5th Test Border Gavaskar Trophy January 3-7 1000hrs @ the SCG

[Rabish Binney]

Ashley Mallett averaged under 30 but had a SR of 75, not sure if that qualifies. Tim May was a good bowler but averaging 34 not sure if that qualifies as "genuinely good". Lyon has a shitload of wickets, I'm sure he does, not sure who else there is?

Tim May bowled magnificently on the 1993 Ashes tour of England. Made some of the English players (who were bought up on a diet of off spin) look stupid.

Took 21 wickets @ 28. Formed a great combo with Warne on that tour.

 

[Borisdog]

A quick look through the stats for Aussie Offies.

Lyon 539
Bill Johnston 160. A bit of a Funky Miller, bowled both
Hugh Trumble 141
Ash Mallett 132
Bruce Yardley 126
Ian Johnson 109.

I gave 6 cos of Johnston's duality. There's 2 blokes form the turn of last century next, then Tim May, then Funky

 

[the_interloper]

Tim May bowled magnificently on the 1993 Ashes tour of England. Made some of the English players (who were bought up on a diet of off spin) look stupid.

Took 21 wickets @ 28. Formed a great combo with Warne on that tour.

From memory we rolled with May/Warne in the following summer too as first choice bowlers.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Complete (I think) list of test leggies who have taken 25+ wickets and averaged 35 or under:

View attachment 2202615

Just 31 players - 9 AUS, 6 ENG, 5 PAK, 4 IND, 2 SA, 2 WI, 1 AFG, 1 ZIM, 1 SL, 0 NZ.

Note, doesn't include left arm wrist spinners.

Johnny Gleeson was a right handed leggie, played 29 tests in late 60's thru to early 70's and took 93 wickets. Never saw him play, but as a kid I heard the guys on ABC radio always used to talk about him and his prodigious spin and I wondered if he was that good, why didn't he play more tests? Work reasons? Richie would talk about him a bit of TV.

He copied Jack Iverson's leg spinning grip. Jack only played 5 tests in the 1950's but took 21 wickets @15.23. Its still one of the lowest test averages for bowlers who have taken 20+ wickets.

Edit OK he averaged 36.20 so didn't make your list.

John Gleeson (cricketer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Borisdog]

Tim May, on his day, was everything a really top class offie is.

Beautiful drift and drop, turned it and was fairly tall making him a bit tough prospect through the air.

I reckon would've played a large amount of test matches in most other eras.

Did have a bad knee though.

 

[sr36]

A quick look through the stats for Aussie Offies.

Lyon 539
Bill Johnston 160. A bit of a Funky Miller, bowled both
Hugh Trumble 141
Ash Mallett 132
Bruce Yardley 126
Ian Johnson 109.

I gave 6 cos of Johnston's duality. There's 2 blokes form the turn of last century next, then Tim May, then Funky

Bowling spin in Aust has always just been tough going.

Going by this summer's pitches, regardless of what type of spin you bowl, I'd be working on my batting if I was a spinner wanting to play tests. A great like Lyon was a spectator for most of that test series. I think it'll become an all-rounders gig in Aussie conditions unless we have one of the rare rippers come along.

 

[PhatBoy]

Tim May bowled magnificently on the 1993 Ashes tour of England. Made some of the English players (who were bought up on a diet of off spin) look stupid.

Took 21 wickets @ 28. Formed a great combo with Warne on that tour.

They were brought up on it but I would nominate Gooch and, oddly, Atherton, and Thorpe as good test players of spin and Thorpe didn’t come in until halfway through the series.

Hick I guess you would say was a good player of it in theory but at test level just couldn’t come to grips with any bowling.

Gatting had a good average in India but it was based largely around one good innings. Remove that and he averaged about 30 in Asia, he just looked at sea poking at the ball.

Gooch was a really good player of spin in general as Warnie always noted, and Atherton though he never played much in Asia was noted for being a guy who when he DID get through the new ball (which was rare) seemed to read Warne as well as most, though still got out to him plenty.

