 23 come our flag tilt

Your point in playing Jones over a pick 5 midfielder just to overpay Battle doesn't help us in the slightest. If Jones was 25 and close to his prime, then you'd have a fair argument, but he's 29 and most likely won't be in our next flag side so what is the point in playing him over a kid that actually has a chance in taking us to long-term sustained success? What is the point in overpaying a third tall defender who isn't close to being elite, isn't close to being a defining figure in out next flag tilt whether it'd be through leadership, culture or on-field impact, and isn't close to being a unique player that is irreplaceable? It's a midfielders' draft this year, which is the one missing piece to our list going into the next decade so you'd be silly to pass up this opportunity only to do something that's in itself, detrimental to our list

2025 was never supposed to be a year where we would be going hard for the cup ever since RTB came in, it was always one more year of development into the kids before loading up in free agency and going hard in 2026 and sustaining that success for as long as possible

 

[akaifu]

his point is that whilst a top end draftee will be better in the long run if he works out, its going to take time for him to get there and there will be a short term hit to the performance of the side with the lose of battle even with the acquisition of top end draft talent.

Who cares if there's a short term hit to performance? Andrew Bassett has emphasised repeatedly that the vision is long-term - set up a squad that will be around for the next decade with high potential to lead us to sustained success. If you guys have listened to a word that has come out of Bassett's mouth, you'd understand that we are building toward long-term sustained success

It would be nice if Battle could be a part of this, but he is the one that wants to choose money and childhood loyalty over what we are building here at the Saints. There is no way we should be overpaying him when he isn't close to an irreplaceable and defining cog of our 'refresh', especially since there are sooo many ways to replace him and that our compensation is one of the missing pieces to our list build - a star midfielder - which IS something that is a dime in a dozen. It'd be a repeat of what Collingwood did with Grundy and Treloar. It has the potential to destroy our list, especially when the AFL aren't handing us stars like Daicos, Moore and Quaynor, which is the only reason why Collingwood won a premiership (along with McRae)

 

[_Maximus_12]

The problem with that is that by the time we get these kids stepping up there is the bulk of our best players ready to retire so we should be ready to drop down the ladder and draft again. This season a shit side could win a flag just by staying fit. There needs to be a timeframe and an end goal. At the moment it seems to be come good when Max King Is late 20s and maybe play finals but maybe bottom out. The club needs to articulate a plan because right now the club is just pissing people off. When all you’ve got is losing players to win drafting it’s not good enough. Bassat needs to put his head on the line and sell us a dream because right now we are pissing away our future on the pokies hoping to be a millionaire.

Did you miss the part where Ross has repeatedly referenced building around a core of NWM, Windy, Owens, Pou, King etc…
Aligns with what you’ve just said.

 

[_Maximus_12]

just one of those changes things. which is my point. but not in the immediate term.

take one from each of those lists and it's enough.

thats the argument made here. 1 not enough. 2 enough.

i do think theres a big difference between a top 3 pick and a top 5 pick now compared to say 20 years ago.

So, you’d rather just have one chance at getting a player of that ilk which leaves no margin for error?

 

[Rogue Warrior]

just one of those changes things. which is my point. but not in the immediate term.

take one from each of those lists and it's enough.

thats the argument made here. 1 not enough. 2 enough.

i do think theres a big difference between a top 3 pick and a top 5 pick now compared to say 20 years ago.

While it is feasible that losing Battle could hold us back in the short-term. Grabbing 2 elite mids in the draft, gives us the opportunity to transform our midfield in the space of 1 draft. Call it optimism but if Pou heads in the direction we have seen glimpses of and we nail our first 2 picks, in a midfielders draft, we could set up our midfield for the next 10 years.

As for us losing players off the back of a couple of years out of finals: Firstly, given how even the competition is I’m not convinced we couldn’t challenge for finals next year, given the strong senior crop we have. And even if we did, having elite kids coming through has proven to build optimism and belief among fans and within the playing group. While we’re not going to end up like North, it’s easy to see the impact of a few elite kids coming through at the same time has had for their retention.

Lastly, as was mentioned above draftees and especially midfielders, come into the system a lot more developed and ready to have an impact than 10+ years ago.

 

[akaifu]

the first sentence is true, but he's also been very vocal about having a dual narrative and the need to be competitive and that we still want to play finals.

If you haven't twigged that is the plan then maybe you need to find a new hobby for the next few seasons.

Being "competitive and playing finals" is a completely different prospect to sustained premiership success

Of course every club wants to play finals every year, but in our case, although we say we want to play finals with this dual narrative, deep down it isn't an issue if we miss. Sometimes decisions have to be made that favour one side of the narrative more than the other. Which side would you prioritise?

