5th Test Border Gavaskar Trophy January 3-7 1000hrs @ the SCG

[Lunchtime]

Was he the one that could get the ball to turn the other way whilst still bowling with an off spinning action?

Yep thats him. He was the first to bowl the doosra.

 

[Lunchtime]

This could be true, Warne was probably the only spinner ever who was able to intimidate people with mind games like he was a fast bowler, the way he'd stand at the top of his mark and move the field around and stare he could build an atmosphere and a pressure that was box office for a stock standard leggie.

MacGill didn't have that, but could have done what Lyons done? Yeah I reckon.

I reckon MacGill could of achieved what Lyon has achieved wicket wise. It's just that MacGill was a world class leg spin bowler but in front of him (Warne) was a freak leg spin bowler.

 

[Lunchtime]

Jason Krejza was the best of the rest. I will die on this hill.

Flight was good, could turn it and extract bounce. They were frightened after his second test and reverted to the safer Hauritz option.

Jason really used to give the ball a rip.

 

[PhatBoy]

Lyon is really underrated. There's never been a harder time to be a spinner in Aust. Tests don't go 5 days. Sydney is no longer a spinner's paradise. Pink ball has turned Adelaide into a seamers pitch. This is from a couple of years ago, but I don't think it's changed much since.

Nathan Lyon compared to other spinners in the Aust test matches he's played. Warnes average was 27 vs 41 from other spinners.

Player	Balls	Runs	Wkts	Ave	Econ	SR	5w	10w
Nathan Lyon	13665	6707	204	32.87	2.94	66.9	8	2
Others	18703	11321	183	61.86	3.63	102.2	2	0
Total	32368	18028	387	46.58

It’s a double edged sword though.

1. Generally bowlers of any persuasion will know their conditions and bowl them better than others so most of the spinners he’s competing against - Ashwin has bowled quite a bit here in that time, Maharaj a bit, Jadeja, they’re probably the main ones - they’re not going to be as equipped to bowl here regardless of how un helpful the conditions are. Lyon is a GOOD bowler, an excellent bowler. He knows how to use whatever IS on offer be it bounce or breeze or whatever, or any spin that he might be able to get.

2. No one in their right mind can ignore how helpful it has to have been to bowl behind 3 guys who so regularly have the opposition 4/100. It is so infrequent that Lyon comes on to bowl with the pressure on HIM in Australia. That is a huge thing to have in your favour just as it is for the other guys who get to bowl in their conditions overseas.

 

[sr36]

It’s a double edged sword though.

1. Generally bowlers of any persuasion will know their conditions and bowl them better than others so most of the spinners he’s competing against - Ashwin has bowled quite a bit here in that time, Maharaj a bit, Jadeja, they’re probably the main ones - they’re not going to be as equipped to bowl here regardless of how un helpful the conditions are. Lyon is a GOOD bowler, an excellent bowler. He knows how to use whatever IS on offer be it bounce or breeze or whatever, or any spin that he might be able to get.

2. No one in their right mind can ignore how helpful it has to have been to bowl behind 3 guys who so regularly have the opposition 4/100. It is so infrequent that Lyon comes on to bowl with the pressure on HIM in Australia. That is a huge thing to have in your favour just as it is for the other guys who get to bowl in their conditions overseas.

No doubt. You see it with Lyon in Asia too. It's taken him a lot of tours to become a good spinner in Asian conditions.

But how much more effective Lyon has been in Aussie conditions compared to all other spinners has been remarkable. Ave of 31 vs 61 for other spinners. Warnes was 27 vs 41.

Post Lyon, it'll be hard to find a specialist spinner who justifies a game on spicy drop in pitches that don't break up - even on the very rare occasions the games get to day 5.

I'd love us to find a big turning leggie strike bowler with heaps of variations, or an offie who can keep it as tight as Lyon and chip out wickets as regularly as he does, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Lyon is unobtrusive but remarkable.

 

[sr36]

Jason Krejza was the best of the rest. I will die on this hill.

