List Mgmt. 2025 List Mismanagement and Trading

[Captain Furious]

This discussion about best list gave me a good laugh. We're saying the list that just finished bottom 4 and added 3 mid range players can now be spoken about in the same breath as the lists that won flags, made prelims and grand finals. Recency bias at its most absurd.

The 2005/06 team would beat the current one by 20 goals. They had 4 A graders just in the midfield, we have 2 on the entire list.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

This was our 2014 list

Above 100 games

Scott Thompson - dual B&F winner and All Australian
Ben Rutten - All Australian and one of our best ever full backs
Eddie Betts - 600 goal small forward, 3xAA
Patrick Dangerfield - 8xAA, Brownlow medallist, best player in the game, had only played 109 games
Brent Reilly - AA40 squad, showing that even our 2014 role players had good seasons at times
Nathan Van Berlo - 200 game ex captain
Richard Douglas - 200 game B&F winner and AA squad member
Jason Porplyzia - AA40 squad member small forward
David Mackay - 200 game player

Below 100 games

Rory Sloane - future All Australian and dual B&F winner, was on 80 games
Taylor Walker - future 600 goal forward and All Australian, was on 70 games
Daniel Talia - future 2xAA and Rising Star, had played 50 games at the time
Rory Laird - future 2xAA, 3x B&F winner, had only played 20 games
Sam Jacobs - multiple AA40 squad ruck, was on 80 games
Brodie Smith - future All Australian, on 50 games
Tom Lynch - future AA40 squad member, 30 games
Josh Jenkins - future AA40 squad member, 300 goal ruck forward, 30 games
Brad Crouch - future B&F winner, 15 games
Matt Crouch - future B&F winner and All Australian, 0 games
Charlie Cameron - future 400 goal small forward and 2x All Australian, 0 games
Jarryd Lyons - future AA40 squad member, 12 games

The list included a bunch more 100 game role players including Luke Brown, Matthew Wright, Rory Atkins, Jake Kelly, Kyle Hartigan, Ricky Henderson, Andy Otten - all played less than 100 games up to that point

So we had 7 future All Australians below 100 games on the list in 2014, as well as four B&F winners, 600 and 400 goal forwards. Four of them would play 250 games. And on top of that we had a bunch of role players that would go on to make 100 games

So you're the one who always says we pump too many games into poor players ....that Mackay is the worst 200 game player in the Clubs history .....and now you're using games played to define list quality

Brent Reilly, Lyons, board whipping boys .....and you want to include Atkins, and Jake Kelly in your argument

Sorry if I don't take this seriously

 

[adelaidecrows]

This discussion about best list gave me a good laugh. We're saying the list that just finished bottom 4 and added 3 mid range players can now be spoken about in the same breath as the lists that won flags, made prelims and grand finals. Recency bias at its most absurd.

The 2005/06 team would beat the current one by 20 goals. They had 4 A graders just in the midfield, we have 2 on the entire list.

I agree recency bias is absurd. But different eras are different eras and there is no doubt todays footballer is faster, stronger, taller and heavier than those of 15 years ago. But as an era, the team from 2005/2006 and 1997/1998 were better teams for what the era was.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Our 2055 list will be our best ever by a trillion billion miles

 

[WaynesWorld19]

The fact that we've finished bottom 5 is completely and utterly irrelevant, given that he's basing his judgement of most of the players off their potential - not what they've done to date. Given that most of them are still very early in their careers, that's not unreasonable.

I think he's being more than a little bit optimistic with his potential ratings for many players, but that's just my opinion - and WW is entitled to see things differently, until such time as they are proven otherwise.