Thorpe played him and May pretty well.

Stewart and Smith were both incredible against pace bowling but boy were they hopeless against spin. Hard hands bat too far in front of the pad at times, indecisive footwork.

Hussain was the other one and he DID have some genuine success against Warne at times, two centuries in 1997 and for an England player of his era had a good record in and against Australia. Had a slightly odd method sometimes but seemed to work MOST of the time but not really in that series, averaged 30 but helped by some not outs - only passed 50 once. They got the better of him

 

[Black Diamond]

What does a list of Australia's genuinely good off spinners look like?

Not great either. But it will always be more tempting for Shield sides to play them, they are easier to captain, and they can bowl low and slow which wrist spinners cannot do as well. See O’Keefe and Kuhnemann.

 

[sr36]

Not great either. But it will always be more tempting for Shield sides to play them, they are easier to captain, and they can bowl low and slow which wrist spinners cannot do as well. See O’Keefe and Kuhnemann.

Kuhnemann moved state as he couldn't get a game ahead of Swepson, but I agree with you in general.

I do think a big factor is also because we've switched to juicier pitches so spinners role is more control through the later overs rather than wicket taking, which is part of what Zampa was referring to I think.

We're pretty evenly spread at state level at the moment with Pope, Sangha and Swepson as leggies, Murphy, Lyon and Riocc... as offies and Kuhnemann as a left armer.

 

[Black Diamond]

Kuhnemann moved state as he couldn't get a game ahead of Swepson, but I agree with you in general.

Had their ages been reversed I don’t think Swepson would displace Kuhnemann.

I totally get why the Australian selectors might now prefer him over Swepson. It is unfortunate though. Can even understand why they might want him over Murphy.

People lose their shit when a wrist spinner is taken over the fence. Warne debuting today (or even under Ponting) would have failed. He was very lucky to have Higgs on the selection panel and that Border was very patient.

Is QLD the only state right now whose first choice spinner is a wrist spinner? Says a lot about the attitude to, and aptitude for developing players.

 

[sr36]

Had their ages been reversed I don’t think Swepson would displace Kuhnemann.

I totally get why the Australian selectors might now prefer him over Swepson. It is unfortunate though. Can even understand why they might want him over Murphy.

People lose their shit when a wrist spinner is taken over the fence. Warne debuting today (or even under Ponting) would have failed. He was very lucky to have Higgs on the selection panel and that Border was very patient.

Is QLD the only state right now whose first choice spinner is a wrist spinner? Says a lot about the attitude to, and aptitude for developing players.

We're actually pretty evenly spread at state level at the moment with Pope, Sangha and Swepson as leggies, Murphy, Lyon and Riocc... as offies and Kuhnemann as a left armer.

In terms of Kuhnemann over Swepson etc. from the Aussie selectors, I think that's purely about Asian conditions, where on lots of pitches straight skidders take a lot of wickets - doing more damage than turn and bounce.

 

[Borisdog]

Had their ages been reversed I don’t think Swepson would displace Kuhnemann.

I totally get why the Australian selectors might now prefer him over Swepson. It is unfortunate though. Can even understand why they might want him over Murphy.

People lose their shit when a wrist spinner is taken over the fence. Warne debuting today (or even under Ponting) would have failed. He was very lucky to have Higgs on the selection panel and that Border was very patient.

Is QLD the only state right now whose first choice spinner is a wrist spinner? Says a lot about the attitude to, and aptitude for developing players.

You're drawing a long bow to say Warne would've failed debuting "today".

It was brutally obvious to most cricket watchers that saw him in his first games that he was something special.

He bowled pretty well in both Sydney and Adelaide in his first 2 games, and spun it on what were both VERY flat pitches.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I, for one, knew we had something with a lot of potential, who was well and truly worth sticking with for a bit. And I don't reckon I was alone.

Didn't take him too long to show it at Test level either, did OK in Sri Lanka, then REALLY announced himself at the MCG, about 11 months after his debut.

