5th Test Border Gavaskar Trophy January 3-7 1000hrs @ the SCG

[Borisdog]

Had their ages been reversed I don’t think Swepson would displace Kuhnemann.

I totally get why the Australian selectors might now prefer him over Swepson. It is unfortunate though. Can even understand why they might want him over Murphy.

People lose their shit when a wrist spinner is taken over the fence. Warne debuting today (or even under Ponting) would have failed. He was very lucky to have Higgs on the selection panel and that Border was very patient.

Is QLD the only state right now whose first choice spinner is a wrist spinner? Says a lot about the attitude to, and aptitude for developing players.

You're drawing a long bow to say Warne would've failed debuting "today".

It was brutally obvious to most cricket watchers that saw him in his first games that he was something special.

He bowled pretty well in both Sydney and Adelaide in his first 2 games, and spun it on what were both VERY flat pitches.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I, for one, knew we had something with a lot of potential, who was well and truly worth sticking with for a bit. And I don't reckon I was alone.

Didn't take him too long to show it at Test level either, did OK in Sri Lanka, then REALLY announced himself at the MCG, about 11 months after his debut.

 

[Black Diamond]

You're drawing a long bow to say Warne would've failed debuting "today".

It was brutally obvious to most cricket watchers that saw him in his first games that he was something special.

He bowled pretty well in both Sydney and Adelaide in his first 2 games, and spun it on what were both VERY flat pitches.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I, for one, knew we had something with a lot of potential, who was well and truly worth sticking with for a bit. And I don't reckon I was alone.

Didn't take him too long to show it at Test level either, did OK in Sri Lanka, then REALLY announced himself at the MCG, about 11 months after his debut.

I am not disputing that Warne showed something early on.

I am saying the infrastructure around wouldn’t support his development today.

 

[sr36]

I am not disputing that Warne showed something early on.

I am saying the infrastructure around wouldn’t support his development today.

More and better infrastructure today with far more development opportunities for players. He would have been rubbing shoulders with and learning from a far wider variety of leggies. But the big thing would be he would have arrived on the international scene with better drilled variations but his stock leggie wouldn't have probably been as drilled. And test cricket is still about landing the stock ball, so it might have taken him a bit longer to have the complete control over his leggie that he had.

The other factor today is better prep and rehab. Warney lost a bit of fizz after the shoulder injury. He might have been even better today due to better body and better variations.

 

[PhatBoy]

You're drawing a long bow to say Warne would've failed debuting "today".

It was brutally obvious to most cricket watchers that saw him in his first games that he was something special.

He bowled pretty well in both Sydney and Adelaide in his first 2 games, and spun it on what were both VERY flat pitches.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I, for one, knew we had something with a lot of potential, who was well and truly worth sticking with for a bit. And I don't reckon I was alone.

Didn't take him too long to show it at Test level either, did OK in Sri Lanka, then REALLY announced himself at the MCG, about 11 months after his debut.

Warne also debuted against an Indian team back when they were at their absolute zenith as a side who could play spin bowling. Tendulkar was a master obviously even at that age, Vensarkar averaged 55 in India, Azharuddin averaged 55 in India, the all-rounders Dev and Shastri averaged 38 in India, Srikkanth averaged 10 more at home than away.

Aside from Sanjay Manjrekar who barely got one off the square all series anyway, these guys dined on spin bowling. Warne could have been in his 100th test and at that stage it might not have mattered. He looked fine and kept tossing the ball up the way he would end up doing his whole career and if memory serves the commentators made note of it at the time that he still bowled well

 

[Borisdog]

More and better infrastructure today with far more development opportunities for players. He would have been rubbing shoulders with and learning from a far wider variety of leggies. But the big thing would be he would have arrived on the international scene with better drilled variations but his stock leggie wouldn't have probably been as drilled. And test cricket is still about landing the stock ball, so it might have taken him a bit longer to have the complete control over his leggie that he had.

