5th Test Border Gavaskar Trophy January 3-7 1000hrs @ the SCG

[revo333]

I was talking about technique with a friend the other day who argues that cricket has evolved now where the Konstas type player can find a spot in Test cricket. In other words, classic technique isn't as important as it once was. Not saying I was convinced totally but there may be some merit to the argument

England has proved you can have one or two in a team but having more will have mixed results.

I think Konstas and Head can play in the same team long term with the way they bat.

It seems what we saw with Konstas was specifically for this series and he won't be as reckless.

But in the circumstance of the last game, that quick fire 20 chasing 160 was worth double.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Alan Border is correct.

 

[peternorth]

And WTF would Tom the mouth Morris know?
Has he run out of AFL players to pot?

Is it because he doesn’t play the game?

Don’t worry. Come footy season I’m sure he’s got plenty in the gun

The Konstas criticism is so annoying. As soon as someone shows some flair every single mistake they make is attributed to them being immature and reckless (even if they score better/more than pretty much any other opening bat of the series).

The rush to push any big personality down is so weird. It's like people don't actually want to be entertained. We want heroes but we also want them to stay inside very specific set of guidelines

I think it’s the Aussie culture. Aussies like humility and being within parameters as you alluded to. People have said he’s like ginnivan.


If konstas was Indian he’d be lauded and put in a pedestal. It shows the difference in support between the two nations. Similarly during the matches the Indian crowd are noisy and cheer everything. It made Aussie fans uncomfortable as it’s not what we do.

 

[sr36]

The point of their podcast seemed to be ‘India can get away with all of this stuff because they’re India but anyone else wouldn’t be able to.’

I’m saying ‘only one of the things they did’ (I’m not going to comment on the ball tampering thing as it’s the first I’ve heard of it) ‘could get ANYONE punished, Indian or otherwise.’

Tell me which country’s players would be suspended for what Siraj did at Adelaide?

No one’s.

It’s a myth that he avoided something because he’s Indian; he avoided it because it’s just not that serious an offence. He looked like a dickhead, but that’s not a hanging offence

Maybe I did miss a point that they were making, I dunno, but it seemed to me that all these examples they were giving were of players behaving in a certain way, that if they were from any other country, they would have faced some serious level of punishment.


I don’t believe that to be the case.

I think if they were from any other country they would have faced a serious level of ‘look at this f**kwit’ - which they copped anyway, and deservedly so.

For all of that, as I said, I DO agree that IF they did something that warranted a suspension….. which they did in one case, they simply wouldn’t get given one.

I think they were exaggerating most of the incidents, but their point outside of Kohli avoiding a suspension was that they avoided criticism and scrutiny. Indian government is extremely nationalistic and censorious of the media to uphold Indian nationalism. Their media can't criticise the Indian cricket team and those non-Indian commentators who want to work in the IPL probably can't either.

 

[Topkent]

Could be the shittest country going round.


Hilarious to call her a pig when most of those little virgin campaigners couldn't **** a pig if they tried.

 

[Bucking Beads]

Can't expect much from a nation that shits on the street more than any other.

 

[Coops93]

As opposed to the aesthetics of a suburban ground with a tin shed in one corner?

By the way, the real answer here is that Australia should host six or even seven tests per year.

Yes, a full ground is always better than a 2/3rds empty stadium.

Half of NZs grounds are just grass hills with a shed on one side and they're great when filled up, which they often do.

 

[Cataholic]

The point of their podcast seemed to be ‘India can get away with all of this stuff because they’re India but anyone else wouldn’t be able to.’

I’m saying ‘only one of the things they did’ (I’m not going to comment on the ball tampering thing as it’s the first I’ve heard of it) ‘could get ANYONE punished, Indian or otherwise.’

Tell me which country’s players would be suspended for what Siraj did at Adelaide?

No one’s.

It’s a myth that he avoided something because he’s Indian; he avoided it because it’s just not that serious an offence. He looked like a dickhead, but that’s not a hanging offence

Maybe I did miss a point that they were making, I dunno, but it seemed to me that all these examples they were giving were of players behaving in a certain way, that if they were from any other country, they would have faced some serious level of punishment.


I don’t believe that to be the case.

I think if they were from any other country they would have faced a serious level of ‘look at this f**kwit’ - which they copped anyway, and deservedly so.

