List Mgmt. 2025 List Mismanagement and Trading

[Coopers]

Oddly with the off season recruiting... we have a LOT of depth.

I hope it's not the depth that all just kinda ends up being B grade depth. Like, we have 32+ players that I could legitimately see in the starting 22 by end of year. More, even.

Hopefully they all come on a bit, that will help. But what we really need is some of those to really become A graders. Even truly elite in their roles. If we find 5 or more... look out.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Yes? Average senior players and big list of young talented players.

Better midfield talents in 2012.

Sloane > Soligo
Dangerfield > Rankine
Walker, Tippett > Thilthorpe, Fogarty
Smith > Hinge/Cumming
Talia > Murray/Butts

You see this is the issue ....you name 5-6 players as defining list quality ...I'm talking the depth of players capable of being "A" graders

So Smith is better than 4 combined players; Hinge, Worrell, Milera, and Cumming ? ......you've named one player, I named 4 players who are just as good, if not better

OK ....now add into that midfield mix Dawson & Curtin

Now add these names:
Rachele
Keays
Pedlar
Michalleney
Worrell
Keane
Zac Taylor
#4 this year

I'm talking depth, not the pointy end of the list, that every Club has covered ....we've had some of the AFL's best players, but you could never say we batted deep

In the above, I've left out Crouch, Berry, Peatling, ANB, Cook, and Edwards

 

[119others]

And before someone says our 2014 list wasn't a "high potential" list...

Dangerfield had played fewer games than Dawson
Eddie Betts was younger than Ben Keays
Walker was younger than Fogarty

And we had the following players on less than 100 games, which included seven future All Australians:

Jacobs
Sloane
Walker
Talia
Smith
Lynch
Jenkins
Laird
B. Crouch
M. Crouch
Lyons
Cameron

And this squad failed to make finals by the way. We made finals the following year (equivalent of 2026 for our current squad) and a grand final four years later (equivalent of 2028)

Just shows the combo of Noble and Hamish really nailed some crappy picks and also exceptional trades:

Jacobs - pick 40 ish from memory
Lynch - gave up bugger all
Laird - rookie (Rendell from memory)
Lyons - 3rd or 4th rounder
JJ - 10 pick downgrade in a draft only (32->42 from memory)
CC - rookie pick that posters went bunta when picked as nobody had ever heard of him
M Crouch - shipped out Vince to get. Win win

Earlier with Rendell, Sloane (mid 40’s) and Walker as NSW scholarship kid

Basically that very talented list was heavily built from rejects and late round picks

 

[WaynesWorld19]

If we're talking potential and what each player would become, our 2014 list had:

11x All Australians
5x Multiple All Australians
An 8x All Australian and Brownlow medallist who was the best player in the game for a period
A 600 goal tall forward
A 600 goal small forward
A 400 goal small forward
A 300 goal ruck forward
A 200 goal half forward
8x best and fairest winners
18x All Australian squad of 40 members
14x 200 game players

I don't think 15 A grade players (at their peak) is enough to be our best list when factoring in player potential

You haven't named off any players .....this is a meaningless list

I'm talking the entire list, not simply the pointy end ....which is not a reflection of list quality

 

[WaynesWorld19]

I will as soon as you admit that your original statement was "best ever" and you then deliberately misled by changing it to "one of best ever". Admit it and I'll respond. Not that I need to, you've already retreated from your originally ludicrous position, so you know that we've had better lists during our history.

Just as I thought .....you can't back-up any of your comments with facts

 

[119others]

Even our 1997-98 premiership sides had a lot of duds
But we had a good core of up and coming guns. 21 Year Olds MCleod, Edwards, 20 Year Old Goodwin, 19 Year Johnson.

Guys like Ben Hart and Roo were already champions but only 23. These came to us through our oringial squads that we were able to assemble.

Rehn was only 26. Jarman a gun at 30. Probably our oldest player. We were so young that we should have been up ther for 5-7 years. Ayres got us 11th, 8th and 3rd before falling back down again in 2003 and 2004. 1999-2001 we should have finished higeher

True. And we got MASSIVELY lucky with the timing of our original entry. Arguably the best array of elite young talent coming thru we have ever seen (even better than the fab 4 of Sticks, Bradley, Motely and Plat the Rat a few yrs earlier)

Roo, Hart, Rehn, Smart, Modra, Wellman (Jarman), Groom (McLeod) and friends. Incredible intake which we nailed in the early 90’s

 

[Scorpus]

You haven't named off any players .....this is a meaningless list

I'm talking the entire list, not simply the pointy end ....which is not a reflection of list quality

