5th Test Border Gavaskar Trophy January 3-7 1000hrs @ the SCG

[The hands of stone]

The Flipper is a very difficult ball to bowl. I was a wrist spinner and I couldn't bowl it consistently. It puts pressure on the fingers and shoulder and upon release it has to be squeezed out like a pip, like clicking your fingers.

But it's a very effective ball. Batters will go back to the ball but the ball skids through low thus creating opportunities for bowled or LBW.

Shane Warne used to bowl the Flipper well before he had shoulder surgery. He still used to bowl in occasions but not as much. He did though bowl a "slider"....a ball out of the front of the hand.

Brad Hogg also used to bowl thr traditional Flipper (like Warne) as well. In the 2003 World Cup he bowled Andy Flower with a great Flipper....great ball. He also bowled Surav Ganguly in a Test match too.

But yeah the Flipper is a difficult ball to bowl. Clarrie Grimmett has been credited with creating the Flipper. It took him several years to master it before he bowled it in games.

Clarrie Grimmett | Sport Australia Hall of Fame

Clarrie Grimmett remains one of the most remarkable men ever to play cricket for Australia as one of the great spin bowlers of the 1920s and 30s. He was born in Dunedin on the South Island of New Zealand, he practiced tirelessly at the Basin Reserve and first attracted attention at 15 when he took…

sahof.org.au

You need incredible strong fingers , wrists and shoulders to bowl it .
Then being able to control is another matter .

After Warnie did his shoulder he lost some of the power and range to consistently land it , so started going out the front of the hand more . Which was clever and skilful enough .

You do get the odd grade/premier leggie who bowls them they just dont have the consistentcy .
Flippers are pretty easy to pick if you know what to look for

 

[nobbyiscool]

You need incredible strong fingers , wrists and shoulders to bowl it .
Then being able to control is another matter .

That's the point I was trying to make last night. By 19, physically I could bowl a flipper. But it was absolute physical torture on my shoulder to do it, cos you're "dropping" it whenever you bowl a flipper... and like, I strongly suspect, at least 90% of 18-19yos who figure out how to physically do it, there's no benefit whatsoever to that physical torture cos you're only landing maybe 10% of them on a good day.

 

[Borisdog]

I’ve mentioned a few times that at this level the “faces have to fit” and in particular with this bloke he just didn’t on a number of levels.

The Australian Cricket Team is almost like a real life MAFS. You can identify plenty of players that “should have” made it but ultimately didn’t because of this.

Yes indeed.

The converse to this, both in sport AND a work environment, is never underestimate the damage 1 dickhead can do to a good team.

I am a very big subscriber to that.

 

[Lunchtime]

You need incredible strong fingers , wrists and shoulders to bowl it .
Then being able to control is another matter .

After Warnie did his shoulder he lost some of the power and range to consistently land it , so started going out the front of the hand more . Which was clever and skilful enough .

You do get the odd grade/premier leggie who bowls them they just dont have the consistentcy .
Flippers are pretty easy to pick if you know what to look for

You can spot it in the grip. Thats one element of watching for it.

 

[Richard Pryor]

Ashley Mallett averaged under 30 but had a SR of 75, not sure if that qualifies. Tim May was a good bowler but averaging 34 not sure if that qualifies as "genuinely good". Lyon has a shitload of wickets, I'm sure he does, not sure who else there is?

Think Hugh Trumble is our only offie to have a rep as a genuine match winner in his own right pre Lyon.

 

[sosos]

You want your spinner to be able to bowl you to victory in favourable conditions, which was a Lyon weakness early on, but in Australian tests there hasn't been favourable conditions for spinners in a test for years. They're your old ball change bowler as no spinner has ever been as dangerous as Boland Cummings and Hazlewood are in our current conditions. Lyon does it beautifully. Keeps it tight and chips wickets away at a steady rate. I agree with Zampa that we're going to continue to favour the control of finger spinners. It'll take another freak for a leggie to get the nod. Or a change in tactics. Bazball is probably wrist spinners best hope.

And the subcontinent pitches are result based around spin. You don't need to be a big turner of the ball. The accuracy of finger spinners is a bit like the accuracy of Boland on our seamers. The pitch does a heap of the work for you. Hit the spot and there's enough variation with some skidding and some gripping.