 

[Black Diamond]

You're drawing a long bow to say Warne would've failed debuting "today".

It was brutally obvious to most cricket watchers that saw him in his first games that he was something special.

He bowled pretty well in both Sydney and Adelaide in his first 2 games, and spun it on what were both VERY flat pitches.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I, for one, knew we had something with a lot of potential, who was well and truly worth sticking with for a bit. And I don't reckon I was alone.

Didn't take him too long to show it at Test level either, did OK in Sri Lanka, then REALLY announced himself at the MCG, about 11 months after his debut.

I am not disputing that Warne showed something early on.

I am saying the infrastructure around wouldn’t support his development today.

 

[sr36]

I am not disputing that Warne showed something early on.

I am saying the infrastructure around wouldn’t support his development today.

More and better infrastructure today with far more development opportunities for players. He would have been rubbing shoulders with and learning from a far wider variety of leggies. But the big thing would be he would have arrived on the international scene with better drilled variations but his stock leggie wouldn't have probably been as drilled. And test cricket is still about landing the stock ball, so it might have taken him a bit longer to have the complete control over his leggie that he had.

The other factor today is better prep and rehab. Warney lost a bit of fizz after the shoulder injury. He might have been even better today due to better body and better variations.

 

[PhatBoy]

You're drawing a long bow to say Warne would've failed debuting "today".

It was brutally obvious to most cricket watchers that saw him in his first games that he was something special.

He bowled pretty well in both Sydney and Adelaide in his first 2 games, and spun it on what were both VERY flat pitches.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I, for one, knew we had something with a lot of potential, who was well and truly worth sticking with for a bit. And I don't reckon I was alone.

Didn't take him too long to show it at Test level either, did OK in Sri Lanka, then REALLY announced himself at the MCG, about 11 months after his debut.

Warne also debuted against an Indian team back when they were at their absolute zenith as a side who could play spin bowling. Tendulkar was a master obviously even at that age, Vensarkar averaged 55 in India, Azharuddin averaged 55 in India, the all-rounders Dev and Shastri averaged 38 in India, Srikkanth averaged 10 more at home than away.

Aside from Sanjay Manjrekar who barely got one off the square all series anyway, these guys dined on spin bowling. Warne could have been in his 100th test and at that stage it might not have mattered. He looked fine and kept tossing the ball up the way he would end up doing his whole career and if memory serves the commentators made note of it at the time that he still bowled well

 

[Borisdog]

More and better infrastructure today with far more development opportunities for players. He would have been rubbing shoulders with and learning from a far wider variety of leggies. But the big thing would be he would have arrived on the international scene with better drilled variations but his stock leggie wouldn't have probably been as drilled. And test cricket is still about landing the stock ball, so it might have taken him a bit longer to have the complete control over his leggie that he had.

The other factor today is better prep and rehab. Warney lost a bit of fizz after the shoulder injury. He might have been even better today due to better body and better variations.

The bloke was a freak. Freaks succeed in ANY era. He was also very well taught by a bloke that knew what he was talking about. TJ wasn't the bowler that his pupil was, but he sure knew WHAT to teach. You don't have to be a magnificent practitioner to be a great teacher. All it takes is good knowledge and a good student.

The real thing he lost with the shoulder injury was the flipper. There were a couple of years prior to his shoulder injury where there wasn't a batsman in Test cricket could pick it.

Probably the most "lethal" ball I've seen from any bowler, of any type, in my time. Notable close seconds, Wasim and Waqar reverse yorkers.

 

[Pistol Night]

The bloke was a freak. Freaks succeed in ANY era. He was also very well taught by a bloke that knew what he was talking about. TJ wasn't the bowler that his pupil was, but he sure knew WHAT to teach. You don't have to be a magnificent practitioner to be a great teacher. All it takes is good knowledge and a good student.

The real thing he lost with the shoulder injury was the flipper. There were a couple of years prior to his shoulder injury where there wasn't a batsman in Test cricket could pick it.

Probably the most "lethal" ball I've seen from any bowler, of any type, in my time. Notable close seconds, Wasim and Waqar reverse yorkers.