The other factor today is better prep and rehab. Warney lost a bit of fizz after the shoulder injury. He might have been even better today due to better body and better variations.

The bloke was a freak. Freaks succeed in ANY era. He was also very well taught by a bloke that knew what he was talking about. TJ wasn't the bowler that his pupil was, but he sure knew WHAT to teach. You don't have to be a magnificent practitioner to be a great teacher. All it takes is good knowledge and a good student.

The real thing he lost with the shoulder injury was the flipper. There were a couple of years prior to his shoulder injury where there wasn't a batsman in Test cricket could pick it.

Probably the most "lethal" ball I've seen from any bowler, of any type, in my time. Notable close seconds, Wasim and Waqar reverse yorkers.

 

[Pistol Night]

The bloke was a freak. Freaks succeed in ANY era. He was also very well taught by a bloke that knew what he was talking about. TJ wasn't the bowler that his pupil was, but he sure knew WHAT to teach. You don't have to be a magnificent practitioner to be a great teacher. All it takes is good knowledge and a good student.

The real thing he lost with the shoulder injury was the flipper. There were a couple of years prior to his shoulder injury where there wasn't a batsman in Test cricket could pick it.

Probably the most "lethal" ball I've seen from any bowler, of any type, in my time. Notable close seconds, Wasim and Waqar reverse yorkers.

You got me thinking so i thought id reminisce. Beautifully deadly

 

[010203]

Zampa has a point about the sad lack of top quality leg spinners across the world in Test cricket. Unfortunately for him, he had no hope of being picked. If they were going to take a leg spinner, it would have been Mitch Swepson but his numbers don't stack up this season.

 

[Borisdog]

You got me thinking so i thought id reminisce. Beautifully deadly

The one that really sticks with me was Richie Richardson, and not in that footage!!! Richie had no idea. Vs WI in 92/3 I'd say at MCG. Started a big collapse and that was Warne's real break out match.

It made him look third rate, and he was far from it.

 

[Lunchtime]

With a First-Class average of 45 or 46...Adam Zampa should be nowhere near the Australian Test team. In a stronger era of Australian cricket, he wouldn't even be playing ODI cricket for Australia. He should be thankful he plays white ball cricket for Australia.

Just on my point earlier. In the 1990s and mid 2000s, in terms of wrist-spinners, Australian cricket had:

Shane Warne.
Stuart MacGill.
Brad Hogg.
Peter McIntyre.

So straight away there was depth for wrist spinners in Australian cricket, its just that MacGill, Hogg and McIntyre were in Shane Warne's shadow because he was a freak.

MacGill played 44 Test's / 3 ODI's. Hogg played 7 Test's / 123 ODI's and McIntyre played 2 Test's / 0 ODI's.

They'd all get a look in now for Test and ODI/T20I matches before Zampa.

Plus the bonus with Hogg was that he was a handy lower batsman too who averaged 35 in First-Class cricket.

 

[western royboy]

Johnny Gleeson was a right handed leggie, played 29 tests in late 60's thru to early 70's and took 93 wickets. Never saw him play, but as a kid I heard the guys on ABC radio always used to talk about him and his prodigious spin and I wondered if he was that good, why didn't he play more tests? Work reasons? Richie would talk about him a bit of TV.

He copied Jack Iverson's leg spinning grip. Jack only played 5 tests in the 1950's but took 21 wickets @15.23. Its still one of the lowest test averages for bowlers who have taken 20+ wickets.

Edit OK he averaged 36.20 so didn't make your list.

John Gleeson (cricketer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

John “Cho” Gleeson was a folded finger spinner rather than a leggie. He flicked the ball off his middle finger rather than bowling it like a normal leg or off spinner thus he could spin the ball both ways. I became familiar with him after reading the Ian Chappell books as a kid “Chappelli has the last laugh” and “Chappelli laughs again” - bit of a character and very unconventional. The stories about him are quite funny.