Selectors should go with Zampa then, because he's the one leg-spinner, with international experience who is proven completely capable of doing exactly what Lyon has done.

People don't realise the level this guy could reach playing to the same game plan as lyon now in test cricket, if we just gave him a go.

People point to his first class record like that's the bowler he is now. Those figures are solely because he plays so much limited over cricket. And he makes a bloody good coin from it, and why not? He never got a go at tests really.

If not him, I wish they would give Swepson a go. His BBL bowling is so impressive to this old leg-spinner, flight above the eyeline, and his slowness is the enticing icing.

 

[Topkent]

Selectors should go with Zampa then, because he's the one leg-spinner, with international experience who is proven completely capable of doing exactly what Lyon has done.

People don't realise the level this guy could reach playing to the same game plan as lyon now in test cricket, if we just gave him a go.

People point to his first class record like that's the bowler he is now. Those figures are solely because he plays so much limited over cricket. And he makes a bloody good coin from it, and why not? He never got a go at tests really.

If not him, I wish they would give Swepson a go. His BBL bowling is so impressive to this old leg-spinner, flight above the eyeline, and his slowness is the enticing icing.

What absolute nonsense. His own first class team doesn't pick him because he's a crap 4 day bowler. 3 games in 3 years at FC level

Imagine picking a test number 5 who's played 3 first class games in 3 years with a batting average of 26 because he's a decent T20 player.

 

[sabso]

What absolute nonsense. His own first class team doesn't pick him because he's a crap 4 day bowler. 3 games in 3 years at FC level

Imagine picking a test number 5 who's played 3 first class games in 3 years with a batting average of 26 because he's a decent T20 player.

Mods please hive this discussion off to a thread called “Adam Zampa is crap”

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

Just on the Flipper, it is worth remembering that Warne turned it into a lethal weapon by pitching it much fuller in the danger zone. Prior to that, leggies bowled flippers, but they were pitched shorter with the idea of getting the batsman to play a pull shot and keeping low. People used to talk about the flipper thinking Warne invented it. He didn't, he merely perfected it. I remember the first time I saw Warne bowl the flipper and thinking, "What the hell was that?". I think the batsman was thinking the same thing

 

[Lunchtime]

Mods please hive this discussion off to a thread called “Adam Zampa is crap”

The title of the thread should be:

"Adam Zampa bowls flat"

 

[Lunchtime]

Just on the Flipper, it is worth remembering that Warne turned it into a lethal weapon by pitching it much fuller in the danger zone. Prior to that, leggies bowled flippers, but they were pitched shorter with the idea of getting the batsman to play a pull shot and keeping low. People used to talk about the flipper thinking Warne invented it. He didn't, he merely perfected it. I remember the first time I saw Warne bowl the flipper and thinking, "What the hell was that?". I think the batsman was thinking the same thing

Clarrie Grimmett invented the Flipper and spent years in the nets perfecting it and practising it before he bowled it in games.

 

[Topkent]

Zampa has 115 first class wickets at 46

Simon Katich took 107 FC wickets at 35


Guess Simon Katich should have played in Sri Lanka as a frontline spinner, what a disgrace that cricket Australia didn't support him

 

[Pistol Night]

Just on the Flipper, it is worth remembering that Warne turned it into a lethal weapon by pitching it much fuller in the danger zone. Prior to that, leggies bowled flippers, but they were pitched shorter with the idea of getting the batsman to play a pull shot and keeping low. People used to talk about the flipper thinking Warne invented it. He didn't, he merely perfected it. I remember the first time I saw Warne bowl the flipper and thinking, "What the hell was that?". I think the batsman was thinking the same thing

I used to love listening to Richie commentating while Warney was on. A bloke that knew the craft inside out also and got more excited about Warney than anyone else from memory

 

[western royboy]

Selectors should go with Zampa then, because he's the one leg-spinner, with international experience who is proven completely capable of doing exactly what Lyon has done.

People don't realise the level this guy could reach playing to the same game plan as lyon now in test cricket, if we just gave him a go.

People point to his first class record like that's the bowler he is now. Those figures are solely because he plays so much limited over cricket. And he makes a bloody good coin from it, and why not? He never got a go at tests really.

If not him, I wish they would give Swepson a go. His BBL bowling is so impressive to this old leg-spinner, flight above the eyeline, and his slowness is the enticing icing.