Flight was good, could turn it and extract bounce. They were frightened after his second test and reverted to the safer Hauritz option.

He was an offie who bowled like the stereotypical leggie. Gave it a massive rip and thus bowled some peaches, but dragged down a boundary ball every over. Couldn't keep it tight. Thus couldn't do the job we want from a spinner.

 

[PhatBoy]

Jason Krejza was the best of the rest. I will die on this hill.

Flight was good, could turn it and extract bounce. They were frightened after his second test and reverted to the safer Hauritz option.

He had a first class strike rate of 79.

For relativity’ sake, Dan Cullen’s was 81.

Kiwi Mark Craig, one of the worst bowlers I’ve seen to get more than a couple of test matches, was 75.

In that one test where Krejza got his 8-200 odd he DID throw it up and give it a rip but if he was doing that throughout his 50-odd shield games it wasn’t working real well from a strike rate perspective even for a spinner

 

[DaRick]

I think Zampas point is that MacGill couldn't have done what Lyon does and vice versa.

Both greats of their craft with the standard strengths and weaknesses of their craft. MacGill turned it a mile and bowled a heap of deadly balls. He was a real strike bowler who could rip through a team. But he did throw down some rubbish in amongst the deadly balls. He wasn't your man to lock up an end and build up the pressure in the attritional style that the Aussies currently favour. I think we'd choose Lyon over him as he suits our game plan more.

Warney transcends because he was a strike bowler who could also lock up an end. The best of both worlds.

As I've said before, I prefer MacGill against batting lineups that can't play spin (ENG 98/99) or against incompetent batting lineups in general (BAN 2003/04), because they won't pick his wrong'un or negotiate his turn very well.

Against batting lineups that can play spin, I prefer Lyon, because he's quicker through the air and gets more bounce with his overspin, so it's more difficult to get down the wicket to him or cut him - Alastair Cook, who was otherwise a very good player of spin, had notable difficulty with Lyon's extra bounce. Plus he coughs up fewer four balls.

He had a first class strike rate of 79.

For relativity’ sake, Dan Cullen’s was 81.

Kiwi Mark Craig, one of the worst bowlers I’ve seen to get more than a couple of test matches, was 75.

In that one test where Krejza got his 8-200 odd he DID throw it up and give it a rip but if he was doing that throughout his 50-odd shield games it wasn’t working real well from a strike rate perspective even for a spinner

Mark Craig (and Dom Bess for that matter) are actually good analogues for Krejza.

Plenty of turn but zero control or variation - which made them easy targets when the ball wasn't turning.

Assuming that big turn generally makes a spinner threatening is a mistake, but a common one - I know, because I've made it.

 

[big_e]

MacGill averaged 22.1 when Warne was in the side and 33.5 when he wasn't. Very, very important context when talking about his record.

 

[western royboy]

This could be true, Warne was probably the only spinner ever who was able to intimidate people with mind games like he was a fast bowler, the way he'd stand at the top of his mark and move the field around and stare he could build an atmosphere and a pressure that was box office for a stock standard leggie.

MacGill didn't have that, but could have done what Lyons done? Yeah I reckon.

Warne stands alone as a bowler on any level. Macgill as good as he was, is limited by what type of surfaces he was effective on because he was a completely different bowler to Warne.


Using the same logic, Lyon is streets ahead of any other offie that we’ve ever had

 

[Topkent]

MacGill averaged 22.1 when Warne was in the side and 33.5 when he wasn't. Very, very important context when talking about his record.

Who cares about that context? Warne averaged 29 in those same games.

That 33 includes his two series after Warne retired where he was absolutely shocking and should never have been picked. If you ignore those his average is 30 without Warne.

30 is a very good average for a leggie.
22 is a world class average and better than any spinner ever who's bowled any amount. Hardly a stick to beat him with

 

[Black Diamond]

He was an offie who bowled like the stereotypical leggie. Gave it a massive rip and thus bowled some peaches, but dragged down a boundary ball every over. Couldn't keep it tight. Thus couldn't do the job we want from a spinner.