For all of that, as I said, I DO agree that IF they did something that warranted a suspension….. which they did in one case, they simply wouldn’t get given one.

Your last paragraph is the crux of the problem.

The Indians know they can behave any way they want because they're untouchable.

If ANYONE but an Indian deliberately and aggressively shoulder charged another player they'd be instantly suspended, but Kohli didn't even get a slap with a wet lettuce leaf.

20%? Pfft.

And if the ICI dared tried to usurp the BCCI's power over them there'd be all sorts of tantrums, boycotts and sulking.

 

[BGman]

Half of NZs grounds are just grass hills with a shed on one side and they're great when filled up, which they often do.

Yeh creates a good atmosphere. Downside is with small crowds comes small cricket revenue. No wonder NZ cricket punters believe Test cricket is dying there. Build one major cricket stadium.

 

[Cataholic]

Is it because he doesn’t play the game?

Don’t worry. Come footy season I’m sure he’s got plenty in the gun




I think it’s the Aussie culture. Aussies like humility and being within parameters as you alluded to. People have said he’s like ginnivan.


If konstas was Indian he’d be lauded and put in a pedestal. It shows the difference in support between the two nations. Similarly during the matches the Indian crowd are noisy and cheer everything. It made Aussie fans uncomfortable as it’s not what we do.

There's a strong suggestion he was a 'role actor' following a directive from team management.

True or not, his presence certainly threw the Indians off-balance, so in that respect 'mission accomplished '.

His persona in first class cricket is said to be quite different to what we saw in the Test arena.

People are so quick to jump.

Let's see how he plays and behaves from here on before we judge him on such a small sample size.

 

[grumbleguts]

Chris Broads century in the innings win in the 1986 Boxing Day test was my lowest ebb

Imagine being a Pakistan fan in this game:

ENG vs PAK Cricket Scorecard, 4th Test at London, August 26 - 29, 2010

Get cricket scorecard of 4th Test, ENG vs PAK, Pakistan tour of England 2010 at Lord's, London dated August 26 - 29, 2010.

www.espncricinfo.com

 

[Gethelred]

Which is completely understandable. Why they're not tapped on the shoulder is harder to explain.

It's a little more complicated than that.

Imagine, if you will, what actually coming up through a sport is really like. You'll have those who support you and nurture your talent, but then you're gonna have people who tell you straight up, "X is why you won't succeed."

I met a bloke on a coaching course who was on the edge of the WI setup for a long time; U16's nat, U18's nats, in the squad a few times. He told stories about how he met the same coach at 16's who told him, "You will never play for WI's." and then when he met him again on the edges of the squad that coach brought another coach over to him and said, "See. That's why you shouldn't have picked him." You're going to have people who 'tap you on the shoulder' all the ****ing time, evolved; people who see the reasons why you're going to flop, be a failure, find reasons why you won't make it.

When you get there to the apex of the game, the people there picked you multiple times. They've got your back, and you need to know they've got your back. This isn't 1990's England, in which the coaches could express faith in you then drop you for the next series; cricket coaching and selection have come a bloody long way. Look at what McCullum has done for England; these players were always under pressure, always on the edge of getting dropped, and they always played like it. Under Langer, we played like every run was an effort of will, afraid to play straight of the wicket or a shot out of line.

Do you think McDonald isn't going to have his player's back?

One of the big 'must drops' of the last few years was David Warner. Between the 23/11/2012 and the 20/2/2014, he had 2 hundreds and 9 50's @36.84; this gets even worse if we push that end date earlier to the 21/11/2013, because that is before he got 2 centuries and 2 50's; wipe off about 400 runs from 10ish digs. In that time, there were serious questions about him as a long form cricketer; after the first three years of his career, he had 5 centuries at under 40. There would've been any number of people in the setup who could've tapped him on the shoulder, but then he played a shield game against Victoria at Karen Rolson oval. In that game - featuring Pete Siddle, James Patinson, two blokes who were established players and had played test cricket before - Warner got extremely lucky early in that they essentially gifted him 36 odd runs through poor bowling; wide, straight, too full, too short. Warner got off to a flyer, getting a big ton in that game and the rest is history: Warner made 6 tons and 3 50's from his next 11 innings at test level.

You're going to go through sections where it's not working and to get you through them you need the support of those around you instead of that tap on the shoulder. When you're getting to the end of it, you'll feel your back starting to get up. They're not as insulated from the pressure of it as all that; they'd be as aware that things aren't going well as anyone. But - because it's worked for the rest of their career - they'll back themselves to prove the doubters wrong, to climb the hill that was impossible the first time around.

