5th Test Border Gavaskar Trophy January 3-7 1000hrs @ the SCG

[Gough]

Leave it please guys.

 

[Pistol Night]

Gee it looks like we need some Virat floggishness in here to restore harmony

 

[sosos]

This is pretty straight forward. Zampa is hard to smash, but he hasn't shown that he's even remotely hard to defend. Meanwhile, Lyon often gets blokes out playing defensive strokes, but he's easier to smack. It's like Boland versus a one day bowler who excels at taking the pace off the ball.

Fair points, but I disagree he's easy to defend against. 42 out of 180 of his wickets are LBW which point to a mis-played defensive stroke.

The discussion is probably moot as I know he won't get picked. I'm just saying if he was, he could be expected to do a decent job, similar to the one Lyon performs, probably not to the same level, because Lyon has proven he can do it again and again, over a long period of time, and we simply don't have enough FC evidence to expect he'll get picked.

But if I was a selector, I would have been very tempted to give him a chance in the Sri Lanka series, and have been reasonably confident he could perform well in the same role.

 

[Topkent]

Fair points, but I disagree he's easy to defend against. 42 out of 180 of his wickets are LBW which point to a mis-played defensive stroke.

That's just not true. That doesn't account for the amount of slogs and sweeps that are just straight up missed especially in the later overs.

 

[sosos]

That's just not true. That doesn't account for the amount of slogs and sweeps that are just straight up missed especially in the later overs.

Fair point.

 

[sr36]

Fair points, but I disagree he's easy to defend against. 42 out of 180 of his wickets are LBW which point to a mis-played defensive stroke.

The discussion is probably moot as I know he won't get picked. I'm just saying if he was, he could be expected to do a decent job, similar to the one Lyon performs, probably not to the same level, because Lyon has proven he can do it again and again, over a long period of time, and we simply don't have enough FC evidence to expect he'll get picked.

But if I was a selector, I would have been very tempted to give him a chance in the Sri Lanka series, and have been reasonably confident he could perform well in the same role.

Not in short form it doesn't. Just as likely to be from a slog or reverse sweep.

If they were going to give it a go it was last tour of India, but they chose to give Kuhneman a go instead - for pretty obvious reasons as he bowls the style that has been extremely successful on Asian pitches over the last decade. Kuhneman did well in India so they've stuck with him.

 

[sosos]

Not in short form it doesn't. Just as likely to be from a slog or reverse sweep.

If they were going to give it a go it was last tour of India, but they chose to give Kuhneman a go instead - for pretty obvious reasons as he bowls the style that has been extremely successful on Asian pitches over the last decade. Kuhneman did well in India so they've stuck with him.

A leggy is a more attacking option in my opinion. Zampa has such good accuracy and control, so he's more in the Warne mould than MacGill. (before anyone jumps on me, I'm certainly not comparing quality there....)

It's great they are taking the chance to blood some young spinners, I just find it deplorable the lack of leg spinners in the squad. Leg spin is a wild card in a captain's arsenal, but so many don't have the full control. But I really think Zampa does.

Any thoughts on Swepson?

 

[nobbyiscool]

People are getting personal with each other over Adam Zampa?

WTF?!

 

[Around the Wicket]

Zampa saying your buckleys chance of a long Test cricket career as a leg spinner is incorrect, if a exceptional one come along they'd get selected in a heart beat.. only issue is there hasn't been a exceptional one since Warne/MacGill.

 

[PhatBoy]

Fair point.

Also gets a lot of blokes playing back to those fairly short top spinners trying to whip them through the leg side and getting bowled or hit on the pads as well.

He bowls a lot like Samuel Badree used to for the West Indies

 

[sr36]

A leggy is a more attacking option in my opinion. Zampa has such good accuracy and control, so he's more in the Warne mould than MacGill. (before anyone jumps on me, I'm certainly not comparing quality there....)

It's great they are taking the chance to blood some young spinners, I just find it deplorable the lack of leg spinners in the squad. Leg spin is a wild card in a captain's arsenal, but so many don't have the full control. But I really think Zampa does.

Any thoughts on Swepson?

Swepson is a good bowler - the best long form leggie in the country. But in terms of leggies automatically being more attacking - his strike rate is no better than Murphy or Lyon - the other relevant leggies - Pope, Sangha and Zampa - have far worse strike rates than Murphy and Lyon.

 

[cats_09]

Fallout from the tour:



Also included,

Other guidelines, according to India Today, include players — not the BCCI — now having to cover charges if their luggage exceeds 150kg, while all players must also travel together on the team bus.

Report: BCCI set to impose tour restrictions for India team, including limit on time spent with partners and family

‘Put their foot down’: BCCI’s ruthless family move as fallout to Aussie mess deepens

www.foxsports.com.au

 

[PhatBoy]

Yeah it was their family that caused their bowlers to bowl well but a metre or so too short in Adelaide, their top 6 to have an uncontrollable urge to fish outside off-stump and to drop catches at crucial times particularly in the fourth test.

f**k me drunk.