Vader this is a generalisation, not a personal dig mate

This board only exists because everyone is making player assessments based on personal projections .....the only time there's a variance off this projecting is in the cases such as Smith & Sloane, known entities with a long career behind them, who are benchmarked against the past career performances

Currently, every poster on every board is making assessments of the potential of U18 draftees .....kids who haven't even played one AFL game .....but every poster is projecting their futures already

George Kramer & 1970crow .....both self-proclaimed non-junior draft watchers, and non judges of talent ......posted this just the other day


So it's a bit hypocritical to then turn around and dismiss an opinion given of a list based on projection .....whilst others keen on dismissing the premise, for no other reason than to dismiss it ......have either done zero research, or included quite a few players they've personally pillared over the years

The Youtube video I posted yesterday of the Western Australian boys discussing Curtin .....saying the kid is going to be a champion.... what, after 7 games ? ......yep they've projected based on his talent ....so are people dismissive of these comments ?

People saying, we should overlook Rachele's slow start to his career .....he will be an "A" grader ....this is posters projecting his future

So I have 15 players on my list as "A" graders .....I'm not talking about the elite players we've had in the past & comparing them .....I'm talking about the number of quality players, and I've been cut throat ....Crouch, ROB, and Walker are not included in my list
I have not included the GWS boys coming in either

It's fine to disagree .....but don't be a hypocrite about what you yourself post everyday (not personal, but a generalisation) ....and don't be an ignoramus, and simply say you're wrong, without putting up some rationale to counter

Our premierships were never won off a great list .....great coaching, yes ....but we had a lot of role players, with elite talent in the right areas of the field

 

[Shifty Crow]

Vader this is a generalisation, not a personal dig mate

This board only exists because everyone is making player assessments based on personal projections .....the only time there's a variance off this projecting is in the cases such as Smith & Sloane, known entities with a long career behind them, who are benchmarked against the past career performances

Currently, every poster on every board is making assessments of the potential of U18 draftees .....kids who haven't even played one AFL game .....but every poster is projecting their futures already

George Kramer & 1970crow .....both self-proclaimed non-junior draft watchers, and non judges of talent ......posted this just the other day

View attachment 2163273
So it's a bit hypocritical to then turn around and dismiss an opinion given of a list based on projection .....whilst others keen on dismissing the premise, for no other reason than to dismiss it ......have either done zero research, or included quite a few players they've personally pillared over the years

The Youtube video I posted yesterday of the Western Australian boys discussing Curtin .....saying the kid is going to be a champion.... what, after 7 games ? ......yep they've projected based on his talent ....so are people dismissive of these comments ?

People saying, we should overlook Rachele's slow start to his career .....he will be an "A" grader ....this is posters projecting his future

So I have 15 players on my list as "A" graders .....I'm not talking about the elite players we've had in the past & comparing them .....I'm talking about the number of quality players, and I've been cut throat ....Crouch, ROB, and Walker are not included in my list
I have not included the GWS boys coming in either

It's fine to disagree .....but don't be a hypocrite about what you yourself post everyday (not personal, but a generalisation) ....and don't be an ignoramus, and simply say you're wrong, without putting up some rationale to counter

Our premierships were never won off a great list .....great coaching, yes ....but we had a lot of role players, with elite talent in the right areas of the field

Our coaches turned it into a great list

At the time McLeod , Goody and Edwards were young and not established players

There was also players like Rintoul, Ellen and Cavem who the coaches turned into amazing role players

I don’t think any other coach than Blighty would have won a flag with that list profile at that time


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[WaynesWorld19]

This discussion about best list gave me a good laugh. We're saying the list that just finished bottom 4 and added 3 mid range players can now be spoken about in the same breath as the lists that won flags, made prelims and grand finals. Recency bias at its most absurd.

The 2005/06 team would beat the current one by 20 goals. They had 4 A graders just in the midfield, we have 2 on the entire list.

You're talking about seeing is believing .....didn't Phil Walsh project the Crows would be in the premiership window 3 years out from 2017 ?
Hardwick the same, he finished 13th in 2016 .....and said he had the best list ....he was roundly laughed at due to current performances:

Comment: Is Dimma delusional?​

POSITIVITY is a good football quality. Delusion isn't.

