3rd Ashes Test England v Australia July 6-10 1930hrs @ Headingley

[nick1408]

I have really likes Neser for a long time (well before his first test). The problem is the time to pick him was for the third test, not now. The third test when 2-0 up does allow some experiment but now at 2-1 there is less room to go outside the square.

Neser also has a big issue in that Australia doesn’t like picking out-and-out swing bowlers. We like really fast guys (Lee, Cummins, Starc), really accurate guys (McGrath, Hazlewood, Ryan Harris) and guys who can bowl all day (Kasperwiz, Siddle, Harris again). When we do pick swingers they are either found out at the level or gotten rid of after a test or two (Neser, Mennie, Sayers Massie to a lesser extent). All that is fine and it’s worked for us but it is why I don’t see Neser playing.

In saying all that; I’d still be picking Neser but it would be in lieu of Hazlewood/Boland. Hazlewood is averaging roughly 33 so I don’t see it as a huge loss to not play him. Boland hasn’t worked for whatever reason so Neser is next cab off the rank. With the addition of Green also we could have pretty much every option available if someone does get injured/Neser doesn’t perform. Id be looking at something like:

Khawaja
Green (I want Head lower in the order and Green will be no worse than Warner)
Labaschagne
Smith
Head
Marsh
Carey
Neser
Cummins
Starc
Murphy

We do have flexibility but bottom line is Warner misses out.

 

[Burtonsgottago]

2-1 up with 2 to play….Bring in Neser and stack the batting

 

[4Seasons]

Neser is an absolute must for selection, if the selectors dont pick him, they are blind donkeys

I personally don’t think the selectors have much interest in Neser, but I take Danstars word at 100%, his strike rate is simply extraordinary.
I now confidently predict there is 0% chance of Neser playing the 4th Tesr.

 

[Peter Bixley]

The forecast for Manchester next week is changing by the hour. It's not as wet this week as predicted, so I expect normal pitch preparation will take place.

This morning was showing that we might lose two sessions all test, but now it's showing we could lose two days.

We really just have to turn up and see what is on offer. If it's not dry and not likely to break up then we go with Neser over Murphy. If it's a standard Old Trafford pitch then we go with Murphy over Neser.

I don't see the selectors making many other changes, except Haze for Boland.

 

[4Seasons]

If Neser was in consideration for this Test, would he have even had the opportunity to make his magnificent 176no?
He’d be with the squad.
He’d be studying, discussing, training with teammates and coaches on how to dismiss the current English batsman?

 

[Peter Bixley]

If Neser was in consideration for this Test, would he have even had the opportunity to make his magnificent 176no?
He’d be with the squad.
He’d be studying, discussing, training with teammates and coaches on how to dismiss the current English batsman?

The squad have been off since Sunday. Some of them have gone off around Europe, some are in Scotland playing golf. Neser was given the opportunity to play to put himself in contention.

 

[4Seasons]

The forecast for Manchester next week is changing by the hour. It's not as wet this week as predicted, so I expect normal pitch preparation will take place.

This morning was showing that we might lose two sessions all test, but now it's showing we could lose two days.

We really just have to turn up and see what is on offer. If it's not dry and not likely to break up then we go with Neser over Murphy. If it's a standard Old Trafford pitch then we go with Murphy over Neser.

I don't see the selectors making many other changes, except Haze for Boland.

The forecast for Manchester next week is changing by the hour. It's not as wet this week as predicted, so I expect normal pitch preparation will take place.

This morning was showing that we might lose two sessions all test, but now it's showing we could lose two days.

We really just have to turn up and see what is on offer. If it's not dry and not likely to break up then we go with Neser over Murphy. If it's a standard Old Trafford pitch then we go with Murphy over Neser.

I don't see the selectors making many other changes, except Haze for Boland.