You're not going to know when you're done, and - let's face it - most sportspeople are not employed for their intelligence; you're not going to recognise the end unless you're a rare person, let alone player.

 

[ABAB]

Alan Border is correct.

View attachment 2198920

What cockiness? Hitting Bumrah because he couldn't score. If Konstas was cocky, he would have been the one who bump into Kohli lol.

 

[Soggy2112]

Those things though: motioning towards someone after a wicket? It’s not illegal, no one is going to get sanctioned for that, Indian or not.

I can understand people getting the shits about it, but ultimately none of them when Khawaja got out got right in Konstas’ personal space, touched him, abused him etc.

It was pretty obvious they wanted to, and Bumrah in particular really wanted to unleash and then almost visibly had a moment where he had to remind himself not to go too far. But I don’t see what they could have been sanctioned for.

Teams do that stuff when players rile them up. Remember the Aussies getting in a group and turning and barking at Faf when he left the field? Retrospectively it’s actually pretty funny albeit a bit childish.

Siraj to Head: again it was a bowler giving a batsman a send off, it happens every game. It just got exacerbated because this particular bowler looked incredibly f**king stupid given that the batsman had just crunched a century, and then the bowler came out and spoke about it. So what sanctions would be imposed over it? Maybe a fine, which he got anyway.


Kohli blows up at some photographers and tells them not to film him. Ok so again, he acts like a Prima Donna - it’s douche bag behaviour but what are the sanctions that he’s dodging? What suspensions are NZ players going to get for the same thing? You can’t MAKE a guy want to be photographed at an airport and be nice to the media. He didn’t break anyone’s camera or whatever. I guess some countries might make their players issue an apology maybe.


I’m just saying that a lot of the instances they’re talking about are things that understandably piss people off - no doubt about that - but they are things that other countries players HAVE done and not been rubbed out for so why would Indian players get rubbed out for them.

At any rate the bottom line is, I think we can agree, India realistically probably can do what they want.

But I don’t think beyond Kohli’s shoulder, that any of their behaviour crossed a line that would get someone suspended. And being realistic, him staying in the side probably helped if anything.

If we go through the list:

In the A games, their captain was reported for both ball tampering and dissent by the umpire, nothing followed this.

In Adelaide, Siraj and Head have their incident, both parties are responsible, I would argue Siraj more so for instigating it, post match, Head takes responsibility for his part and says he regrets it, Siraj claims Head lied and takes no responsibility. Both players receive equal sanctions.

There’s then the whole media stuff with Kohli and Jadeja, again, the Australian media probably has a role to play there, but we do know that no rules and procedures were violated as Kohli claimed, yet, that is swept under the rug.

In Melbourne, Kohli intentionally bumps Konstas and receives a slap on the wrist.

Later in that game, Jaiswal and Deep show clear dissent regarding 3rd umpire calls, nothing is done regarding this.

Then we go to Sydney, Sundar again shows clear dissent regarding an umpire’s decision, nothing follows.

Later that day Konstas mouths off to Bumrah, Bumrah takes a wicket and then does a 180 turn and charges towards Konstas, several players then run out of the way to run past and get in Konstas’ space. Konstas is absolutely partly responsible here, but Bumrah and many of his players’ conduct was also inappropriate, again, no sanction.

Now, as you say, only two of those are actually worthy of suspension, but we saw over this series a consistent pattern of India being able to whatever they want, and not only not receiving suspensions but publicly playing the victim.

Their media are simply not allowed to comment on this, despite many feeling the team has behaved poorly at times.

Now no doubt, our team has behaved poorly many, many times. But I also think generally as a cricket public in this country we are not afraid to pull punches when it comes to criticising that behaviour. There’s a reason that Smith and Warner received suspensions by CA that far exceeded those from the ICC. As fans, throughout this series we’ve seen things that we know not to be okay, and then there’s little to no commentary and little to no sanctions about it. We’re literally being gaslit because of the power the BCCI and particularly certain players hold.

It then adds extra frustration to the discussion around Konstas. Did he cross a line with Bumrah? I would say yes, but when we’re sitting here discussing whether a 19 year old in his second test got carried away with the moment, while India’s most experienced players and leaders both on and off field are behaving like petulant children and there’s almost zero consequences, it becomes incredibly hard to take.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

First time he's ever said something of value.