In trying to be forever positive in a season of football which has been anything but, Richmond coach Damien Hardwick has become delusional.

It started early April with a reference to the Tigers needing to take a few steps back in order to go forward. It continued in the same month with a pledge that his side would work its way out of an early season slump.

Then came the doozy in late May. "We feel in the footy club now (we have) as good a list as I think we've had at my disposal since I've been there,'' Hardwick said.

As late as yesterday, the delusion continued. "We feel we're a finals-calibre side."

Comment: Is Dimma delusional?

Maybe it's time for old-fashioned Tiger bloodletting: Damian Barrett

www.afl.com.au

 

[Captain Furious]

You're talking about seeing is believing .....didn't Phil Walsh project the Crows would be in the premiership window 3 years out from 2017 ?
Hardwick the same, he finished 13th in 2016 .....and said he had the best list ....he was roundly laughed at due to current performances:

Comment: Is Dimma delusional?​

POSITIVITY is a good football quality. Delusion isn't.

In trying to be forever positive in a season of football which has been anything but, Richmond coach Damien Hardwick has become delusional.

It started early April with a reference to the Tigers needing to take a few steps back in order to go forward. It continued in the same month with a pledge that his side would work its way out of an early season slump.

Then came the doozy in late May. "We feel in the footy club now (we have) as good a list as I think we've had at my disposal since I've been there,'' Hardwick said.

As late as yesterday, the delusion continued. "We feel we're a finals-calibre side."

Comment: Is Dimma delusional?

Maybe it's time for old-fashioned Tiger bloodletting: Damian Barrett

www.afl.com.au

I'm not sure what the question/comment is. If you're saying this list could be one of the best lists we've had, then sure. But by that we have to accept that we can say that every year and every other club can also say that every year. Some of the players we think might be stars may well be. But some won't.

Right now, we do not have a good list - as defined in the only realistic way, by winning games - we just finished bottom 4 and have less A grade talent than we've ever had in our history. Hopefully that will change like it did for Hawthorn this year. Or maybe it won't, like it didn't for us this year.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

I'm not sure what the question/comment is. If you're saying this list could be one of the best lists we've had, then sure. But by that we have to accept that we can say that every year and every other club can also say that every year. Some of the players we think might be stars may well be. But some won't.

Right now, we do not have a good list - as defined in the only realistic way, by winning games - we just finished bottom 4 and have less A grade talent than we've ever had in our history. Hopefully that will change like it did for Hawthorn this year. Or maybe it won't, like it didn't for us this year.

So early 2024, HAW are losing games and playing **** ......so their list is bad ....and this was the so calledexperts talking here

2nd half of the season, HAW get Day back & go on an amazing streak of winning games

Is your premise, that the same list went from **** to amazing in the same year .....because I can't accept that argument

 

[Jars458]

Our coaches turned it into a great list

At the time McLeod , Goody and Edwards were young and not established players

There was also players like Rintoul, Ellen and Cavem who the coaches turned into amazing role players

I don’t think any other coach than Blighty would have won a flag with that list profile at that time


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

No question. The stars aligned on a big way to give us our only success.

 

[George Kramer]

Vader this is a generalisation, not a personal dig mate

This board only exists because everyone is making player assessments based on personal projections .....the only time there's a variance off this projecting is in the cases such as Smith & Sloane, known entities with a long career behind them, who are benchmarked against the past career performances

Currently, every poster on every board is making assessments of the potential of U18 draftees .....kids who haven't even played one AFL game .....but every poster is projecting their futures already

George Kramer & 1970crow .....both self-proclaimed non-junior draft watchers, and non judges of talent ......posted this just the other day

View attachment 2163273
So it's a bit hypocritical to then turn around and dismiss an opinion given of a list based on projection .....whilst others keen on dismissing the premise, for no other reason than to dismiss it ......have either done zero research, or included quite a few players they've personally pillared over the years

The Youtube video I posted yesterday of the Western Australian boys discussing Curtin .....saying the kid is going to be a champion.... what, after 7 games ? ......yep they've projected based on his talent ....so are people dismissive of these comments ?