 

[akaifu]

If North Melbourne kept Ben McKay

32

Ben Mckay

Age

26

Ht

202cm

Wt

104kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.5

2star

K

3.7

1star

HB

3.8

3star

M

2.7

3star

T

1.7

4star

MG

77.2

1star

D

7.5

2star

K

4.5

2star

HB

3.0

2star

M

2.5

3star

T

1.5

2star

MG

88.5

2star

D

7.0

2star

K

3.4

2star

HB

3.6

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

2.0

4star

MG

67.8

1star

, they wouldn't have received pick 4 and they wouldn't have drafted Zane Duursma, who looks like a key part of their next tilt

To those of you who are hellbent on keeping Battle, did North Melbourne make the right decision for their future or did they screw it up like how apparently losing Battle would screw up St Kilda's list?

 

[sammm]

Premiership clubs don't throw away good CHBs for the lure of picks.

They back their recruiters to find the players with the picks they have and retain the essential parts of their list.

You can't easily replace players like battle. All you'll end up doing is trading a first round pick to get one again in 3 years time or you go without.

We are being seduced by a pick. Like its the magic tonic that will net an elite mid and turn everything around.

It's not as if we can match it. The fans are just trying to be practical in the end it's up to Josh whether he wants ro stay. And based on most past experiences, if a player says waiting until end of year it means he goes.

 

[Moral Decay]

I think there's been a lack a remembrance on this thread, how have we gone when trading for mids. We were all sure we had Dusty and Fyfe and Jelly Kelly and Treloar, and of course we didn't get them, we did get Steele and Hill and Hanners and Crouch. If we had any shot at Taranto we didn't see it. The truth is the big names won't go to clubs that can't be sold as premiership hopes. We won't get Bailey Smith

6

Bailey Smith

Age

23

Ht

185cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.3

5star

K

8.5

3star

HB

9.8

5star

M

2.3

2star

T

3.8

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

19.8

5star

K

9.6

4star

HB

10.2

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.2

4star

CL

3.2

4star

D

14.8

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

7.2

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

3.4

5star

CL

1.6

4star

either

When they do change clubs they like to see the apres football money too, Geelong, Essendon, Carlton and Hawks have us well covered.

The free agents we can get can be good footballers but when we are as thin in the mids as we are we really do need top grade and three or four of them. look at the Dogs or Freo, it's not one or two. So the urgency to get top midfielders gets stronger with every passing year, when the pool we get to pick from includes Stocker and Dow and Jones, Damn we need to invest in kids and we need to make sure we do.

If we get close, ie a semi or better for 2 or 3 years, free agents will want to come but untill then.........

 

[akaifu]

Mitch Cleary saying on Tradies podcast that if we were to take on Clayton Oliver

13

Clayton Oliver

Age

27

Ht

189cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

27.8

5star

K

9.5

4star

HB

18.4

5star

M

3.2

3star

T

6.3

5star

CL

6.3

5star

D

25.1

5star

K

11.1

4star

HB

14.0

5star

M

3.6

4star

T

5.6

5star

CL

5.9

5star

D

19.2

5star

K

4.6

2star

HB

14.6

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

4.4

5star

CL

3.8

5star

's 6-year contract with $1mil/year, we wouldn't have to give up a top 10 pick

 

[stavro#4]

The problem with that is that by the time we get these kids stepping up there is the bulk of our best players ready to retire so we should be ready to drop down the ladder and draft again. This season a shit side could win a flag just by staying fit. There needs to be a timeframe and an end goal. At the moment it seems to be come good when Max King Is late 20s and maybe play finals but maybe bottom out. The club needs to articulate a plan because right now the club is just pissing people off. When all you’ve got is losing players to win drafting it’s not good enough. Bassat needs to put his head on the line and sell us a dream because right now we are pissing away our future on the pokies hoping to be a millionaire.

I told you months ago - who the club saw as its core.

You got shitty at that.

The club have since spoken about it publicly.

Below is your answer to your timeline

Did you miss the part where Ross has repeatedly referenced building around a core of NWM, Windy, Owens, Pou, King etc…
Aligns with what you’ve just said.

Not Steele. Not Wilkie. Not sincs. Not Marshall.

If they are there then great. But they aren’t the core

 

[stavro#4]

Mitch Cleary saying on Tradies podcast that if we were to take on Clayton Oliver's 6-year contract with $1mil/year, we wouldn't have to give up a top 10 pick

And what would they give us for the pleasure of the leagues worst contract.

 

[StCicatriz]

Who cares if there's a short term hit to performance? Andrew Bassett has emphasised repeatedly that the vision is long-term - set up a squad that will be around for the next decade with high potential to lead us to sustained success. If you guys have listened to a word that has come out of Bassett's mouth, you'd understand that we are building toward long-term sustained success

It would be nice if Battle could be a part of this, but he is the one that wants to choose money and childhood loyalty over what we are building here at the Saints. There is no way we should be overpaying him when he isn't close to an irreplaceable and defining cog of our 'refresh', especially since there are sooo many ways to replace him and that our compensation is one of the missing pieces to our list build - a star midfielder - which IS something that is a dime in a dozen. It'd be a repeat of what Collingwood did with Grundy and Treloar. It has the potential to destroy our list, especially when the AFL aren't handing us stars like Daicos, Moore and Quaynor, which is the only reason why Collingwood won a premiership (along with McRae)

they've also stated they're looking to play finals and there is a dual narrative happening

 

[StCicatriz]

Mitch Cleary saying on Tradies podcast that if we were to take on Clayton Oliver's 6-year contract with $1mil/year, we wouldn't have to give up a top 10 pick

this i get. olivers contract is looking like an absolute shocker and the off-field issues are very real. i'd stay away.