This was our 2014 list

Above 100 games

Scott Thompson - dual B&F winner and All Australian
Ben Rutten - All Australian and one of our best ever full backs
Eddie Betts - 600 goal small forward, 3xAA
Patrick Dangerfield - 8xAA, Brownlow medallist, best player in the game, had only played 109 games
Brent Reilly - AA40 squad, showing that even our 2014 role players had good seasons at times
Nathan Van Berlo - 200 game ex captain
Richard Douglas - 200 game B&F winner and AA squad member
Jason Porplyzia - AA40 squad member small forward
David Mackay - 200 game player

Below 100 games

Rory Sloane - future All Australian and dual B&F winner, was on 80 games
Taylor Walker - future 600 goal forward and All Australian, was on 70 games
Daniel Talia - future 2xAA and Rising Star, had played 50 games at the time
Rory Laird - future 2xAA, 3x B&F winner, had only played 20 games
Sam Jacobs - multiple AA40 squad ruck, was on 80 games
Brodie Smith - future All Australian, on 50 games
Tom Lynch - future AA40 squad member, 30 games
Josh Jenkins - future AA40 squad member, 300 goal ruck forward, 30 games
Brad Crouch - future B&F winner, 15 games
Matt Crouch - future B&F winner and All Australian, 0 games
Charlie Cameron - future 400 goal small forward and 2x All Australian, 0 games
Jarryd Lyons - future AA40 squad member, 12 games

The list included a bunch more 100 game role players including Luke Brown, Matthew Wright, Rory Atkins, Jake Kelly, Kyle Hartigan, Ricky Henderson, Andy Otten - all played less than 100 games up to that point

So we had 7 future All Australians below 100 games on the list in 2014, as well as four B&F winners, 600 and 400 goal forwards. Four of them would play 250 games. And on top of that we had a bunch of role players that would go on to make 100 games

 

[Vader]

I see you've not met the AFC board yet

He should be back in early 2025, so a 12-month injury extension takes him to the end of 2026. At that point he'll be 29.

If he can't make it back from his current injury in 24 months, then he shouldn't have a place on our list in 2027.

 

[Vader]

This was our 2014 list

Above 100 games

Scott Thompson - dual B&F winner and All Australian
Ben Rutten - All Australian and one of our best ever full backs
Eddie Betts - 600 goal small forward, 3xAA
Patrick Dangerfield - 8xAA, Brownlow medallist, best player in the game, had only played 109 games
Brent Reilly - AA40 squad, showing that even our 2014 role players had good seasons at times
Nathan Van Berlo - 200 game ex captain
Richard Douglas - 200 game B&F winner and AA squad member
Jason Porplyzia - AA40 squad member small forward
David Mackay - 200 game player

Below 100 games

Rory Sloane - future All Australian and dual B&F winner, was on 80 games
Taylor Walker - future 600 goal forward and All Australian, was on 70 games
Daniel Talia - future 2xAA and Rising Star, had played 50 games at the time
Rory Laird - future 2xAA, 3x B&F winner, had only played 20 games
Sam Jacobs - multiple AA40 squad ruck, was on 80 games
Brodie Smith - future All Australian, on 50 games
Tom Lynch - future AA40 squad member, 30 games
Josh Jenkins - future AA40 squad member, 300 goal ruck forward, 30 games
Brad Crouch - future B&F winner, 15 games
Matt Crouch - future B&F winner and All Australian, 0 games
Charlie Cameron - future 400 goal small forward and 2x All Australian, 0 games
Jarryd Lyons - future AA40 squad member, 12 games

The list included a bunch more 100 game role players including Luke Brown, Matthew Wright, Rory Atkins, Jake Kelly, Kyle Hartigan, Ricky Henderson, Andy Otten - all played less than 100 games up to that point

So we had 7 future All Australians below 100 games on the list in 2014, as well as four B&F winners, 600 and 400 goal forwards. Four of them would play 250 games. And on top of that we had a bunch of role players that would go on to make 100 games

This is probably the best list we've ever had. Unfortunately, as you pointed out elsewhere, they weren't all peaking at the same time.

 

[Scorpus]

So let's compare for a moment, the 2014 to 2025 equivalents

Best Player In the Game with plenty left to play (Dangerfield) - Dawson (but really not even close)
600 goal, 3xAA experienced small forward (Betts) - ???
B&F and AA winning experienced mid (Thompson) - Laird
All Australian experienced defender (Rutten) - Smith
B&F winner with experience (Douglas) - Crouch
Leadership and experience (Van Berlo) - Neal-Bullen
AA40 experienced role player (Reilly) - ???
200 game role player (Mackay) - Murphy
Handy experienced small forward (Porplyzia) - Keays I guess
??? - Walker