People saying, we should overlook Rachele's slow start to his career .....he will be an "A" grader ....this is posters projecting his future

So I have 15 players on my list as "A" graders .....I'm not talking about the elite players we've had in the past & comparing them .....I'm talking about the number of quality players, and I've been cut throat ....Crouch, ROB, and Walker are not included in my list
I have not included the GWS boys coming in either

It's fine to disagree .....but don't be a hypocrite about what you yourself post everyday (not personal, but a generalisation) ....and don't be an ignoramus, and simply say you're wrong, without putting up some rationale to counter

Our premierships were never won off a great list .....great coaching, yes ....but we had a lot of role players, with elite talent in the right areas of the field

Oh dear, once again you’ve exposed yourself as totally clueless.

Are you that desperate to try and get one on me that you will grasp at any comment. Clearly my post was a pisstake. Clearly someone who watches a lot of junior footy will have more of an idea about the talent available. I don’t watch junior footy and my opinions are based on highlights and what I like from those highlights, I’ve said this many times. It just happens that my opinion on Smith and Draper seems to be backed up by some who actually do follow the juniors.

But for you to try and draw a parallel between my post and your claim that this is the best list ever, is laughable. For starters you backed away from that when challenged as 1970crow quite rightly pointed out.

Making calls on draftees vs making assessments on our team which consists of players we watch weekly and a club that we’ve watched since inception, is chalk and cheese. There is absolutely no relevance to your inane post and comparison.

Now how about that Davis fella and the role he’s given, what actually is Nicks now responsible for? A case of buyers remorse from the club in reappointing Nicks early that they’ve effectively hired a director to be our pseudo coach? Still no comment from you on this.

 

[George Kramer]

I'm not sure what the question/comment is. If you're saying this list could be one of the best lists we've had, then sure. But by that we have to accept that we can say that every year and every other club can also say that every year. Some of the players we think might be stars may well be. But some won't.

Right now, we do not have a good list - as defined in the only realistic way, by winning games - we just finished bottom 4 and have less A grade talent than we've ever had in our history. Hopefully that will change like it did for Hawthorn this year. Or maybe it won't, like it didn't for us this year.

He actually said this was the best list, he backed down from that to one of the best but won’t admit it

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

No we don't. People on this board say this every year.

You are confusing having a lot of average AFL footballers on our list with actual proper depth.

I mentioned at the start of 2024 that I was concerned we traded out 2 players net depth.

For 2025 we have traded in 2 players net depth, so we are better placed imo.

Our 24th to 30th players are better for next season

Also, of our remaining players, we have more which are now AFL ready given we have got games into them.

Our only retirement was Sloane who had no impact on 2024.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Our coaches turned it into a great list

At the time McLeod , Goody and Edwards were young and not established players

There was also players like Rintoul, Ellen and Cavem who the coaches turned into amazing role players

I don’t think any other coach than Blighty would have won a flag with that list profile at that time


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Nicks certainly is nowhere near Blighty levels!

 

[Captain Furious]

So early 2024, HAW are losing games and playing **** ......so their list is bad ....and this was the so calledexperts talking here

2nd half of the season, HAW get Day back & go on an amazing streak of winning games

Is your premise, that the same list went from **** to amazing in the same year .....because I can't accept that argument

What did you think of the Hawthorn list at the end of 2023? They'd just finished bottom 4 but had a lot of promising young talent. If a Hawthorn supporter had said it was a great list, you would have laughed at them. Because we judge a list by what they've done, not what they might do if a certain set of circumstances occur - and I think it reasonable that we judge it by a complete season and not through varying form throughout the year. Brisbane didn't suddenly have a bad list when they were 2-5 last year - they had a great list in bad form. We knew that because they'd had a strong recent history of winning more games than most clubs and going deep into finals.