 

[Lunchtime]

Zampa has a point about the sad lack of top quality leg spinners across the world in Test cricket. Unfortunately for him, he had no hope of being picked. If they were going to take a leg spinner, it would have been Mitch Swepson but his numbers don't stack up this season.

Yep in the 1990s through to the mid 2000s in world cricket there was:

Shane Warne.
Stuart MacGill.
Anil Kumble.
Mushtaq Ahmed.
Paul Adams.

These are the names that stick out in my mind from memory. That's 5 good bowlers.....wrist spin bowlers right there.

 

[sr36]

The one that really sticks with me was Richie Richardson, and not in that footage!!! Richie had no idea. Vs WI in 92/3 I'd say at MCG. Started a big collapse and that was Warne's real break out match.

It made him look third rate, and he was far from it.

Was that one a flipper or a grubber that just didn't bounce?

 

[PhatBoy]

The one that really sticks with me was Richie Richardson, and not in that footage!!! Richie had no idea. Vs WI in 92/3 I'd say at MCG. Started a big collapse and that was Warne's real break out match.

It made him look third rate, and he was far from it.

Yep took 7-fer and just destroyed us. Sir Richie was using the Bradman bat

 

[PhatBoy]

Was that one a flipper or a grubber that just didn't bounce?

It kept very low but it was a flipper: it seemed to gather pace like a seam bowler

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

John “Cho” Gleeson was a folded finger spinner rather than a leggie. He flicked the ball off his middle finger rather than bowling it like a normal leg or off spinner thus he could spin the ball both ways. I became familiar with him after reading the Ian Chappell books as a kid “Chappelli has the last laugh” and “Chappelli laughs again” - bit of a character and very unconventional. The stories about him are quite funny.

Thanks for that info. He became a bit of a mythical character to me because of the way the guys on ABC radio's cricket coverage used to talk about him, in particular Adelaide and Sydney based guys They always reffered to him as a leggie. Might have to dig up Chappelli's books and read about him.

 

[sr36]

Just on my point earlier. In the 1990s and mid 2000s, in terms of wrist-spinners, Australian cricket had:

Shane Warne.
Stuart MacGill.
Brad Hogg.
Peter McIntyre.

So straight away there was depth for wrist spinners in Australian cricket, its just that MacGill, Hogg and McIntyre were in Shane Warne's shadow because he was a freak.

MacGill played 44 Test's / 3 ODI's. Hogg played 7 Test's / 123 ODI's and McIntyre played 2 Test's / 0 ODI's.

They'd all get a look in now for Test and ODI/T20I matches before Zampa.

Plus the bonus with Hogg was that he was a handy lower batsman too who averaged 35 in First-Class cricket.

Hogg and McIntyre averaged 40 and 39 at first class level. They wouldn't have gotten a look in for tests now. And Zampa is a good one day bowler.

 

[Lunchtime]

Hogg and McIntyre averaged 40 and 39 at first class level. They wouldn't have gotten a look in for tests now. And Zampa is a good one day bowler.

No they'd got a look in before Zampa...he bowls flat. His wrong-un is the only ball that turns for him. Zampa averages 46 in First-Class cricket.

 

[sr36]

No they'd got a look in before Zampa...he bowls flat. His wrong-un is the only ball that turns for him. Zampa averages 46 in First-Class cricket.

The good modern short form leggies all bowl flat. Rashid Khan sends them down at 100km/h.

 

[Lunchtime]

Was that one a flipper or a grubber that just didn't bounce?

The Flipper is a very difficult ball to bowl. I was a wrist spinner and I couldn't bowl it consistently. It puts pressure on the fingers and shoulder and upon release it has to be squeezed out like a pip, like clicking your fingers.

But it's a very effective ball. Batters will go back to the ball but the ball skids through low thus creating opportunities for bowled or LBW.

Shane Warne used to bowl the Flipper well before he had shoulder surgery. He still used to bowl in occasions but not as much. He did though bowl a "slider"....a ball out of the front of the hand.

