5th Test Border Gavaskar Trophy January 3-7 1000hrs @ the SCG

[RussellEbertHandball]

John “Cho” Gleeson was a folded finger spinner rather than a leggie. He flicked the ball off his middle finger rather than bowling it like a normal leg or off spinner thus he could spin the ball both ways. I became familiar with him after reading the Ian Chappell books as a kid “Chappelli has the last laugh” and “Chappelli laughs again” - bit of a character and very unconventional. The stories about him are quite funny.

Thanks for that info. He became a bit of a mythical character to me because of the way the guys on ABC radio's cricket coverage used to talk about him, in particular Adelaide and Sydney based guys They always reffered to him as a leggie. Might have to dig up Chappelli's books and read about him.

 

[sr36]

Just on my point earlier. In the 1990s and mid 2000s, in terms of wrist-spinners, Australian cricket had:

Shane Warne.
Stuart MacGill.
Brad Hogg.
Peter McIntyre.

So straight away there was depth for wrist spinners in Australian cricket, its just that MacGill, Hogg and McIntyre were in Shane Warne's shadow because he was a freak.

MacGill played 44 Test's / 3 ODI's. Hogg played 7 Test's / 123 ODI's and McIntyre played 2 Test's / 0 ODI's.

They'd all get a look in now for Test and ODI/T20I matches before Zampa.

Plus the bonus with Hogg was that he was a handy lower batsman too who averaged 35 in First-Class cricket.

Hogg and McIntyre averaged 40 and 39 at first class level. They wouldn't have gotten a look in for tests now. And Zampa is a good one day bowler.

 

[Lunchtime]

Hogg and McIntyre averaged 40 and 39 at first class level. They wouldn't have gotten a look in for tests now. And Zampa is a good one day bowler.

No they'd got a look in before Zampa...he bowls flat. His wrong-un is the only ball that turns for him. Zampa averages 46 in First-Class cricket.

 

[sr36]

No they'd got a look in before Zampa...he bowls flat. His wrong-un is the only ball that turns for him. Zampa averages 46 in First-Class cricket.

The good modern short form leggies all bowl flat. Rashid Khan sends them down at 100km/h.

 

[Lunchtime]

Was that one a flipper or a grubber that just didn't bounce?

The Flipper is a very difficult ball to bowl. I was a wrist spinner and I couldn't bowl it consistently. It puts pressure on the fingers and shoulder and upon release it has to be squeezed out like a pip, like clicking your fingers.

But it's a very effective ball. Batters will go back to the ball but the ball skids through low thus creating opportunities for bowled or LBW.

Shane Warne used to bowl the Flipper well before he had shoulder surgery. He still used to bowl in occasions but not as much. He did though bowl a "slider"....a ball out of the front of the hand.

Brad Hogg also used to bowl thr traditional Flipper (like Warne) as well. In the 2003 World Cup he bowled Andy Flower with a great Flipper....great ball. He also bowled Surav Ganguly in a Test match too.

But yeah the Flipper is a difficult ball to bowl. Clarrie Grimmett has been credited with creating the Flipper. It took him several years to master it before he bowled it in games.

Clarrie Grimmett | Sport Australia Hall of Fame

Clarrie Grimmett remains one of the most remarkable men ever to play cricket for Australia as one of the great spin bowlers of the 1920s and 30s. He was born in Dunedin on the South Island of New Zealand, he practiced tirelessly at the Basin Reserve and first attracted attention at 15 when he took…

sahof.org.au

 

[Lunchtime]

The good modern short form leggies all bowl flat. Rashid Khan sends them down at 100km/h.

Not in First-Class cricket.

 

[sr36]

Not in First-Class cricket.

Zampa just shouldn't be in the conversation in terms of tests. Brad Hogg neither really Good one day bowlers though.

 

[010203]

You got me thinking so i thought id reminisce. Beautifully deadly

2:15 was more of a slider than a flipper. So was the LBW against the West Indies that Simon Taufel gave out. He was so good he bamboozled the creator of that video.

 

[Lunchtime]

Zampa just shouldn't be in the conversation in terms of tests. Brad Hogg neither really Good one day bowlers though.

Hogg started his career as a middle-order batsman and bowled wrist-spin later on.

Hogg gets a game for the Test team in this era. So would MacGill of course and McIntyre. MacGill would be first choice (after Warney) of course.