We've had lists that won flags, lists full of All Australians that consistently won games and were contenders. Our current list finished bottom 4 and hasn't played finals for 7 years, let alone been a premiership contender. It's towards the bottom of the lists we've had, not towards the top. And that doesn't change because we can make fictitious line ups with no injuries and everyone in top form where players who normally play are squeezed out. It only changes when we win games, play finals and contend for flags. Only then.

 

[George Kramer]

Nicks certainly is nowhere near Blighty levels!

Yep, WaynesWorld19 is all over the shot. Fawning over both Nicks and the list whilst we finished 15th then goes on to say our premiership sides weren’t as good a list but success was due to coaching.

Doesn’t compute.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

What did you think of the Hawthorn list at the end of 2023? They'd just finished bottom 4 but had a lot of promising young talent. If a Hawthorn supporter had said it was a great list, you would have laughed at them. Because we judge a list by what they've done, not what they might do if a certain set of circumstances occur - and I think it reasonable that we judge it by a complete season and not through varying form throughout the year. Brisbane didn't suddenly have a bad list when they were 2-5 last year - they had a great list in bad form. We knew that because they'd had a strong recent history of winning more games than most clubs and going deep into finals.

We've had lists that won flags, lists full of All Australians that consistently won games and were contenders. Our current list finished bottom 4 and hasn't played finals for 7 years, let alone been a premiership contender. It's towards the bottom of the lists we've had, not towards the top. And that doesn't change because we can make fictitious line ups with no injuries and everyone in top form where players who normally play are squeezed out. It only changes when we win games, play finals and contend for flags. Only then.

I still believe HAW list is far from a good list .....they over-achieved in 2024 ...in 2025 they will be the hunted, a team with no expectations place on them in 2024, will have the full weight of expectation in 2025

Will not surprise me if HAW miss the 8 next year

The big mistake, and the Western Bulldogs are a prime example .....people look at their top 6-10 players and say WOW ....yet they continually falter because their list is so so .....all their TPP goes to their upper echelon of players

 

[Captain Furious]

I still believe HAW list is far from a good list .....they over-achieved in 2024 ...in 2025 they will be the hunted, a team with no expectations place on them in 2024, will have the full weight of expectation in 2025

Will not surprise me if HAW miss the 8 next year

The big mistake, and the Western Bulldogs are a prime example .....people look at their top 6-10 players and say WOW ....yet they continually falter because their list is so so .....all their TPP goes to their upper echelon of players

So a list that was a few inches of a Sicily kick from making a prelim is no good but a list that finished bottom 4 is amazing?

You're basing your thoughts on what you hope and think might happen, not actual reality. I also hope that this list becomes one of our best ever but it patently isn't right now.

 

[George Kramer]

So a list that was a few inches of a Sicily kick from making a prelim is no good but a list that finished bottom 4 is amazing?

You're basing your thoughts on what you hope and think might happen, not actual reality. I also hope that this list becomes one of our best ever but it patently isn't right now.

So Hawks overrated list great coach gets them up.

Crows great list and great coach finish 15th.

Welcome to Wayne’s World

 

[1970crow]

Just as I thought .....you can't back-up any of your comments with facts

I've got 3 facts. Your first post stated this was our best list ever - FACT. You then retreated and described it as one of our best ever lists - FACT. And you won't admit it because there's something wrong with you - FACT.

 

[1970crow]

Rankine is the clear match-up for either Betts or Cameron - probably Cameron - but he can't replace both.

Soligo the Sloane equivalent.

Walker is on both the 2014 & 2025 lists - so surely he just cancels himself out?

Above is some of the delusion that infests the club and supporters. 2014 & 2025 Tex cancel each other out, I mean, you just have to laugh.

 

[1970crow]

But it's a wank if he doesn't include who he is marking against.

He has said each year our list is great when we finished bottom 5 for most of that time

It's wrong and he is wrong now.