He doesn’t turn the ball…if he was gonna make it…he would have made it by now

 

[sosos]

What absolute nonsense. His own first class team doesn't pick him because he's a crap 4 day bowler. 3 games in 3 years at FC level

Imagine picking a test number 5 who's played 3 first class games in 3 years with a batting average of 26 because he's a decent T20 player.

They probably don't pick him because he's away, making too much money playing short form. Obviously his choice, and obviously has a deleterious effect on any chance he's selected for tests. I'm just saying I believe he could do the same job Lyon currently does for the team.

I said his record reflects this imbalance, almost to the point where you'd ignore it, and look at his ODI record as an indicator of what he could do in the test team.

In ODIs, he has 180 wickets at 28.28. And Lyon has 539 at 30.39 in tests.

And I don't know if you've noticed, but test cricket has changed massively with the shorter forms influencing the style of play. I think you're failing to look outside the box, and think a bit creatively.

Zampa has 115 first class wickets at 46

Simon Katich took 107 FC wickets at 35


Guess Simon Katich should have played in Sri Lanka as a frontline spinner, what a disgrace that cricket Australia didn't support him

Absolute nonsense analogy. Not even vaguely humorous, poignant or even relevant to my post.

He doesn’t turn the ball…if he was gonna make it…he would have made it by now

Not as much as most leggies, but his style has been very effective in ODIs. I see no real reason it couldn't translate to tests.

 

[Topkent]

They probably don't pick him because he's away, making too much money playing short form. Obviously his choice, and obviously has a deleterious effect on any chance he's selected for tests. I'm just saying I believe he could do the same job Lyon currently does for the team.

I said his record reflects this imbalance, almost to the point where you'd ignore it, and look at his ODI record as an indicator of what he could do in the test team.

In ODIs, he has 180 wickets at 28.28. And Lyon has 539 at 30.39 in tests.

And I don't know if you've noticed, but test cricket has changed massively with the shorter forms influencing the style of play. I think you're failing to look outside the box, and think a bit creatively.



Absolute nonsense analogy. Not even vaguely humorous, poignant or even relevant to my post.



Not as much as most leggies, but his style has been very effective in ODIs. I see no real reason it couldn't translate to tests.

Your point is absolute garbage. There's zero fact or sense in it, just ' be creative' an anyone could be an amazing test spinner while completely ignoring that Zampa isn't even good enough to play first class cricket.


Good on him for making tonnes of money playing short form, just don't cry when that's the player you become. If he was serious about playing in tests he'd make the effort, or he could continue to put in none and be 'creative'

 

[sosos]

Your point is absolute garbage. There's zero fact or sense in it, just ' be creative' an anyone could be an amazing test spinner while completely ignoring that Zampa isn't even good enough to play first class cricket.


Good on him for making tonnes of money playing short form, just don't cry when that's the player you become. If he was serious about playing in tests he'd make the effort, or he could continue to put in none and be 'creative'

Someone's seems to be on the angry pills this morning. I'll ask Gough to moderate the tone of your replies to me.
You don't agree, and that's fine. But: "Absolute garbage" and "zero fact or sense" seems unnecessarily aggressive in my opinion.

More importantly, you haven't even addressed the core point, which it seems I have to make again.

You just keep pointing at his FC record, and talk about him not being good enough to play first class cricket, which I'd already acknowledged and dealt with.

I was considering not making the point again, but I'll have to repeat it as you are not seeming to comprehend the argument I'm making.

If you'd looked, you'd see his last FC match in December 2024, he took 3/96 off 27 overs, then 1/44 off 13 overs. Not world beating, but looks like the same kind of job Nathan Lyon has done for Australia for years. And although that is a very small body of FC evidence, we've all watched him do the same thing, really well in the ODI format for years. I believe he would adapt to tests, keep it real tight and chip in with wickets, just like Lyon does.

 

[sr36]

Selectors should go with Zampa then, because he's the one leg-spinner, with international experience who is proven completely capable of doing exactly what Lyon has done.

People don't realise the level this g

They probably don't pick him because he's away, making too much money playing short form. Obviously his choice, and obviously has a deleterious effect on any chance he's selected for tests. I'm just saying I believe he could do the same job Lyon currently does for the team.