My guess is the Hazlewood inclusion was forecast a long way out, he’s being “managed”.
Maybe Starc/Boland selections was an up in the air one, considering how the series went, but I feel the selectors wanted to go Cummins, Hazlewood, Starc, Lyon to finish the last 2 Tests. And Starc now gets the nod.

Interesting selection ahead.
Do they go Murphy as a replacement for Lyon?
Do thay go Boland with an all pace approach?
Do they think rolling two allrounders into a forth shared bowler has merit?

 

[CrowBloke]

Neser also has a big issue in that Australia doesn’t like picking out-and-out swing bowlers.

Not always.
Terry Alderman, swing bowler, 12 Tests in England and 83 wickets and 19runs/wicket. Wow.

Massie, whom you mentioned, debuted in England with 16/137 but his career was cut short by "failing health and poor form" (Fox) --- note also he got several of those 16 wickets bowling around the wicket to R-handed batsmen. Doesn't happen much, now.

I think Australia has not produced many swing bowlers who've capitalised on English wickets.

 

[Silver Tongue]

Botham's Ashes 1981.

Kim Hughes keeps bowling a broken down Lillee, Alderman and Lawson. He forgot he had a spinner in Ray Bright. History repeating.

 

[Hawks_4478]

In the last ten Tests at Old Trafford:

Pace bowling has taken 238 wickets at 26.42

Spin bowling has taken 76 wickets at 39.83.

Do we need to pick Murphy?

 

[Peter Bixley]

In the last ten Tests at Old Trafford:

Pace bowling has taken 238 wickets at 26.42

Spin bowling has taken 76 wickets at 39.83.

Do we need to pick Murphy?

On that evidence, you'd say no. But looking at the fact that Marsh and Green may both play then we're not likely to pick another seam bowler. I do think that the selectors like the option of spin just in case. I do feel like we have a long tail though, because Starc doesn't quite look his best with the bat and Cummins has been going backwards for a while (notwithstanding the Edgbaston second innings).

 

[Plugger35]

Botham's Ashes 1981.

Kim Hughes keeps bowling a broken down Lillee, Alderman and Lawson. He forgot he had a spinner in Ray Bright. History repeating.

Pretty easy to forget about Ray Bright.

 

[BlueBayou]

Great post, terrific read thanks.
Yes, you were my pet-hate opener with good technique and unlikely to have a slash. In our League were a lot of Old Scholar teams whose batsmen had been well-coached. Sound defence, smack the bad ball; hard to get out. A bloke named Simon Lane was my nemesis --- a cross between Greg Chappell and Mark Waugh in style and technique. I never got him out.

I played A1 Turf which at the time was a good level, probably equivalent to B-Grade District Cricket, from whose A-Grade State teams were selected. Our A1 keeper left the Club and played A-Grade District with success; made the State squad a couple of times. Our Captain-Coach for one season was an ex-SA opening bat. The Club Admin. and many of the team were in awe of him, but he was a long-neck boozehound and only lasted a year. I was his into-the-wind swing bowler, used to shut down one end. That season I bowled the most overs in the Comp. Our other opener was a tall, slim bloke with a whippy action who got me a lot of wickets. Batsmen used to try to keep him out and took their chances against me which = wickets, thanks Smithy.

I loved this anecdote:

When I think back to those pre-helmet days, it makes me shudder.
One of my best mates was our #3; in one game he was through a pull shot too quickly and the ball smacked into his lower R-hand jaw. We heard the <crack> of his jaw breaking from beyond the boundary . His jaw was wired for a long time and he had to carry wire-cutting snips with him in case of emergency throw-up. He could only eat blended foods, soups etc.
Those were the days, eh?

This is hilarious:

My Clarrie story goes back to the early 90's. In about 2010, I made the switch from boat to beach fishing, first along Adelaide Metro beaches (smaller fish, but more of them) then later along the S-E side of Yorke Peninsula which was a revelation. There we've caught many, many more fish than we ever had from THEBOAT which was a money pit. A greater variety of species and bigger fish too.

