5th Test Border Gavaskar Trophy January 3-7 1000hrs @ the SCG

[Lunchtime]

Complete (I think) list of test leggies who have taken 25+ wickets and averaged 35 or under:

View attachment 2202615

Just 31 players - 9 AUS, 6 ENG, 5 PAK, 4 IND, 2 SA, 2 WI, 1 AFG, 1 ZIM, 1 SL, 0 NZ.

Note, doesn't include left arm wrist spinners.

Paul Adams: 134 wkts @ 32.87
Michael Bevan: 25 wkts @ 24.24
Simon Katich: 21 wkts @ 30.23

All 3 were left-arm wrist spinners.

Even though Katich didn't quite get to the 25 wkts mark. As we know, Bevan and Katich were part-time bowlers, but good ones though.

 

[corbies]

He was doing ok up until this line:

“But I think if you were looking to play a lot of Test cricket as a leg spinner, I don’t see it happening.”

In theory he may be right - if you’re a young AVERAGE leg spinner, or of any age. If you’re young and you’re any good of course you’d be in the mix just like any good player of any skill.

Not sure it makes him an absolute knob to have an opinion on the way spin bowling is heading in Test cricket.

 

[sr36]

We have only had maybe six genuinely good leg spinners ever.

Warne
MacGill
Benaud
O’Reilly
Grimmett
Mailey

Lucky to average one each generation.

It is the most difficult discipline to learn and master. It is not like other nations are churning them out.

It's deeper than the bowlers aren't there. We've actually seen an increase in wrist spinners in short form cricket and a decline of them in long form.

Result-based pitches in tests favour accuracy over variation and deception. If it's a turner you want Jadeja hitting the spot continuosly and the pitches variations doing the batsman. If it's a seamer the spinners job is some overs of control with the old ball.

Whereas in short form the pitches are flat and the batsmen are swinging so variations and deception are gold.

Bazball might change things and bring wrist spinners back into test cricket, particularly on new ball pitches where batsman are likely to go hard at the old ball.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Bullies do what bullies do. Someone fronts them and it all goes to shit!

If you are going to stir the pot expect it to come back a bit. I actually don't think Kostas cares, its more the fans who are thinking he might be upset by it.
No one was bullied, fair dinkum hasn't the word bully been given new meaning these days.
It was good old fashion cricket banter with him and Bumrah. Great theatre.

The Kohli incident was entirely different and he should of faced a massive fine and a minimum of 1 test suspension.

 

[the_interloper]

We have only had maybe six genuinely good leg spinners ever.

Warne
MacGill
Benaud
O’Reilly
Grimmett
Mailey

Lucky to average one each generation.

It is the most difficult discipline to learn and master. It is not like other nations are churning them out.

Yeah you're not wrong, i was about 12 when Warney started playing, I really didn't know what the hell he was trying to do, had only really seen Trevor Hohns briefly.

 

[western royboy]

I actually think that if they’re looking at Trav as Pat’s replacement, then long term, having him captain this series would be detrimental to that.

Assuming Cummins’ has the job for probably 2-3 more years (I think beyond that we probably lose out on his performance as a bowler and he probably gets burnt out), then Trav might have the team for 3-4 years. He will want to put his own stamp on it and be able to run things his way I imagine.

Smith’s job will largely be to maintain the status quo and be in charge tactically on field, I don’t think that’s necessarily the best way for Head to be introduced to the job.

Remember, he’s captained SA for nearly a decade, so he’s not lacking captaincy experience.

I think Head is an excellent Captain, but I’m told that he declined it for this series

 

[PhatBoy]

Not sure it makes him an absolute knob to have an opinion on the way spin bowling is heading in Test cricket.

He’s an absolute knob in general though

 

[Mick F]

We have only had maybe six genuinely good leg spinners ever.

Warne
MacGill
Benaud
O’Reilly
Grimmett
Mailey

Lucky to average one each generation.

It is the most difficult discipline to learn and master. It is not like other nations are churning them out.

Wrist spin is not emeliorated by ‘unusual hyperextension’.

 

[Rabish Binney]

He was doing ok up until this line:

“But I think if you were looking to play a lot of Test cricket as a leg spinner, I don’t see it happening.”

In theory he may be right - if you’re a young AVERAGE leg spinner, or of any age. If you’re young and you’re any good of course you’d be in the mix just like any good player of any skill.

Reminds me of a story from the 1970's.

The Australian players were advocating for more money (prior to WSC) and at that time, a NSW Cricket Administrator came out in the media and said (something to the extent of) "there's 500,000 blokes who would play test cricket for Australia for nothing"

Thus insinuating that the test players were nothing more more than money hungry.

Apparently said Administrator just happened to venture into the Australian rooms at the SCG test where Ian Redpath proceeded to grab him, put him up against the wall and said "of course there's 500,000 blokes who would play test cricket for Australia for nothing; but how f**** good do you think they would be"

 

[PhatBoy]

Paul Adams: 134 wkts @ 32.87
Michael Bevan: 25 wkts @ 24.24
Simon Katich: 21 wkts @ 30.23

All 3 were left-arm wrist spinners.

Even though Katich didn't quite get to the 25 wkts mark. As we know, Bevan and Katich were part-time bowlers, but good ones though.

Kuldeep has done pretty well with 54 at 21 and can barely even get a look in

 

[sr36]

Kuldeep has done pretty well with 54 at 21 and can barely even get a look in

Real shame that Rashid isn't from a country that plays a lot of test match cricket.

