List Mgmt. 2024 Trade Thread - No.1

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This is the thing though. The system isn't fair. You have two choices, give up or work harder and get more creative. The sides that bottom out hard have rarely been the best sides. Hawks are probably the exception when they dropped down to get priority picks but Richmond had been shit around that time and drafted badly.

Your list management and development staff are the most important in a rebuilding side. GWS and Carlton wasted years of top picks at drafts before getting it right and then seemed to find talent everywhere from worse positions on the ladder. Also need to look at age balance. experience, leadership and system to see how far they can go.

Start up clubs lack experience, leadership and culture. That means they struggle to maximise talent and kids develop slower.

I'd say Lyon has a good system and his game plan should stand up in finals even if a little dated. We have a good older crew to lead culture but probably lack some assertive leader types. Then we just ned to fill some holes in the list and hope that out talent identification and development are up to standard.
Look, I'm a "the answer must be within" guy. But I am not a "just grab from one basket guy". We get draft picks every year, and we need to maximise the return. That can be through someone like Phillipou falling, or trading into a better position.

While I think a select few on here are "show Battle the door" because of the possible return, most are "make the best of a bad situation". If Battle decides to leave there is nothing we can do about it at this stage. Sounds like he is truly conflicted. But if we took a Battle compensation pick and drafted the next Battle with it, we have rocks in our head. That would just be eight years of development down the drain. Everyone knows we need midfielders. What if Caleb Serong was available for pick 5+6? That's why I don't care for the ideologues around here - there is an established player in the league who would fill our needs who would be worth picks 5+6. Maybe not Serong but somebody. Bont? Cripps? Just saying.

Brisbane are flying and we set up poorly on the weekend, it got away from us and Brisbane got every break. But it's one game. We've been solid to good otherwise since the break.

My point: take every opportunity on its merits. Full youth leads to a decade of misery on field, which I think we are uniquely poorly positioned to weather in the current climate (and with a notoriously fickle fan base). There is enough talent at the club to build on, green shoots in terms of game style and we have some depth. Make decisions coolly and rationally.
 
We’re not selling everyone off, we’re just letting a high-quality role player go for way over his worth in the perfect draft to bolster a gaping hole in our list

My view is that Lalor and Draper should not be expected to be key parts of our next premiership charge, but neither would Battle - an Arie or Keeler or Caminiti could improve to just as good as he is within the next 2 years as the entire team continues its development

The draftees would act as a 2009 Selwood type where the kids are good role players without breaking any games open yet

Your scenario is to go all in on the next 3 years. Make or break. Gringo, I can absolutely guarantee you, if we don’t achieve anything during this period (which is highly likely considering Hawthorn, Brisbane, Carlton etc), we are finished for 10 years. We would have missed 3 quality drafts, then gone back to the drawing board WHILE Tassie completely compromise the draft, leaving us with nothing to rebuild with


We are if we **** up your plan too. We can't find players like Battle easily. If we go and pay up picks top get Butts types it's really just moving things around. If Lalor or Draper end up Clark or Coffield we are further away from where we started.

Commercially the club is ****ed if Lyon takes us backwards. Hitting a recession with no hope for years would be catastrophic.
 

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Nah, just saying that he should be under the pump. Probably should go before he wrecks the list if he doesn't want to move forward though. We aren't his retirement package.

I think he's as good an option as any but if he doesn't want success soon we need to cut him before he sends us back to the bottom. I like Ross but I'm not in the cult. He's just staff and if he doesn't perform he's held to exactly the same standards as anyone else. His past doesn't buy him time.
Cutting someone because he doesn't want instant success is exactly what St.Kilda do though.

Ross and Basset have clearly had discussions before joining forces about doing this slow, deliberately and correctly. Instead of just rushing out and getting some more Zak Jones' onto the list.
 
Nah, just saying that he should be under the pump. Probably should go before he wrecks the list if he doesn't want to move forward though. We aren't his retirement package.