They don't pick him because he hasn't shown he can get close to being as successful as Lyon in longer form cricket. In Australian conditions, no spinner in the world has shown they can get close to doing what Lyon does in long form cricket in Australia - he's ridiculously underrated.

Arguing that Zampa would do just as good a job based on one day average is akin to arguing that Lyon would do just as good a job in short form as Zampa based on first class average. He wouldn't.

 

[Topkent]

Someone's seems to be on the angry pills this morning. I'll ask Gough to moderate the tone of your replies to me.
You don't agree, and that's fine. But: "Absolute garbage" and "zero fact or sense" seems unnecessarily aggressive in my opinion.

More importantly, you haven't even addressed the core point, which it seems I have to make again.

You just keep pointing at his FC record, and talk about him not being good enough to play first class cricket, which I'd already acknowledged and dealt with.

I was considering not making the point again, but I'll have to repeat it as you are not seeming to comprehend the argument I'm making.

If you'd looked, you'd see his last FC match in December 2024, he took 3/96 off 27 overs, then 1/44 off 13 overs. Not world beating, but looks like the same kind of job Nathan Lyon has done for Australia for years. And although that is a very small body of FC evidence, we've all watched him do the same thing, really well in the ODI format for years. I believe he would adapt to tests, keep it real tight and chip in with wickets, just like Lyon does.

Could you be any softer? Neither of those are aggressive. Your passive aggressive replies of ' you're seemingly not comprehending my point' is the same thing. So maybe report yourself to champ.


Wow! One FC match, I'm so sorry mate I didn't realise he was the next Shane Warne because he got good figures in one single FC game


Factually he has a horrible FC record. In your fantasy he can do what Lyon has. Again by that same logic Simon Katich could have done even better considering his FC average was 10 runs better with about the same amount of wickets. Imagine how shit he would have made Lyon look!

 

[sosos]

They don't pick him because he hasn't shown he can get close to being as successful as Lyon in longer form cricket. In Australian conditions, no spinner in the world has shown they can get close to doing what Lyon does in long form cricket in Australia - he's ridiculously underrated.

Arguing that Zampa would do just as good a job based on one day average is akin to arguing that Lyon would do just as good a job in short form as Zampa based on first class average. He wouldn't.

Plenty of good ODI form is rewarded with Test Cricket.

Could you be any softer? Neither of those are aggressive. Your passive aggressive replies of ' you're seemingly not comprehending my point' is the same thing. So maybe report yourself to champ.


Wow! One FC match, I'm so sorry mate I didn't realise he was the next Shane Warne because he got good figures in one single FC game


Factually he has a horrible FC record. In your fantasy he can do what Lyon has. Again by that same logic Simon Katich could have done even better considering his FC average was 10 runs better with about the same amount of wickets. Imagine how shit he would have made Lyon look!

Now I'm soft? Your heading for my ignore list. And now I'm passive.aggressive because I pointed out you didn't understand or address my original point?

Then another irrelevant analogy. I see your pattern.

Then again, you miss the point that I don't think his FC class record is an accurate reflection of what he could do in tests, but his ODI record is actually a better pointer to what we might see. I only pointed out his last FC class match to highlight the extra overs he would have to handle.

 

[Topkent]

Plenty of good ODI form is rewarded with Test Cricket.



Now I'm soft? Your heading for my ignore list. And now I'm passive.aggressive because I pointed out you didn't understand or address my original point?

Then another irrelevant analogy. I see your pattern.

Then again, you miss the point that I don't think his FC class record is an accurate reflection of what he could do in tests, but his ODI record is actually a better pointer to what we might see. I only pointed out his last FC class match to highlight the extra overs he would have to handle.

That's very aggressive of you, I'm gonna need you to calm down first before we can talk anymore.

 

[sosos]

That's very aggressive of you, I'm gonna need you to calm down first before we can talk anymore.

Childish.

 

[Topkent]

Childish.

Ooh resorting to insults, that's very mean of you. Please help me mods

 

[sr36]

Plenty of good ODI form is rewarded with Test Cricket.

This is pretty straight forward. Zampa is hard to smash, but he hasn't shown that he's even remotely hard to defend. Meanwhile, Lyon often gets blokes out playing defensive strokes, but he's easier to smack. It's like Boland versus a one day bowler who excels at taking the pace off the ball.

 

[Gough]

Leave it please guys.