 

[Bletch]

Yeah you're not wrong, i was about 12 when Warney started playing, I really didn't know what the hell he was trying to do, had only really seen Trevor Hohns briefly.

We tried out a bunch in that pre-Warne period. Hohns, Sleep, Mann, Holland. Even resorted to playing regular wicketkeeper, Tim Zoehrer, as a leggie (and he wasn't terrible).

Bill O'Reilly was quoted around that period as saying that a genuine leg-spinner is needed if we were ever going to conquer the might of the Windies of that era. Sadly, though Bill did get to see Warne bowl, he passed away just prior to Warne's breakout series against the Windies. He would have loved to have watched Warney through the 90s - just as Richie did.

 

[Gough]

We tried out a bunch in that pre-Warne period. Hohns, Sleep, Mann, Holland. Even resorted to playing regular wicketkeeper, Tim Zoehrer, as a leggie (and he wasn't terrible).

Bill O'Reilly was quoted around that period as saying that a genuine leg-spinner is needed if we were ever going to conquer the might of the Windies of that era. Sadly, though Bill did get to see Warne bowl, he passed away just prior to Warne's breakout series against the Windies. He would have loved to have watched Warney through the 90s - just as Richie did.

Two tours in a row that great West Indian side got done by so so spinners in Sydney who turned the ball away from the right hander, Tiger was probably on to something.

 

[PhatBoy]

Two tours in a row that great West Indian side got done by so so spinners in Sydney who turned the ball away from the right hander, Tiger was probably on to something.

Warne’s one really good contribution in a winning series against the Windies when they were still reasonably good was in the Sabina Park test in 1995 so he was probably right (he did have a pretty good test in Sydney too in 96-97 and his ball to Chanderpaul on the final afternoon started the rot to be fair)

 

[sr36]

We have only had maybe six genuinely good leg spinners ever.

Warne
MacGill
Benaud
O’Reilly
Grimmett
Mailey

Lucky to average one each generation.

It is the most difficult discipline to learn and master. It is not like other nations are churning them out.

What does a list of Australia's genuinely good off spinners look like?

 

[Bletch]

Two tours in a row that great West Indian side got done by so so spinners in Sydney who turned the ball away from the right hander, Tiger was probably on to something.

Trouble is, that by the time the Sydney test came around the Windies had already won the series (in both cases).

 

[the_interloper]

What does a list of Australia's genuinely good off spinners look like?

Ashley Mallett averaged under 30 but had a SR of 75, not sure if that qualifies. Tim May was a good bowler but averaging 34 not sure if that qualifies as "genuinely good". Lyon has a shitload of wickets, I'm sure he does, not sure who else there is?

 

[Gough]

Trouble is, that by the time the Sydney test came around the Windies had already won the series half killed our team (in both cases).

Fixed that.

 

[Borisdog]

I think Head is an excellent Captain, but I’m told that he declined it for this series

Interesting if true, but he'll have his reasons if so.

Maybe he just wants to keep his head in the batting.

There are many possible reasons for a no.

 

[Rabish Binney]

We tried out a bunch in that pre-Warne period. Hohns, Sleep, Mann, Holland. Even resorted to playing regular wicketkeeper, Tim Zoehrer, as a leggie (and he wasn't terrible).

Bill O'Reilly was quoted around that period as saying that a genuine leg-spinner is needed if we were ever going to conquer the might of the Windies of that era. Sadly, though Bill did get to see Warne bowl, he passed away just prior to Warne's breakout series against the Windies. He would have loved to have watched Warney through the 90s - just as Richie did.

Tony Mann is probably more recognised for his test century (105) at Perth in 77/78 when he went in as night watchman.

Was dropped after the 4th test (bagged a pair and took 0-101). Never played test cricket again.

Ironically he was replaced in the test side by Bruce Yardley .

 

[Borisdog]

What does a list of Australia's genuinely good off spinners look like?

At a guess I'd say worse than the legspin list.

 

[big_e]

We tried out a bunch in that pre-Warne period. Hohns, Sleep, Mann, Holland. Even resorted to playing regular wicketkeeper, Tim Zoehrer, as a leggie (and he wasn't terrible).

Bill O'Reilly was quoted around that period as saying that a genuine leg-spinner is needed if we were ever going to conquer the might of the Windies of that era. Sadly, though Bill did get to see Warne bowl, he passed away just prior to Warne's breakout series against the Windies. He would have loved to have watched Warney through the 90s - just as Richie did.

Tim Zoehrer never bowled at test level and he didn't bowl much at first-class level either. He wasn't great. People only remember it because it was an oddity.

 

[Rabish Binney]

We have only had maybe six genuinely good leg spinners ever.

Warne
MacGill
Benaud
O’Reilly
Grimmett
Mailey

Lucky to average one each generation.

It is the most difficult discipline to learn and master. It is not like other nations are churning them out.

Jim Higgs?

22 tests; 66 test wickets @ 31 not too bad but not in the class of those you mention.

 

[sr36]

Ashley Mallett averaged under 30 but had a SR of 75, not sure if that qualifies. Tim May was a good bowler but averaging 34 not sure if that qualifies as "genuinely good". Lyon has a shitload of wickets, I'm sure he does, not sure who else there is?

Bruce Yardley was up there with Mallett, but Lyon got the nickname goat when he got to 142 wickets - most ever by an Aussie office.

 

[Mick F]

Jim Higgs?

22 tests; 66 test wickets @ 31 not too bad but not in the class of those you mention. in the next bracket, so a valid

Certainly in the next bracket, so a worthy name to bring up.