I think he's as good an option as any but if he doesn't want success soon we need to cut him before he sends us back to the bottom. I like Ross but I'm not in the cult. He's just staff and if he doesn't perform he's held to exactly the same standards as anyone else. His past doesn't buy him time.
I respect your opinions, they just don't really make sense. We've been waiting near on 60 years. We finally seem to have a president that actually CARES about the success of the club and not the individual status of being an AFL Club president. We have a coach that genuinely seems to CARE about the club & wants to bring in success.

Going out and trying to rush this process by signing some over senior flops like Zak Jones or Shiel or not taking a big offer for someone like Steele in a bid to get even MORE talent added to our under 25 brigade is EXACTLY what St.Kilda does.

This is a new era. Ross and Basset aren't going to rush anything. They're building a list and platform to build a successful club long into the future, not for a sugar hit for 18 months. Why is that so hard to understand?
 
We are if we **** up your plan too. We can't find players like Battle easily. If we go and pay up picks top get Butts types it's really just moving things around. If Lalor or Draper end up Clark or Coffield we are further away from where we started.

Commercially the club is ****ed if Lyon takes us backwards. Hitting a recession with no hope for years would be catastrophic.
What is the likelihood of my plan failing compared to yours? Yours has a 3 year window before everything is almost guaranteed to go to shit for at least 5 years. Guaranteed

I didn’t say we had to go pay for Butts types, I’m saying if we don’t have faith in Arie etc to step up then we can, and we can afford to. We have Cole Hofmann and Peckett coming through, alongside the 2 top 10s assuming Battle leaves. Plus the Sandy rookie. That’s already 6 draftees, before we even think about trades such as Paton Membrey etc. Our list space is already bulging

Yes, Lalor and Draper could end up fails, but didn’t you just say:
If we do it's because players already in our under 22 bracket come on and we draft well. I'd be chasing some depth as well for now. We need mids mostly. Macrae and Parker, Lyons anyone who can bolster us. If we sell everyone off what do we end up with. say we get Lalor and Draper. When do we start to challenge?
So whether it’s your strategy or mine, both require that we draft well
 
Your list management and development staff are the most important in a rebuilding side. GWS and Carlton wasted years of top picks at drafts before getting it right and then seemed to find talent everywhere from worse positions on the ladder.
They would both have 10+ top 15 picks on their list of close to.

Carlton were literally dogshit for years but they kept trying to get in more picks and then what do you know..

Cripps, Curnow, Walsh, McKay, Weitering etc all start hitting their prime and then some draft/free agency targets want to join in - Cerra, Saad, Hollands, Hewett, Newman, Martin, McGov.

Our under 25 squad is literally elite. there's 5-6 that could genuinely become A-Graders. Lets just stack the deck in our favour and keep adding to that.
 
What is the likelihood of my plan failing compared to yours? Yours has a 3 year window before everything is almost guaranteed to go to shit for at least 5 years. Guaranteed

I didn’t say we had to go pay for Butts types, I’m saying if we don’t have faith in Arie etc to step up then we can, and we can afford to. We have Cole Hofmann and Peckett coming through, alongside the 2 top 10s assuming Battle leaves. Plus the Sandy rookie. That’s already 6 draftees, before we even think about trades such as Paton Membrey etc. Our list space is already bulging

Yes, Lalor and Draper could end up fails, but didn’t you just say:

So whether it’s your strategy or mine, both require that we draft well
Agreed. Also on Battle, I love him, great player but it would be crazy to want to pay him $1m a year.

Look around the league, you can find intercepting third defenders everywhere, half the time they are failed forwards at a second club.
 
We are if we **** up your plan too. We can't find players like Battle easily. If we go and pay up picks top get Butts types it's really just moving things around. If Lalor or Draper end up Clark or Coffield we are further away from where we started.

Commercially the club is ****ed if Lyon takes us backwards. Hitting a recession with no hope for years would be catastrophic.

This is emotive.

Battles decision is Battles to make, all the club can do is make it as comfortable as possible to gear him to stay, whilst other tries to woo him elsewhere, but as a UFA: it remains his decision.

Might suck, might be great, might middle, will mean SFA to overall commercial success.