 

[_Maximus_12]

And what would they give us for the pleasure of the leagues worst contract.

I’d nearly give up a second rounder. I wouldn’t think twice if we were in the window.
He’s a manic trainer, he’ll get back to his best footy… but will he keep a low enough profile to start on the park.
Funnily enough I think Ross would nearly be the right person to get the best out of him.

 

[StCicatriz]

Being "competitive and playing finals" is a completely different prospect to sustained premiership success

Of course every club wants to play finals every year, but in our case, although we say we want to play finals with this dual narrative, deep down it isn't an issue if we miss. Sometimes decisions have to be made that favour one side of the narrative more than the other. Which side would you prioritise?

i think we can do both sides of this dual narrative without selling off players. i understand releasing players like gresham, billings etc. as they're flankers. they're never going to be part of the spine or engine room. they're also playing the positions you would start young and upcoming mids in.

battle is a KPP talent. i'd retain them especially for 200k a year difference. i'd maintain the core parts of the best 22 and take the draft hand you have. so i'd retain him.

i wouldn't trade a first rounder for a player unless its something elite think mccluggage. i wouldn't push back a current first rounder in say this years draft by trading into a future draft. as it's just going to delay the development.

stay the course. keep pushing ahead with what we are doing without taking massive risks around the best 22.

 

[BrutThough]

If Battle is worth close to a mil a season for saving 2-4 goals, Cal Wilkie will be the highest paid player in the league.

That's one of the reasons I am fine with Battle leaving - he doesn't warrant being paid more than Wilkie. Or Sinclair if we are comparing with the entire back 6.

 

[stavro#4]

I’d nearly give up a second rounder. I wouldn’t think twice if we were in the window.
He’s a manic trainer, he’ll get back to his best footy… but will he keep a low enough profile to start on the park.
Funnily enough I think Ross would nearly be the right person to get the best out of him.

I’d give them our second rounder for their first and Oliver.

Ain’t no way I’m touching that ticking bomb for another 6 years and he owed millions without atleast getting a first rounder back


He absolutely hamstrings their cap.

 

[StCicatriz]

So, you’d rather just have one chance at getting a player of that ilk which leaves no margin for error?

are you worried about a margin of error here with a top 5 pick?

 

[StCicatriz]

I’d give them our second rounder for their first and Oliver.

Ain’t no way I’m touching that ticking bomb for another 6 years and he owed millions without atleast getting a first rounder back


He absolutely hamstrings their cap.

there's also an element of if keeping him there does more damage to the dees. why wouldn't you want a club who's looking to play final be held back by something like that.

i'd rather they live with that problem moving fwd and not us.

 

[StCicatriz]

I think there's been a lack a remembrance on this thread, how have we gone when trading for mids. We were all sure we had Dusty and Fyfe and Jelly Kelly and Treloar, and of course we didn't get them, we did get Steele and Hill and Hanners and Crouch. If we had any shot at Taranto we didn't see it. The truth is the big names won't go to clubs that can't be sold as premiership hopes. We won't get Bailey Smith either

When they do change clubs they like to see the apres football money too, Geelong, Essendon, Carlton and Hawks have us well covered.

The free agents we can get can be good footballers but when we are as thin in the mids as we are we really do need top grade and three or four of them. look at the Dogs or Freo, it's not one or two. So the urgency to get top midfielders gets stronger with every passing year, when the pool we get to pick from includes Stocker and Dow and Jones, Damn we need to invest in kids and we need to make sure we do.

If we get close, ie a semi or better for 2 or 3 years, free agents will want to come but untill then.........

we had a good shot at taranto... maybe we still are?

 

[stavro#4]

there's also an element of if keeping him there does more damage to the dees. why wouldn't you want a club who's looking to play final be held back by something like that.

i'd rather they live with that problem moving fwd and not us.

On the basis he gets close to his previous form. He is a top 10 midfielder in this league.

No preseason. Injury. Unhappiness. Lots of potential mitigating factors as to why he is performing poorly.

That contract is a ticking time bomb.

I’m happy to take the risk - if we get the dees first pick. Because there is every chance that pick outlasts Oliver.

 

[StCicatriz]

On the basis he gets close to his previous form. He is a top 10 midfielder in this league.

No preseason. Injury. Unhappiness. Lots of potential mitigating factors as to why he is performing poorly.

That contract is a ticking time bomb.

I’m happy to take the risk - if we get the dees first pick. Because there is every chance that pick outlasts Oliver.

i'd do the pick in a salary dump but i'd want an honest assessment on if his behaviour could impact the younger guys coming through

i don't know if dees fans would be ok with their club doing it