Lehmann tweeted that without Warner's 66 we lose the 2nd Test, conveniently overlooking Smith's ton and Head's 77. Warner contributed, but was not the match-winner. You're right; they have Bairstow who probably causes more harm than Warner, anyway.
I doubt that they'll drop Warner, mostly because they'll be trying to send a message to the Poms that they're unruffled by the Lords loss.
They'd be mugs to drop Marsh, though.

It's apt that you cite Greg Chappell. He was my idol as a youngster. Classical tecnique, tall, imperious, a joy to watch. I had a life sized poster of him on my wall back in the early 70's. I got out many more times then I should have trying to whip good length balls off the stumps through mid wicket as that poster depicted.

I never wore a helmet in my entire 50 year career. It was less of a problem at the end, 14yo opening bolwers are not a big threat.. . In earlier days, we had a correct technique to sway out of the way of short balls, wait for the one pitched in the right place, and smack it backward of square.

We used to have a name for the hook shot played slightly too late, and when inadequate footwork meant the jaw was under threat. We called it the Oh * shot! As in ohhh *, I hope I hit this...

Thanks for this great dicussion. I hope we can continue it through the next two tests. And maybe even when the Mighty Baggers kick the living crap out of those Ravens....

 

[Silver Tongue]

Pretty easy to forget about Ray Bright.

Haha Tend to agree. My point remains though, Cummins fell for the same trap. He could have used Murphy far more effectively. Still might have lost.

 

[BlueBayou]

Describe your bolwing action Thommo....

'oh i just sort of shuffle up and go WHANG!'

 

[BlueBayou]

The last man to play in the last timeless Test only died in 2014 at 103. Amazingly he still lived in Hillbrow in Jo'burg which is my dad's old hood but rough as guts these days.

Was that the timeless test which was abandonded because they ran out of time and the Poms had to get the boat home?

 

[Australian Randall]

All this bazball is far too extravagant.

I'd rather watch 1.7 runs an over in a game of man vs ball. Proper test cricket the way it should be played.

 

[Ohitsthatguy]

Neser for Murphy

Will be a green pitch due to all the rain and it's obvious they're not confident in Murphy at the moment

Strengthens the batting too

 

[freo_leo29]

Can't see nesee playing

Is like 7th in line behind all of Warner green marsh Boland murphy hazlewood

The team will be made up of those players

 

[CrowBloke]

Neser also has a big issue in that Australia doesn’t like picking out-and-out swing bowlers. When we do pick swingers they are either found out at the level or gotten rid of after a test or two (Neser, Mennie, Sayers Massie to a lesser extent). All that is fine and it’s worked for us but it is why I don’t see Neser playing.

You've got me thinking about (mostly) Australian swing bowlers now, lol @ me.

All of Cummins, Hazlewood and Starc can swing the ball conventionally and reverse in the right conditions (Neser too). Starc in particular has bowled some of those fast, late-dipping inswinging yorkers, some of which have passed into legend, like the ball that got McCullum in that 2015 World cup Final, or Burns bowled off the first ball of the 2021 Ashes at the Gabba:

Gilchrist presents Baggy Green No.461 to Carey

Australia cricket legend Adam Gilchrist presented Alex Carey with Baggy Green cap No.461 as he made his debut in the first Vodafone Ashes Test at the Gabba

www.cricket.com.au

It's his go-to wicket ball which can be a shocker early in someone's innings at either end of the batting order. Beautiful when it comes off.
Speaking of beautiful bowling, Tongue bowled two swinging beauties from around the wicket to dismiss Warner and Khawaja in the Second Test.
When Broad and Anderson retire, an attack chosen from Wood (when fit), Tongue, Archer (when fit), Woakes and Floginson is going to be troublesome.

What I'm thinking is: why doesn't Starc bowl it more often? I can only guess.