I just thought with him we should have been more patient. I don't agree with defaulting to spinners to play a containment role.

 

[DaRick]

I just thought with him we should have been more patient. I don't agree with defaulting to spinners to play a containment role.

IMO he would have been another Mark Craig if we tried that.

Sometimes you just have to pick what's there. And given McGain's dismal performance when tried, the most suitable bowler during the 2008-11 period was Hauritz/O'Keefe.

 

[Lunchtime]

MacGill averaged 22.1 when Warne was in the side and 33.5 when he wasn't. Very, very important context when talking about his record.

I still think MacGill was better than Lyon.

 

[Topkent]

You got me thinking so i thought id reminisce. Beautifully deadly

That's gotta be the deadliest delivery in test cricket pre shoulder injury. To go from a loopy ripping leg spinner to a ball that was shot out of a cannon. Good luck.

 

[Topkent]

 

[Pistol Night]

That's gotta be the deadliest delivery in test cricket pre shoulder injury. To go from a loopy ripping leg spinner to a ball that was shot out of a cannon. Good luck.

Yeah while you’re waiting for that crazy drift to leg side and a ripping leg break a fizzer at 100km/h is through the gate

 

[western royboy]

I just thought with him we should have been more patient. I don't agree with defaulting to spinners to play a containment role.

I’ve mentioned a few times that at this level the “faces have to fit” and in particular with this bloke he just didn’t on a number of levels.

The Australian Cricket Team is almost like a real life MAFS. You can identify plenty of players that “should have” made it but ultimately didn’t because of this.

 

[western royboy]

That's gotta be the deadliest delivery in test cricket pre shoulder injury. To go from a loopy ripping leg spinner to a ball that was shot out of a cannon. Good luck.

Anthony Stuart was playing at Randwick when I was floating around there and he got knocked over by Shahid Afridi in a ODI at Hobart. Unbelievably quick leg spinner

 

[Pistol Night]

Anthony Stuart was playing at Randwick when I was floating around there and he got knocked over by Shahid Afridi in a ODI at Hobart. Unbelievably quick leg spinner

Crazy coincidence to this conversation. Warney and Anthony Stuart are the only 2 hatricks I've seen live

 

[Gough]

Crazy coincidence to this conversation. Warney and Anthony Stuart are the only 2 hatricks I've seen live

After seeing Warner's 300 and India getting bowled out for three fifths of f***all a hat trick and a Test tie live are about all I have left on my bucket list.

 

[sr36]

I just thought with him we should have been more patient. I don't agree with defaulting to spinners to play a containment role.

You want your spinner to be able to bowl you to victory in favourable conditions, which was a Lyon weakness early on, but in Australian tests there hasn't been favourable conditions for spinners in a test for years. They're your old ball change bowler as no spinner has ever been as dangerous as Boland Cummings and Hazlewood are in our current conditions. Lyon does it beautifully. Keeps it tight and chips wickets away at a steady rate. I agree with Zampa that we're going to continue to favour the control of finger spinners. It'll take another freak for a leggie to get the nod. Or a change in tactics. Bazball is probably wrist spinners best hope.

And the subcontinent pitches are result based around spin. You don't need to be a big turner of the ball. The accuracy of finger spinners is a bit like the accuracy of Boland on our seamers. The pitch does a heap of the work for you. Hit the spot and there's enough variation with some skidding and some gripping.

 

[western royboy]

Anthony Stuart was playing at Randwick when I was floating around there and he got knocked over by Shahid Afridi in a ODI at Hobart. Unbelievably quick leg spinner

And about 10 days after he got said hat trick he was bowling to me in the nets at Snape Park and I thought to myself “how good is this”

 

[RookiePick]

Saqlain Mushtaq averaged 34.14 in Australia.

One of the all time great off-spinners.

No one had a clue about his doosra and they genuinely went the other way.

 

[Lunchtime]

No one had a clue about his doosra and they genuinely went the other way.