What will really drive that is projection, how do we as a club project ourselves to those partners, and ever since Summers+Finnis that has been growing, and they have been making fine decisions to allow us to do things.

So if Lyon moves on, we shake up the footy dept again, Battle leaves, AFL is a fluid business model, things change all the time, but none of that matters commercially since someone else will always fill those roles.

Footy dept might just be "stuck" as it was previously, just with the same people moving around ala Sexton to plug gaps.
 
Signing Crouch over Caldwell is another example of aiming for the 2-3 year window instead of the 10-forever style Geelong window.

4 seasons in and Crouch is cooked, our midfield is still terrible and Caldwell is just coming into his own in year 6.

With career high averages in
Disposals
marks
tackles
clearances

Essendon have 6-8+ more years of Caldwell and we've got to find a Crouch replacement.

Terrible decision
 
I mean, we all realise that a significant section of the membership will be considering not renewing if we sign Tarryn Thomas?

Oliver is a massive risk, but not so much a reputational risk. Thomas will have long-time members turning their backs. That's how it will be, regardless of whether one thinks it's proof the world has gone too "woke".
As someone else said, this is where we are at so far as desperation to acquire talent.
Personally I'm not in favour of either. Mistakes are part of being human, but in their cases it boils down to one simple ethos. You can't fix stoopid. Oliver in particular.
 
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He won’t be traded but we need to stop casting ming as a superstar, he’s not and may never be anything more than a good player who’s very good on his day.

The days of guys kicking 100 goals a year are gone we need more options and a greater spread of goal kickers. The players in that set up need to compliment each other, apply pressure, lay tackles, bring the ball to the ground.

Ming hasn’t had a great run at it with injuries but he has a lot he needs to work on imo.

If only he would learn to lead and defend.

Just needs a good run injury wise & this debate will be confined to the 'did we ever actually discuss trading Max' bin.

Get some decent mids in front of him & all of a sudden you'll see a different player too.
 

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Signing Crouch over Caldwell is another example of aiming for the 2-3 year window instead of the 10-forever style Geelong window.

4 seasons in and Crouch is cooked, our midfield is still terrible and Caldwell is just coming into his own in year 6.

With career high averages in
Disposals
marks
tackles
clearances

Essendon have 6-8+ more years of Caldwell and we've got to find a Crouch replacement.

Terrible decision
That's a recent one that is really starting to bite.

I wouldn't be surprised if that was one of the deals that Ross reportedly lost his shit over when he came back to the club.

There was zero reason why we couldn't have got both Crouch & Caldwell in either.
 
As someone else said, this is where we are at so far as desperation to acquire talent.
Personally I'm not in favour of either. Mistakes are oart of being human, but in their cases it boils down to one simple ethos. You can't fix stoopid. Oliver in particular.

Let's be clear: I'm not advocating trading for Oliver here. I'm just saying that acquiring Thomas is entirely different. It would cause the club huge problems with a percentage of the fan base. Oliver would not.
 
He won’t be traded but we need to stop casting ming as a superstar, he’s not and may never be anything more than a good player who’s very good on his day.

The days of guys kicking 100 goals a year are gone we need more options and a greater spread of goal kickers. The players in that set up need to compliment each other, apply pressure, lay tackles, bring the ball to the ground.

Ming hasn’t had a great run at it with injuries but he has a lot he needs to work on imo.
Sure, there are some things Max can work on (leading patterns, body language, accuracy) and there are some things the club can work on things to make his life easier for him (mids that can kick, better ball movement & another actual decent tall forward to help take the heat off him and protect him)

But how quickly people forget how talented this man is.

2020 kicked 22.20 (18 games)
2021 kicked 38.30 (20 games)
2022 kicked 52.41 (22 games)
2023 kicked 28.12 (11 games)
2024 kicked 19.12 (12 games)


Nearly 100 shots at goal in just year 3 is insanity.

If we see Pou break out of the middle and hit Max on the chest a few times early next season, we're going to see him full of confidence when it comes to leading to the ball (instead of expecting Seb to miss him by 20m) and it's going to be OVER for the comp.
 