Future All Australian, B&F winning 250 gamer (Sloane) - Rachele?
Future 600 goal All Australian forward (Walker) - Fogarty, though he's 450 goals short right now
Dual AA defender (Talia) - Murray, though Talia was already AA at his age
Dual AA 250 game multiple B&F winning defender/mid (Laird) - Soligo
AA midfielder and B&F winner (M. Crouch) - Pick 4? and remember Crouch was AA in his fourth season
400 goal dual AA small forward (Cameron) - Rankine
300 goal AA40 quality ruck forward (Jenkins) - Thilthorpe, though TT seems better
AA and 250 game half back (Smith) - Curtin? and remember Smith was AA at 22 years old in his fourth season
Multiple AA40 quality ruck (Jacobs) - ???
AA40 quality half forward (Lynch) - ???
B&F winning mid shy of AA quality (B. Crouch) - ???
AA40 quality midfielder (Lyons) - ??? maybe someone like Peatling

At their absolute best you'd hope players like Worrell could sneak into the "AA40" quality type of tier even if there's no direct comparison on our 2014 list

190 game small defender role player (Brown) - ??? I'm not even sure Jones or Milera gets to this level
170 game medium defender role player (Kelly) - Michalanney though clearly Max is better
160 game half back/wing role player (Henderson) - Cumming? though hopefully he's better
140 game full back role player (Hartigan) - Butts? Keane?
140 game forward role player (Wright) - ???
140 game outside mid role player (Atkins) - Sholl?
110 game utility role player (Otten) - Nankervis?

 

[Vader]

So let's compare for a moment, the 2014 to 2025 equivalents

Best Player In the Game with plenty left to play (Dangerfield) - Dawson (but really not even close)
600 goal, 3xAA experienced small forward (Betts) - ???
B&F and AA winning experienced mid (Thompson) - Laird
All Australian experienced defender (Rutten) - Smith
B&F winner with experience (Douglas) - Crouch
Leadership and experience (Van Berlo) - Neal-Bullen
AA40 experienced role player (Reilly) - ???
200 game role player (Mackay) - Murphy
Handy experienced small forward (Porplyzia) - Keays I guess
??? - Walker

Future All Australian 250 gamer (Sloane) - Rankine
Future 600 goal All Australian forward (Walker) - Fogarty, though he's 450 goals short right now
Dual AA defender (Talia) - Murray, though Talia was already AA at his age
Dual AA 250 game multiple B&F winning defender/mid (Laird) - Soligo
AA midfielder and B&F winner (M. Crouch) - Pick 4? and remember Crouch was AA in his fourth season
400 goal dual AA small forward (Cameron) - Rachele?
300 goal AA40 quality ruck forward (Jenkins) - Thilthorpe, though TT seems better
AA and 250 game half back (Smith) - Curtin? and remember Smith was AA at 22 years old in his fourth season
Multiple AA40 quality ruck (Jacobs) - ???
AA40 quality half forward (Lynch) - ???
B&F winning mid shy of AA quality (B. Crouch) - ???
AA40 quality midfielder (Lyons) - ??? maybe someone like Peatling

190 game small defender role player (Brown) - ??? I'm not even sure Jones or Milera gets to this level
170 game medium defender role player (Kelly) - Michalanney though clearly Max is better
160 game half back/wing role player (Henderson) - Cumming? though hopefully he's better
140 game full back role player (Hartigan) - Butts? Keane?
140 game forward role player (Wright) - ???
140 game outside mid role player (Atkins) - Sholl?
110 game utility role player (Otten) - Nankervis?

Rankine is the clear match-up for either Betts or Cameron - probably Cameron - but he can't replace both.

Soligo the Sloane equivalent.

Walker is on both the 2014 & 2025 lists - so surely he just cancels himself out?

 

[Scorpus]

Rankine is the clear match-up for either Betts or Cameron - probably Cameron - but he can't replace both.

He's not Betts because Betts was a 180 game player in 2014, but yeah probably closer to Cameron

It just means Rachele has to project as an All Australian B&F winning 250 game player though

 

[Vader]

He's not Betts because Betts was a 180 game player in 2014, but yeah probably closer to Cameron

It just means Rachele has to project as an All Australian B&F winning 250 game player though

Yeah... no question that Rachele is a million miles off becoming an equivalent replacement for Betts.

 

[1990crow]

You see this is the issue ....you name 5-6 players as defining list quality ...I'm talking the depth of players capable of being "A" graders

So Smith is better than 4 combined players; Hinge, Worrell, Milera, and Cumming ? ......you've named one player, I named 4 players who are just as good, if not better

OK ....now add into that midfield mix Dawson & Curtin

Now add these names:
Rachele
Keays
Pedlar
Michalleney
Worrell
Keane
Zac Taylor
#4 this year

I'm talking depth, not the pointy end of the list, that every Club has covered ....we've had some of the AFL's best players, but you could never say we batted deep

In the above, I've left out Crouch, Berry, Peatling, ANB, Cook, and Edwards

In most premiership teams its the elite talent that wins flags. You can't just ignore 2012 emerging talents on paper is hard to beat.