This is Pakistan level ineptitude in terms of post mortem

 

[cats_09]

The commitment of senior Indian players is also being questioned, especially around the lack of first class matches for some, and that players have to decide if they're fully committed or not

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Can't speak for others but does anyone else feel that once the Tests are over cricket season loses interest?
in the 80's and 90's we had the triangular series after the tests which kept the visiting teams here and the rivalry flowing into ODI cricket. And of course that triangular series had a cup attached to it. so they were not meaningless games.

With 20/20 cricket being the flavour of the times maybe a 3 way triangular series of 20/20 could work?

Just for me it seems cricket season ended when the tests finished. I watch the BBL but that has always been just a novalty/entertainment thing.

What are others thoughts? Should international cricket last much longer in our summer as it once did?

 

[PhatBoy]

The commitment of senior Indian players is also being questioned, especially around the lack of first class matches for some, and that players have to decide if they're fully committed or not

I never ever thought I would say this but just following on from my previous post about the post-mortem and its Pakistan like reaction:

my team has lurched from one disaster to the next over the last 20 years and some of it has been its own making, some of it has been the sort of thing you just can’t help - money is a powerful thing - and some of it is just down to being a small fish in a big pond and the knowledge that there are always going to be times when you will lose to powerful nations and teams.

We’ve had some horrible leaders and administrators.

But in the last 12-18 months we’ve had some moments where those running the game saw some bad outcomes and thought ‘you know what? We will add two extra teams to our domestic competition, giving us two extra games and we will try and schedule it to make sure that every single player that can POSSIBLY factor into our Test calculations who wants to be there, can play, and we will do everything in our power to make them and encourage them to play.’
‘Then we will rearrange our test schedule a little bit so that those players are going to be better able to be around and still make some money doing what they do elsewhere if they can.’
‘We will have a mandate on changing the pitches a bit.’
‘We will re-introduce an academy team to our competition.’
‘We will promote under 19s players into our international program.’
‘We will appoint the one successful leader we have had from the last 15 years who led us to two World Cup wins to be our coach.’

I never thought I would see the day that the Windies would react to failure better than India

 

[big_e]

Fair points, but I disagree he's easy to defend against. 42 out of 180 of his wickets are LBW which point to a mis-played defensive stroke.

I don't have a dog in this fight, I present the info for informational purposes only.

Here are Adam Zampa's ODI LBWs since the start of 2023, commentary per Cricinfo:

Motie (WI), Feb 2024: Missed a slog sweep
Thomas (WI), Feb 2024: Missed a slog sweep
Bumrah (IND), CWC23 Final: “slides on as Bumrah props forward”
Dutt (NED), CWC23: Attempting a back foot defense
van der Merwe (NED), CWC23: Forward defence, googly, missed the inside edge
Rizwan (PAK), CWC23: sweeping, played over it
Iftikhar Ahmed (PAK), CWC23: Doesn’t say, other than “went with the arm”
Samarawickrama (SL), CWC23: “legbreak that doesn’t turn”, beats the inside edge
C Karunaratne (SL), CWC23: didn’t read the googly, playing forward defence
Theekshana (SL), CWC23: wrong’un, didn’t pick it
Gaikwad (IND), Sept 2023: sweeping
Coetzee (SAF),Sept 2023: skids through, beats him for pace
Jansen (SAF), Sept 2023: reverse sweeping
Bavuma (SAF), Sept 2023: Googly, missed a lap
Gill (IND), March 2023: “got his pad in the way of a drifting half-volley”

If anyone wants to go further back, knock yourselves out: https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...late=results;type=bowling;view=dismissal_list

 

[sr36]

The commitment of senior Indian players is also being questioned, especially around the lack of first class matches for some, and that players have to decide if they're fully committed or not

There's a fair bit in that, but I'm also not sure how much Ranji Trophy would have helped them to handle Boland on a bouncy seaming pitch.

Ideally we'd get back to teams playing a fair few first class games whilst on tour, but not going to happen unfortunately.

Plus their lack of bowling depth was the real difference between the teams.

 

[western royboy]

I used to love listening to Richie commentating while Warney was on. A bloke that knew the craft inside out also and got more excited about Warney than anyone else from memory

Occasionally when watching Jason Richardson or Mark Howard overhype a situation, my mind drifts off to Richie and the brevity of his words and the knowledge and passion that he delivered them with. I can pull about ten featuring Warne instantly without any effort

 

[sr36]

Can't speak for others but does anyone else feel that once the Tests are over cricket season loses interest?
in the 80's and 90's we had the triangular series after the tests which kept the visiting teams here and the rivalry flowing into ODI cricket. And of course that triangular series had a cup attached to it. so they were not meaningless games.

With 20/20 cricket being the flavour of the times maybe a 3 way triangular series of 20/20 could work?

Just for me it seems cricket season ended when the tests finished. I watch the BBL but that has always been just a novalty/entertainment thing.

What are others thoughts? Should international cricket last much longer in our summer as it once did?