As someone else said, this is where we are at so far as desperation to acquire talent.
Personally I'm not in favour of either. Mistakes are oart of being human, but in their cases it boils down to one simple ethos. You can't fix stoopid. Oliver in particular.

My view being someone like TT makes a decision to be that shit bloke.
Oliver, I can't really level the same claims since as one with health BS, sometimes you just have weak moments and break.

This is different to "I was in a relationship, it ended, and now I'm pissy" for obvious reasons. So whilst yeah optics are shizen in both cases for different reasons, the path there be different.

Also in my view, you can fix the latter, the former is a no go zone as if shit person degrades other people they're not suddenly going to have an epiphany just because you employ them and give them money.
 
Sure, there are some things Max can work on (leading patterns, body language, accuracy) and there are some things the club can work on things to make his life easier for him (mids that can kick, better ball movement & another actual decent tall forward to help take the heat off him and protect him)

But how quickly people forget how talented this man is.

2020 kicked 22.20 (18 games)
2021 kicked 38.30 (20 games)
2022 kicked 52.41 (22 games)
2023 kicked 28.12 (11 games)
2024 kicked 19.12 (12 games)


Nearly 100 shots at goal in just year 3 is insanity.

If we see Pou break out of the middle and hit Max on the chest a few times early next season, we're going to see him full of confidence when it comes to leading to the ball (instead of expecting Seb to miss him by 20m) and it's going to be OVER for the comp.

Max actually had 106 shots at goal in 2022. Because he also kicked a bunch out on the full
 
Sure, there are some things Max can work on (leading patterns, body language, accuracy) and there are some things the club can work on things to make his life easier for him (mids that can kick, better ball movement & another actual decent tall forward to help take the heat off him and protect him)

But how quickly people forget how talented this man is.

2020 kicked 22.20 (18 games)
2021 kicked 38.30 (20 games)
2022 kicked 52.41 (22 games)
2023 kicked 28.12 (11 games)
2024 kicked 19.12 (12 games)


Nearly 100 shots at goal in just year 3 is insanity.

If we see Pou break out of the middle and hit Max on the chest a few times early next season, we're going to see him full of confidence when it comes to leading to the ball (instead of expecting Seb to miss him by 20m) and it's going to be OVER for the comp.

<eyeroll emoji>

More likely to be some others at the club who get free passes than Seb...
 
Agreed. Also on Battle, I love him, great player but it would be crazy to want to pay him $1m a year.

Look around the league, you can find intercepting third defenders everywhere, half the time they are failed forwards at a second club.
Yep, and we literally have a stack of replacements for him at the club already. Arie, Caminiti, Cole, Keeler can all play there
 
Signing Crouch over Caldwell is another example of aiming for the 2-3 year window instead of the 10-forever style Geelong window.

4 seasons in and Crouch is cooked, our midfield is still terrible and Caldwell is just coming into his own in year 6.

With career high averages in
Disposals
marks
tackles
clearances

Essendon have 6-8+ more years of Caldwell and we've got to find a Crouch replacement.

Terrible decision
I thought we were trying to get both?

And wouldn't that have been a great decision given Caldwell just hitting his straps as Crouch seemingly finishes up prematurely......
 
I thought we were trying to get both?

And wouldn't that have been a great decision given Caldwell just hitting his straps as Crouch seemingly finishes up prematurely......
If Caldwell played for us he would’ve broken out 2 years ago. We would’ve played him full time mid and he would’ve thrived

Essendon have wasted him at half forward ever since they got him
 
Rtb missed a massive coaching opportunity with Max out for the season.
I would have had him in the coaching box every game giving and asking for advice and letting him soak up fwd tactical plays from Harves and co.
Observing the strengths and weaknesses of the oppo and Saints forwards.
It’s a good way to learn.
 
If Caldwell played for us he would’ve broken out 2 years ago. We would’ve played him full time mid and he would’ve thrived

Essendon have wasted him at half forward ever since they got him
If Caldwell played for us, you just hope he would have broken out 2 years ago.

No one knows what his career and output would have been, and it's dumb to pretend otherwise.
 
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