To counter your argument he cannot say how good this list is as he doesn't have a time machine either

One thing I know as a Waynus FACT, is that our 2035 list shits all over our 2025 list. Not even in the same ballpark.

 

[1970crow]

So you're the one who always says we pump too many games into poor players ....that Mackay is the worst 200 game player in the Clubs history .....and now you're using games played to define list quality

Brent Reilly, Lyons, board whipping boys .....and you want to include Atkins, and Jake Kelly in your argument

Sorry if I don't take this seriously

Lyons wasn't a board whipping boy.

 

[Vader]

I'm not sure what the question/comment is. If you're saying this list could be one of the best lists we've had, then sure. But by that we have to accept that we can say that every year and every other club can also say that every year. Some of the players we think might be stars may well be. But some won't.

Right now, we do not have a good list - as defined in the only realistic way, by winning games - we just finished bottom 4 and have less A grade talent than we've ever had in our history. Hopefully that will change like it did for Hawthorn this year. Or maybe it won't, like it didn't for us this year.

... Except that "winning games" is NOT the only realistic way of assessing the list, particularly a list which is coming out of a 5-year ground-up rebuild.

WW is arguing that the youngsters we have on our list now, while not yet at their peaks (and thus not yet winning enough games to be considered greats), have the potential to be the greatest overall list that the club has ever had. He's looking to their future, not to their past.

I think he's overly optimistic in forecasting what some of them will become (though I agree that Curtin has the potential to become a great). By all means argue on that basis - but arguing on the basis that "we didn't win enough games to make the finals in 2024, so the list is garbage" is to miss the point entirel.

 

[1970crow]

Vader this is a generalisation, not a personal dig mate

This board only exists because everyone is making player assessments based on personal projections .....the only time there's a variance off this projecting is in the cases such as Smith & Sloane, known entities with a long career behind them, who are benchmarked against the past career performances

Currently, every poster on every board is making assessments of the potential of U18 draftees .....kids who haven't even played one AFL game .....but every poster is projecting their futures already

George Kramer & 1970crow .....both self-proclaimed non-junior draft watchers, and non judges of talent ......posted this just the other day

View attachment 2163273
So it's a bit hypocritical to then turn around and dismiss an opinion given of a list based on projection .....whilst others keen on dismissing the premise, for no other reason than to dismiss it ......have either done zero research, or included quite a few players they've personally pillared over the years

The Youtube video I posted yesterday of the Western Australian boys discussing Curtin .....saying the kid is going to be a champion.... what, after 7 games ? ......yep they've projected based on his talent ....so are people dismissive of these comments ?

People saying, we should overlook Rachele's slow start to his career .....he will be an "A" grader ....this is posters projecting his future

So I have 15 players on my list as "A" graders .....I'm not talking about the elite players we've had in the past & comparing them .....I'm talking about the number of quality players, and I've been cut throat ....Crouch, ROB, and Walker are not included in my list
I have not included the GWS boys coming in either

It's fine to disagree .....but don't be a hypocrite about what you yourself post everyday (not personal, but a generalisation) ....and don't be an ignoramus, and simply say you're wrong, without putting up some rationale to counter

Our premierships were never won off a great list .....great coaching, yes ....but we had a lot of role players, with elite talent in the right areas of the field

We're adding one player to a 40+ person playing list, we could select a Marcus Bontempelli clone and it's not going to change the reality that this list is not our best ever list, as you originally claimed and what caused the eye rolls that you seemed surprised to receive. Now that you've changed your mind and decided to go with 'one of the best lists we'd had', I'm not even going to disagree with you, we've had 30+ lists in our time, this one might turn out to be in the top handful, it's doubtful, but it's also pointless arguing about.

What isn't pointless is getting old Waynus to admit that he was being deliberately deceitful when he posted about eye rolls to him saying 'one of the best lists' when the eye rolls were only to his post that said 'the best list ever'. Can old Waynus admit that fact. No, I didn't think so, because Waynus lives in somewhat of a fantasy land.