Gautam Gambhir: "There's been some really nice wickets. I think it's good for test cricket.

There was enough for the bowlers as well, there was enough for the batters. But that's what's going to keep test cricket alive. This was not the typical Sydney wicket what we normally are used to.

But then, this is how Test Cricket needs to be played. Result-oriented wickets."

 

[Joffaboy]

Could be the shittest country going round. View attachment 2198963


Hilarious to call her a pig when most of those little virgin campaigners couldn't **** a pig if they tried.

Indian Rape culture is very disturbing.

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[Silly Mid On]

If we go through the list:

In the A games, their captain was reported for both ball tampering and dissent by the umpire, nothing followed this.

In Adelaide, Siraj and Head have their incident, both parties are responsible, I would argue Siraj more so for instigating it, post match, Head takes responsibility for his part and says he regrets it, Siraj claims Head lied and takes no responsibility. Both players receive equal sanctions.

There’s then the whole media stuff with Kohli and Jadeja, again, the Australian media probably has a role to play there, but we do know that no rules and procedures were violated as Kohli claimed, yet, that is swept under the rug.

In Melbourne, Kohli intentionally bumps Konstas and receives a slap on the wrist.

Later in that game, Jaiswal and Deep show clear dissent regarding 3rd umpire calls, nothing is done regarding this.

Then we go to Sydney, Sundar again shows clear dissent regarding an umpire’s decision, nothing follows.

Later that day Konstas mouths off to Bumrah, Bumrah takes a wicket and then does a 180 turn and charges towards Konstas, several players then run out of the way to run past and get in Konstas’ space. Konstas is absolutely partly responsible here, but Bumrah and many of his players’ conduct was also inappropriate, again, no sanction.

Now, as you say, only two of those are actually worthy of suspension, but we saw over this series a consistent pattern of India being able to whatever they want, and not only not receiving suspensions but publicly playing the victim.

Their media are simply not allowed to comment on this, despite many feeling the team has behaved poorly at times.

Now no doubt, our team has behaved poorly many, many times. But I also think generally as a cricket public in this country we are not afraid to pull punches when it comes to criticising that behaviour. There’s a reason that Smith and Warner received suspensions by CA that far exceeded those from the ICC. As fans, throughout this series we’ve seen things that we know not to be okay, and then there’s little to no commentary and little to no sanctions about it. We’re literally being gaslit because of the power the BCCI and particularly certain players hold.

It then adds extra frustration to the discussion around Konstas. Did he cross a line with Bumrah? I would say yes, but when we’re sitting here discussing whether a 19 year old in his second test got carried away with the moment, while India’s most experienced players and leaders both on and off field are behaving like petulant children and there’s almost zero consequences, it becomes incredibly hard to take.

For me, the two biggest issues were:
1. The Kohli shoulder charge - that should be a suspension. Cricket is a non contact sport - to have deliberate contact like that is inexcusable
2. The dissent when DRS decisions are given out. Whilst not worthy of a ban - if you are given out after a DRS review - get off the field. Even if it is contentious - when you're back in the dressing room, go and politely enquire with the match referee/ 3rd umpire. Don't stand around on the field in disbelief or challenge the on field umpires. This is something that can happen and has happened amongst most teams - so not just the Indians guilty - but Jaiswal 2nd innings in Melbourne and Sundar 1st innings Sydney prominent examples this series. It's unacceptable behaviour, and match fees should be docked for it

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[Rabish Binney]

It never, ever has been IMO.

It’s how you apply it whatever technique it is you employ.

Not sure how old you are but when I was a kid you basically had the Aussie team that was
Boon: had a little shuffle across to the offside and a wave of the bat and predominantly kept bat and pad together, defended from the front foot, attacked off the back
Taylor: brought his bat down from the slips quite a bit and liked to plonk the front foot
Steve Waugh: never pulled or hooked, got his hands incredibly low to the ground as he went forward then back and always played off the back foot unless he was defending or playing through the onside.
Mark Waugh: classical technique
Allan Border: looked like he almost stabbed at everything, crouched, went back and across, played away from his body when he attacked outside off and was regularly on the move when he hit the ball


Then you had England:
Gooch: bat almost pointing at the sky it was so far raised in his stance
Atherton: shuffled around his crease and forever prodding at anything outside off stump and never getting his front pad outside the line of the pegs but somehow managed to make runs when he wasn’t playing Australia and very good against short bowling.
Stewart: held the bat handle so high it was like a magic wand and had a huge step backwards
Smith: huge crouch when the bowler let the ball go and got right deep into his crease before waiting for a short ball to jump into

And on it went with Lara and his high back lift etc etc.