You got me thinking so i thought id reminisce. Beautifully deadly

 

[010203]

Zampa has a point about the sad lack of top quality leg spinners across the world in Test cricket. Unfortunately for him, he had no hope of being picked. If they were going to take a leg spinner, it would have been Mitch Swepson but his numbers don't stack up this season.

 

[Borisdog]

You got me thinking so i thought id reminisce. Beautifully deadly

The one that really sticks with me was Richie Richardson, and not in that footage!!! Richie had no idea. Vs WI in 92/3 I'd say at MCG. Started a big collapse and that was Warne's real break out match.

It made him look third rate, and he was far from it.

 

[Lunchtime]

With a First-Class average of 45 or 46...Adam Zampa should be nowhere near the Australian Test team. In a stronger era of Australian cricket, he wouldn't even be playing ODI cricket for Australia. He should be thankful he plays white ball cricket for Australia.

Just on my point earlier. In the 1990s and mid 2000s, in terms of wrist-spinners, Australian cricket had:

Shane Warne.
Stuart MacGill.
Brad Hogg.
Peter McIntyre.

So straight away there was depth for wrist spinners in Australian cricket, its just that MacGill, Hogg and McIntyre were in Shane Warne's shadow because he was a freak.

MacGill played 44 Test's / 3 ODI's. Hogg played 7 Test's / 123 ODI's and McIntyre played 2 Test's / 0 ODI's.

They'd all get a look in now for Test and ODI/T20I matches before Zampa.

Plus the bonus with Hogg was that he was a handy lower batsman too who averaged 35 in First-Class cricket.

 

[western royboy]

Johnny Gleeson was a right handed leggie, played 29 tests in late 60's thru to early 70's and took 93 wickets. Never saw him play, but as a kid I heard the guys on ABC radio always used to talk about him and his prodigious spin and I wondered if he was that good, why didn't he play more tests? Work reasons? Richie would talk about him a bit of TV.

He copied Jack Iverson's leg spinning grip. Jack only played 5 tests in the 1950's but took 21 wickets @15.23. Its still one of the lowest test averages for bowlers who have taken 20+ wickets.

Edit OK he averaged 36.20 so didn't make your list.

John Gleeson (cricketer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

John “Cho” Gleeson was a folded finger spinner rather than a leggie. He flicked the ball off his middle finger rather than bowling it like a normal leg or off spinner thus he could spin the ball both ways. I became familiar with him after reading the Ian Chappell books as a kid “Chappelli has the last laugh” and “Chappelli laughs again” - bit of a character and very unconventional. The stories about him are quite funny.

 

[Lunchtime]

Zampa has a point about the sad lack of top quality leg spinners across the world in Test cricket. Unfortunately for him, he had no hope of being picked. If they were going to take a leg spinner, it would have been Mitch Swepson but his numbers don't stack up this season.

Yep in the 1990s through to the mid 2000s in world cricket there was:

Shane Warne.
Stuart MacGill.
Anil Kumble.
Mushtaq Ahmed.
Paul Adams.

These are the names that stick out in my mind from memory. That's 5 good bowlers.....wrist spin bowlers right there.

 

[sr36]

The one that really sticks with me was Richie Richardson, and not in that footage!!! Richie had no idea. Vs WI in 92/3 I'd say at MCG. Started a big collapse and that was Warne's real break out match.

It made him look third rate, and he was far from it.

Was that one a flipper or a grubber that just didn't bounce?

 

[PhatBoy]

The one that really sticks with me was Richie Richardson, and not in that footage!!! Richie had no idea. Vs WI in 92/3 I'd say at MCG. Started a big collapse and that was Warne's real break out match.

It made him look third rate, and he was far from it.

Yep took 7-fer and just destroyed us. Sir Richie was using the Bradman bat

 

[PhatBoy]

Was that one a flipper or a grubber that just didn't bounce?

It kept very low but it was a flipper: it seemed to gather pace like a seam bowler