I just think Hogg is a better all round bowler than Zampa who just darts it in and hardly turns the ball (apart from his wrong-un). Hogg turned the ball both ways and had a bigger repertoire.

His batting would also be taken into consideration as well if he played these days.

 

[nobbyiscool]

The Flipper is a very difficult ball to bowl. I was a wrist spinner and I couldn't bowl it consistently. It puts pressure on the fingers and shoulder and upon release it has to be squeezed out like a pipe, like clicking your fingers.

But it's a very effective ball. Batters will go back to the ball but the ball skids through low thus creating opportunities for bowled or LBW.

Shane Warne used to bowl the Flipper well before he had shoulder surgery. He still used to bowl in occasions but not as much. He did though bowl a "slider"....a ball out of the front of the hand.

Brad Hogg also used to bowl thr traditional Flipper (like Warne) as well. In the 2003 World Cup he bowled Andy Flower with a great Flipper....great ball. He also bowled Surav Ganguly in a Test match too.

But yeah the Flipper is a difficult ball to bowl. Clarrie Grimmett has been credited with creating the Flipper. It took him several years to master it before he bowled it in games.

Clarrie Grimmett | Sport Australia Hall of Fame

Clarrie Grimmett remains one of the most remarkable men ever to play cricket for Australia as one of the great spin bowlers of the 1920s and 30s. He was born in Dunedin on the South Island of New Zealand, he practiced tirelessly at the Basin Reserve and first attracted attention at 15 when he took…

sahof.org.au

In my youth I must've watched the CommBank/Channel 9 cricket coaching video until I wore it out. Richie Benaud spoke of the flipper as something that you shouldn't even try until your late teens, until your shoulder was "fully grown" and you had a bit more coordination in your fingers.

A decade later I knew what he meant. I was a hack leggie, it's not something that I pretend to put on my non-existent cricket resume, but in my late teens I figured out how to bowl it (though not land it)... and tbh I'm not sure it's something that anyone at a junior level or Sunday league level should be bowling, it's just too much strain.

Fox Sports were recently doing a countdown of Warne's top 50 wickets. I was surprised to see a handful of wrong-uns amongst them, it wasn't a ball I remembered him using much as a weapon.

 

[nobbyiscool]

MacGill would be first choice (after Warney) of course.

We should've really been turning the country upside down to find a (post Warne), post Macgill successor.

You never know who/what could've turned up in someone's car boot.

 

[sr36]

Hogg started his career as a middle-order batsman and bowled wrist-spin later on.

Hogg gets a game for the Test team in this era. So would MacGill of course and McIntyre. MacGill would be first choice (after Warney) of course.

I just think Hogg is a better all round bowler than Zampa who just darts it in and hardly turns the ball (apart from his wrong-un). Hogg turned the ball both ways and had a bigger repertoire.

His batting would also be taken into consideration as well if he played these days.

Not ahead of Lyon he doesn't. And in the subcontinent when we play two spinners, on the turners we want the accuracy of finger spinners - preferably ones who can get it to slide on as well as turn and bounce.

 

[Lunchtime]

In my youth I must've watched the CommBank/Channel 9 cricket coaching video until I wore it out. Richie Benaud spoke of the flipper as something that you shouldn't even try until your late teens, until your shoulder was "fully grown" and you had a bit more coordination in your fingers.

A decade later I knew what he meant. I was a hack leggie, it's not something that I pretend to put on my non-existent cricket resume, but in my late teens I figured out how to bowl it (though not land it)... and tbh I'm not sure it's something that anyone at a junior level or Sunday league level should be bowling, it's just too much strain.

Fox Sports were recently doing a countdown of Warne's top 50 wickets. I was surprised to see a handful of wrong-uns amongst them, it wasn't a ball I remembered him using much as a weapon.

Richie Benaud was spot on. I didn't start bowling the Flipper until my late teens and he confirmed what i said above...it does put pressure on your shoulder/fingers.

Yeah Shane Warne's wrong-un wasn't his best ball.

 

[Lunchtime]

Not ahead of Lyon he doesn't. And in the subcontinent when we play two spinners, on the turners we want the accuracy of finger spinners - preferably ones who can get it to slide on as well as turn and bounce.

Hogg was more dynamic than Lyon. Lyon is a bit one dimensional but is accurate most of the time.