A good technique gets you a head start. But that’s about it IMO.

Lara was amazing. Had to be my favourite overseas player to watch

How the hell he could whip a ball through any part of the field with that back lift of his still has me in aura of him.

We were very lucky to see him; VVS; Sachin; Ponting et al during that era.

 

[Rabish Binney]

The point of their podcast seemed to be ‘India can get away with all of this stuff because they’re India but anyone else wouldn’t be able to.’

I’m saying ‘only one of the things they did’ (I’m not going to comment on the ball tampering thing as it’s the first I’ve heard of it) ‘could get ANYONE punished, Indian or otherwise.’

Tell me which country’s players would be suspended for what Siraj did at Adelaide?

No one’s.

It’s a myth that he avoided something because he’s Indian; he avoided it because it’s just not that serious an offence. He looked like a dickhead, but that’s not a hanging offence

Maybe I did miss a point that they were making, I dunno, but it seemed to me that all these examples they were giving were of players behaving in a certain way, that if they were from any other country, they would have faced some serious level of punishment.


I don’t believe that to be the case.

I think if they were from any other country they would have faced a serious level of ‘look at this f**kwit’ - which they copped anyway, and deservedly so.

For all of that, as I said, I DO agree that IF they did something that warranted a suspension….. which they did in one case, they simply wouldn’t get given one.

What I cant stand is the double standards given to Kohli by the media and (Indian) cricket fans in general

Might have the aussie glasses on but it seems that he can carry on like a dickhead and everyone seems to love it (oh, he's a competitive beast etc). Yet if an Australian player carried on like that, he would be roasted.

The shoulder incident on Konstas - was barely was raised by the media and certainly there was very little on Social Media from the Indian fans about it and nothing said form the BCCI.

Yet I've raised it before - what would have happened if it was Starc who dropped his shoulder into (say) KL Rahul? You can just imagine the outrage that would have happened. The BCCI would have bene in uproar.

Would he have been suspended I wonder?

Given that Kohli had form in this area previously, he should have been suspended. Some say to move on but you simply cannot do that on the cricket field.

 

[Rabish Binney]

Alan Border is correct.

View attachment 2198920

As Malcolm Blight so succinctly put it once ; "we love flair but we don't like lair".

 

[MarcMaverick]

Could be the shittest country going round. View attachment 2198963


Hilarious to call her a pig when most of those little virgin campaigners couldn't **** a pig if they tried.

It seems Travis Head is winning both on the field and off it. What a beauty!

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

What I cant stand is the double standards given to Kohli by the media and (Indian) cricket fans in general

Might have the aussie glasses on but it seems that he can carry on like a dickhead and everyone seems to love it (oh, he's a competitive beast etc). Yet if an Australian player carried on like that, he would be roasted.

The shoulder incident on Konstas - was barely was raised by the media and certainly there was very little on Social Media from the Indian fans about it and nothing said form the BCCI.

Yet I've raised it before - what would have happened if it was Starc who dropped his shoulder into (say) KL Rahul? You can just imagine the outrage that would have happened. The BCCI would have bene in uproar.

Would he have been suspended I wonder?

Given that Kohli had form in this area previously, he should have been suspended. Some say to move on but you simply cannot do that on the cricket field.

You can't let a 19yo run rampant disrepecting and taking the piss. What did you think was gonna happen?

 

[Matrix10]

Lots of Poms in Perth

That’s about the only negative of Perth

 

[cats_09]

You can't let a 19yo run rampant disrepecting and taking the piss. What did you think was gonna happen?

Doesn't matter the players age, there's zero need for one player to shoulder charge another player - especially when going out of their way as far as Kohli had to

 

[Rabish Binney]

It seems Travis Head is winning both on the field and off it. What a beauty!

Peter Crouch used to play for Liverpool in the EPL. Crouchy was no looker, in fact he was a shocker.

He was once asked by a reporter 'what would you be if you weren't a professional football player'?

His answer. 'A virgin'