 

[Samcro24]

In most premiership teams its the elite talent that wins flags. You can't just ignore 2012 emerging talents on paper is hard to beat.

If you’re talking weight of elite talent then our best ever list has to start with a 19.

It contains most of the all time greats, with Tex and Dangerfield really the only two that belong in the same company since.

 

[Scorpus]

In most premiership teams its the elite talent that wins flags. You can't just ignore 2012 emerging talents on paper is hard to beat.

Our 2010 list had McLeod, Goodwin, Edwards, Johncock, Thompson, Rutten, Bock, Dangerfield, Sloane, Walker, Talia, Davis, Gunston, Tippett, Vince, Douglas, Porplyzia, Van Berlo, Burton, Knights

A divide between young and old but wow.

 

[1970crow]

You haven't named off any players .....this is a meaningless list

I'm talking the entire list, not simply the pointy end ....which is not a reflection of list quality

So high end output is not related to list quality? I see you're a Neil Craig disciple that believes all you need is a bunch of well drilled B graders combined with continuity. You, and Neil, are wrong.

 

[1970crow]

Just as I thought .....you can't back-up any of your comments with facts

Why would I need to, you've already done it for me when you changed from "best ever" to "one of the best ever". You're just a little slow on the uptake.

 

[Vader]

In most premiership teams its the elite talent that wins flags. You can't just ignore 2012 emerging talents on paper is hard to beat.

The problem with this is that it's only really possible to judge the quality of "emerging talents" with the benefit of hindsight. We know how good the emerging talent from 2014/15 was, because we know how they turned out over the subsequent decade. We don't know how good the emerging talent on our 2025 list will/could be.

If WW projects that many of our 2025 group will end up being club greats, then who are we to say that he's wrong? Only time will tell, but short of having a TARDIS handy, we have no way of knowing (yet) what time will reveal.

 

[CDC60]

Yeah... no question that Rachele is a million miles off becoming an equivalent replacement for Betts.

Stengle was the replacement for Betts

 

[GreyCrow]

If WW projects that many of our 2025 group will end up being club greats, then who are we to say that he's wrong? Only time will tell, but short of having a TARDIS handy, we have no way of knowing (yet) what time will reveal.

But it's a wank if he doesn't include who he is marking against.

He has said each year our list is great when we finished bottom 5 for most of that time

It's wrong and he is wrong now.

To counter your argument he cannot say how good this list is as he doesn't have a time machine either

 

[George Kramer]

The problem with this is that it's only really possible to judge the quality of "emerging talents" with the benefit of hindsight. We know how good the emerging talent from 2014/15 was, because we know how they turned out over the subsequent decade. We don't know how good the emerging talent on our 2025 list will/could be.

If WW projects that many of our 2025 group will end up being club greats, then who are we to say that he's wrong? Only time will tell, but short of having a TARDIS handy, we have no way of knowing (yet) what time will reveal.

Because he’s wrong about most things

 

[Vader]

But it's a wank if he doesn't include who he is marking against.

He has said each year our list is great when we finished bottom 5 for most of that time

It's wrong and he is wrong now.

To counter your argument he cannot say how good this list is as he doesn't have a time machine either

The fact that we've finished bottom 5 is completely and utterly irrelevant, given that he's basing his judgement of most of the players off their potential - not what they've done to date. Given that most of them are still very early in their careers, that's not unreasonable.

I think he's being more than a little bit optimistic with his potential ratings for many players, but that's just my opinion - and WW is entitled to see things differently, until such time as they are proven otherwise.

 

[GreyCrow]

The fact that we've finished bottom 5 is completely and utterly irrelevant,

Its entirely relevant. Why do you think the 97/98 players are judged as they are? They won flags.

Finishing bottom means the list isnt formed - and yet you go back WW thinks our list each year was great

given that he's basing his judgement of most of the players off their potential -

Potential shomential. Its a value judgement based on nothing at all. You cant on one hand say the list is the best we ever had - and yes he did indeed say that - and on the other hand say '' when it reaches its potential'' thats absolute BS

- and WW is entitled to see things differently, until such time as they are proven otherwise.

He can see them as different as he wants - as is his right. But when he gets called out on it he needs to man up and provide the counter balance and post his list of who he is marking it against

 

[AFC979810]

Oddly with the off season recruiting... we have a LOT of depth.

I hope it's not the depth that all just kinda ends up being B grade depth. Like, we have 32+ players that I could legitimately see in the starting 22 by end of year. More, even.

Hopefully they all come on a bit, that will help. But what we really need is some of those to really become A graders. Even truly elite in their roles. If we find 5 or more... look out.

No we don't. People on this board say this every year.

You are confusing having a lot of average AFL footballers on our list with actual proper depth.