 

[Lunchtime]

We should've really been turning the country upside down to find a (post Warne), post Macgill successor.

You never know who/what could've turned up in someone's car boot.

Fact is....that was a bygone era the 1990s through to the mid 2000s. Those 4 wrist-spinners....strong depth and it was led by the freak Shane Warne.

 

[Lunchtime]

Not ahead of Lyon he doesn't. And in the subcontinent when we play two spinners, on the turners we want the accuracy of finger spinners - preferably ones who can get it to slide on as well as turn and bounce.

You'd be taking Hogg to the subcontinent along with Lyon if it was a "what if" scenario. His batting would also come into consideration - underrated lower order batsman he was.

 

[sr36]

Hogg was more dynamic than Lyon. Lyon is a bit one dimensional but is accurate most of the time.

Lyon's test record is miles above Hogg's first class record. He doesn't belong in the same conversation. Lyon might not be exciting, but he is a great.

 

[nobbyiscool]

Fact is....that was a bygone era the 1990s through to the mid 2000s. Those 4 wrist-spinners....strong depth and it was led by the freak Shane Warne.

Probably focus less on the laboured point in my first sentence, which only served as a means to get to the incredible gag that formed my second sentence

 

[Lunchtime]

Lyon's test record is miles above Hogg's first class record. He doesn't belong in the same conversation. Lyon might not be exciting, but he is a great.

I wouldn't call Lyon a great. He's just a good off-spin bowler. Lara and Tendulkar would of taken him to the cleaners.

 

[DaRick]

I wouldn't call Lyon a great. He's just a good off-spin bowler. Lara and Tendulkar would of taken him to the cleaners.

Those two took every spinner to the cleaners in full flight.

 

[Lunchtime]

Those two took every spinner to the cleaners in full flight.

Yep. Harder era of world Test cricket then.

 

[Borisdog]

2:15 was more of a slider than a flipper. So was the LBW against the West Indies that Simon Taufel gave our. He was so good he bamboozled the creator of that video.

Yeah there’s no doubt that a few in that footage weren’t genuine flippers.

Anything that went down the pitch “floating” certainly wasn’t, and there was a few of them in the footage.

Anything that nailed the Saffers generally was, that first 3 or 4 years of his career was when he REALLY bowled it , after that the shoulder was troubling him too much to bowl it effectively.

 

[Lunchtime]

Yeah there’s no doubt that a few in that footage weren’t genuine flippers.

Anything that went down the pitch “floating” certainly wasn’t, and there was a few of them in the footage.

Anything that nailed the Saffers generally was, that first 3 or 4 years of his career was when he REALLY bowled it , after that the shoulder was troubling him too much to bowl it effectively.

The Flipper has a quicker trajectory and skids low too.

The Slider will have flight but then not turn as it pitches and goes straight on.

 

[nobbyiscool]

Yeah there’s no doubt that a few in that footage weren’t genuine flippers.

Anything that went down the pitch “floating” certainly wasn’t, and there was a few of them in the footage.

Anything that nailed the Saffers generally was, that first 3 or 4 years of his career was when he REALLY bowled it , after that the shoulder was troubling him too much to bowl it effectively.

To watch them back to back is to feel genuinely sorry for Darryl Cullinan. Poor dude. He was a good batter. He was really good! And Warney just ruined the poor bastard.

 

[Lunchtime]

To watch them back to back is to feel genuinely sorry for Darryl Cullinan. Poor dude. He was a good batter. He was really good! And Warney just ruined the poor bastard.

Overall he (Cullinan) averaged 44.21 in Test cricket, yet I didn't realise how bad he was against Australia, he really did struggle:

Home vs Australia
Matches: 3
Innings: 6
Runs: 122
Average: 24.40
50s: 0
100s: 0
50+ Scores: 0
Highest Score: 47
Not Outs: 1
Ducks: 1

Away vs Australia
Matches: 4
Innings: 7
Runs: 31
Average: 4.42
50s: 0
100s: 0
50+ Scores: 0
Highest Score: 10
Not Outs: 0
Ducks: 2

Overall vs Australia
Matches: 7
Innings: 13
Runs: 153
Average: 12.75
50s: 0
100s: 0
50+ Scores: 0
Highest Score: 47
Not Outs: 1
Ducks: 3