Brad Hogg also used to bowl thr traditional Flipper (like Warne) as well. In the 2003 World Cup he bowled Andy Flower with a great Flipper....great ball. He also bowled Surav Ganguly in a Test match too.

But yeah the Flipper is a difficult ball to bowl. Clarrie Grimmett has been credited with creating the Flipper. It took him several years to master it before he bowled it in games.

Clarrie Grimmett | Sport Australia Hall of Fame

Clarrie Grimmett remains one of the most remarkable men ever to play cricket for Australia as one of the great spin bowlers of the 1920s and 30s. He was born in Dunedin on the South Island of New Zealand, he practiced tirelessly at the Basin Reserve and first attracted attention at 15 when he took…

sahof.org.au

 

[Lunchtime]

The good modern short form leggies all bowl flat. Rashid Khan sends them down at 100km/h.

Not in First-Class cricket.

 

[sr36]

Not in First-Class cricket.

Zampa just shouldn't be in the conversation in terms of tests. Brad Hogg neither really Good one day bowlers though.

 

[010203]

You got me thinking so i thought id reminisce. Beautifully deadly

2:15 was more of a slider than a flipper. So was the LBW against the West Indies that Simon Taufel gave out. He was so good he bamboozled the creator of that video.

 

[Lunchtime]

Zampa just shouldn't be in the conversation in terms of tests. Brad Hogg neither really Good one day bowlers though.

Hogg started his career as a middle-order batsman and bowled wrist-spin later on.

Hogg gets a game for the Test team in this era. So would MacGill of course and McIntyre. MacGill would be first choice (after Warney) of course.

I just think Hogg is a better all round bowler than Zampa who just darts it in and hardly turns the ball (apart from his wrong-un). Hogg turned the ball both ways and had a bigger repertoire.

His batting would also be taken into consideration as well if he played these days.

 

[nobbyiscool]

The Flipper is a very difficult ball to bowl. I was a wrist spinner and I couldn't bowl it consistently. It puts pressure on the fingers and shoulder and upon release it has to be squeezed out like a pipe, like clicking your fingers.

But it's a very effective ball. Batters will go back to the ball but the ball skids through low thus creating opportunities for bowled or LBW.

Shane Warne used to bowl the Flipper well before he had shoulder surgery. He still used to bowl in occasions but not as much. He did though bowl a "slider"....a ball out of the front of the hand.

Brad Hogg also used to bowl thr traditional Flipper (like Warne) as well. In the 2003 World Cup he bowled Andy Flower with a great Flipper....great ball. He also bowled Surav Ganguly in a Test match too.

But yeah the Flipper is a difficult ball to bowl. Clarrie Grimmett has been credited with creating the Flipper. It took him several years to master it before he bowled it in games.

Clarrie Grimmett | Sport Australia Hall of Fame

Clarrie Grimmett remains one of the most remarkable men ever to play cricket for Australia as one of the great spin bowlers of the 1920s and 30s. He was born in Dunedin on the South Island of New Zealand, he practiced tirelessly at the Basin Reserve and first attracted attention at 15 when he took…

sahof.org.au

In my youth I must've watched the CommBank/Channel 9 cricket coaching video until I wore it out. Richie Benaud spoke of the flipper as something that you shouldn't even try until your late teens, until your shoulder was "fully grown" and you had a bit more coordination in your fingers.

A decade later I knew what he meant. I was a hack leggie, it's not something that I pretend to put on my non-existent cricket resume, but in my late teens I figured out how to bowl it (though not land it)... and tbh I'm not sure it's something that anyone at a junior level or Sunday league level should be bowling, it's just too much strain.

Fox Sports were recently doing a countdown of Warne's top 50 wickets. I was surprised to see a handful of wrong-uns amongst them, it wasn't a ball I remembered him using much as a weapon.

 

[nobbyiscool]

MacGill would be first choice (after Warney) of course.

We should've really been turning the country upside down to find a (post Warne), post Macgill successor.

You never know who/what could've turned up in someone's car boot.