Interest wanes after tests for me too, but I'm more looking forward to us heading to Sri Lanka for a couple more tests in very different conditions than I would be with a triangular T20 series in Aust.

I like short form cricket, but its just background watching for me - whilst doing something else. It doesn't grip like a test does.

 

[Rabish Binney]

I never ever thought I would say this but just following on from my previous post about the post-mortem and its Pakistan like reaction:

my team has lurched from one disaster to the next over the last 20 years and some of it has been its own making, some of it has been the sort of thing you just can’t help - money is a powerful thing - and some of it is just down to being a small fish in a big pond and the knowledge that there are always going to be times when you will lose to powerful nations and teams.

We’ve had some horrible leaders and administrators.

But in the last 12-18 months we’ve had some moments where those running the game saw some bad outcomes and thought ‘you know what? We will add two extra teams to our domestic competition, giving us two extra games and we will try and schedule it to make sure that every single player that can POSSIBLY factor into our Test calculations who wants to be there, can play, and we will do everything in our power to make them and encourage them to play.’
‘Then we will rearrange our test schedule a little bit so that those players are going to be better able to be around and still make some money doing what they do elsewhere if they can.’
‘We will have a mandate on changing the pitches a bit.’
‘We will re-introduce an academy team to our competition.’
‘We will promote under 19s players into our international program.’
‘We will appoint the one successful leader we have had from the last 15 years who led us to two World Cup wins to be our coach.’

I never thought I would see the day that the Windies would react to failure better than India

What's the domestic red ball comp standard like these days there Phat?

I know you don't have a crystal ball but if the WI Board of Control are finally getting their act together, how many years before it bears fruit (from a test cricket perspective)?

Footnote: Imagine seeing Barbados vs Antigua (or for that matter, Trinidad and Tobago vs Jamaica) 40 years ago when all the Windies test players were available for the domestic comp.

 

[Rabish Binney]

There's a fair bit in that, but I'm also not sure how much Ranji Trophy would have helped them to handle Boland on a bouncy seaming pitch.

Ideally we'd get back to teams playing a fair few first class games whilst on tour, but not going to happen unfortunately.

Plus their lack of bowling depth was the real difference between the teams.

Did I hear correctly that the Ranji Trophy has 40 teams in it?

 

[sr36]

Did I hear correctly that the Ranji Trophy has 40 teams in it?

They have a minor relegation system - really should move to 4 divisions.

 

[PhatBoy]

What's the domestic red ball comp standard like these days there Phat?

I know you don't have a crystal ball but if the WI Board of Control are finally getting their act together, how many years before it bears fruit (from a test cricket perspective)?

Footnote: Imagine seeing Barbados vs Antigua (or for that matter, Trinidad and Tobago vs Jamaica) 40 years ago when all the Windies test players were available for the domestic comp.

It’s better.

It’s not about to rival Ranji Trophy or Shield or anything but the most notable improvement already has been the amount of hundreds.

27 centuries last season. Yes there were more games but there was only 14 hundreds the season before. 13 extra centuries - so far that increase has been roughly in line with the amount of extra games.

But the year before last, only 8 players managed 300+ from their 5 games, and of those 8, only 4 averaged over 40.

Last season 10 guys got over 400, and 9 of them averaged over 40.

Two more just outside the top 10 averaged over 40 as well.

Perhaps best of all, out of that group only Brathwaite and Jason Mohammad would be considered too old to improve. There were a few like Sunil Ambris that were over 30 but nothing extreme.

The downside of all of this is that spin is still dominating to a colossal degree with the wicket taking. Almost all the top 10 wicket takers are spinners and they’re nothing special. Jeremiah Louis was the leading quick (Mikyle’s brother) who has a good record but the rest are just mediocre.

It wouldn’t be so bad except none of this exposure to spin has led our batsmen to being any better at playing spin at international level.


Overall:

I don’t see any of our batsmen having any worse technique against pace or the moving ball or swing than any other side. That might sound stupid after some of our performances in Australia or England in recent years but I believe it is our mental approach that holds us back. Our inability to leave the ball for long periods and be disciplined. Louis, Hodge, Greaves, Holder if he gets back in, all these guys are technically quite sound. Many of the other guys domestically that I’ve watched are too (I can’t say I sit up all night an watch hour after hour of live games, I tend to just watch highlights of the guys when they get runs etc). On the flip side we also play with a little bit of fear at times when other sides tend to seize the moment. Athanaze has both the technique and the flair if he can balance both, to be a key guy.

Jewel Andrew needs to be whacked in there as soon as physically possible. His underage numbers are insane. He’s only 17 and he’s already doing some damage at domestic level. Nothing head turning yet but for his age, it definitely is.

I would like to see one of our spinners jump out from the pack: Motie has real potential to be a good one but is just a tier or two below the better ones. He could maybe reach Santner level and his batting is very handy.

Our bowling stocks are good.

Discipline, and learning to play spin.

Those two things will determine how well we fair over the next 5 years IMO.

It’s a start, though.