When I was playing if I had a ball as good as that, and I didn't, I would have bowled it at least a couple of times an over. Back then, our side had a bloke named Roger Brearley who was a R-hand, high-arm, goofy-footer whose stock ball was an inswinger. For a change-up, he bowled a scrambled-seam straight ball.
Hi Roger, if you're still around .
Roger was metronomically accurate, inswing after inswing at slow-medium pace, getting a lot of LBWs/bowled from inswing and caught-behinds off that straight ball when batsmen, expecting inswing, played inside the line slightly. He was very hard to get away and probably got me a lot of wickets when batsmen tied down at his end had a slash at my tedious, 4th-stump-line (Coach's instructions) outswing. He deserved more wickets than he got.

Back to Starc.
The only reason I can think of is that Starc's big, loopy inswinger is veryvery hard to get right, at his pace. I think he tries it more often than it comes off which would explain his full tosses and wilder balls down the leg side. It might also be why he bleeds runs, sometimes. At those times, I reckon he's trying too hard. Everything has to go right for Starc --- high arm, angle of hand position, ball release, line, length --- plus he's running in fast and delivering fast.
The slightest variation can result in garbage, but that inswinger when it works , WOW!

 

[CrowBloke]

In the last ten Tests at Old Trafford:

Pace bowling has taken 238 wickets at 26.42

Spin bowling has taken 76 wickets at 39.83.

Do we need to pick Murphy?

Interesting data; on the strength of that you'd have to say NO, because
--- he's flatter and not as good as Lyon (yet), and
--- Cummins seems not to have confidence in him.

 

[The Passenger]

I can't be ****ed going back and quoting posts and don't get me wrong, I like Michael neser as a cricketer as much as the next person, but he is several levels below Josh Hazlewood.

If he's fit, Haze will (as he should) 100% be playing the next test.

Neser's selection comes down to us ditching a spinner.

 

[Freezin]

If Neser was in consideration for this Test, would he have even had the opportunity to make his magnificent 176no?
He’d be with the squad.
He’d be studying, discussing, training with teammates and coaches on how to dismiss the current English batsman?

Considering majority of the squad in line to play in Manchester are coming off recent match practice. Would of thought Neser needed a game before Manchester, then another sit down chat discussing the Eng batsmen. Isn't that what he has been doing the past 3 weeks? Pretty sure 4 days away playing county, wouldn't deprive Neser of any info he already probably knows.

 

[danstar]

Considering majority of the squad in line to play in Manchester are coming off recent match practice. Would of thought Neser needed a game before Manchester, then another sit down chat discussing the Eng batsmen. Isn't that what he has been doing the past 3 weeks? Pretty sure 4 days away playing county, wouldn't deprive Neser of any info he already probably knows.

He might have missed seeing the same bits of footage for the 61st time . Seriously he got 4 days of county cricket into him so hes fully fit and firing and not coming in straight off the bench.

 

[4Seasons]

Not always.
Terry Alderman, swing bowler, 12 Tests in England and 83 wickets and 19runs/wicket. Wow.

Massie, whom you mentioned, debuted in England with 16/137 but his career was cut short by "failing health and poor form" (Fox) --- note also he got several of those 16 wickets bowling around the wicket to R-handed batsmen. Doesn't happen much, now.

I think Australia has not produced many swing bowlers who've capitalised on English wicket

Considering majority of the squad in line to play in Manchester are coming off recent match practice. Would of thought Neser needed a game before Manchester, then another sit down chat discussing the Eng batsmen. Isn't that what he has been doing the past 3 weeks? Pretty sure 4 days away playing county, wouldn't deprive Neser of any info he already probably knows.

Fair call.
I’ll be shocked though if Neser is included to play Test cricket above the big three, and I’d almost now say Boland is in the big four.
I know Richardson is injured, but I think the selectors think he’s International quality.
I think social media people should give the selectors more credit.

Interesting though that the social media crowd sook about commentators, whilst commenting.