Anthony Albanese - How long? -2-

[Gralin]

The whole vote for us and we'll do this after the election when you're in power and could do it now is just such a cancer

Yeah if you're in opposition sure

but why can't Labor do it now?

Oh that's right because then they couldn't use it as an election carrot, they'd rather people stay in debt to get them elected than fix stuff and see if people vote for them for that

heaven forbid we get actual change instead of the promise of change later

 

[Gralin]

welcome to nothing else happening between now and the election so we'll have had a full term of **** all from the party that promised almost nothing before the election and still under delivered

 

[nut]

I like the idea of free child care for working Australian families but how do we stop the child care centre owners from continuing their price hikes and massive profits.

On SM-A136B using BigFooty.com mobile app

They shouldn’t be private … they should be government owned

 

[nut]

welcome to nothing else happening between now and the election so we'll have had a full term of **** all from the party that promised almost nothing before the election and still under delivered

They’ve had the threat of “anything they do will increase inflation”.. etc… they’ve done as much as they could in the circumstance.

They smashed down inflation whilst getting the budget back to surplus and keeping unemployment relatively low… pensions up … wages up…

 

[peetoo]

They’ve had the threat of “anything they do will increase inflation”.. etc… they’ve done as much as they could in the circumstance.

They smashed down inflation whilst getting the budget back to surplus and keeping unemployment relatively low… pensions up … wages up…

But otherwise done nothing… I suppose the religious discrimination thiss was important

Sarcasm

 

[Gralin]

They’ve had the threat of “anything they do will increase inflation”.. etc… they’ve done as much as they could in the circumstance.

They smashed down inflation whilst getting the budget back to surplus and keeping unemployment relatively low… pensions up … wages up…

they got the budget into surplus by leaving people behind

cost of living going up and welfare payments left below the poverty line

homelessness increasing

healthcare getting worse

yay budget surplus much wow

they sat on their hands for 2 years and now they're saying we'll do stuff after the election, promise

effectively an entire term where living conditions got materially worse for the majority of people so they could have a budget surplus

 

[FlowersByIrene]

HECS debt was never meant to be something that takes many years or a lifetime to pay off. The clue is in the name - higher education contribution scheme. Meanwhile, every taxpayer indirectly contributes towards property investors' nest eggs with negative gearing and CGT discounts.

It's tinkering at the edges, bit it goes some way to addressing the way in which HECS has blown out from a contribution to a millstone around the necks of people who don't have the virtual guarantee of 'a good job' after uni like previous generations. Getting a trade is a much better deal for the individual than getting a degree these days.

It doesn't take a lifetime to pay off... I paid mine off this year after 8 years, and that was 60k or so in fees and I got unlucky with two of the biggest CPI adjustments in history thanks to Labors inflation.

 

[Festerz]

This may be more a question of accounting, but in terms of a HECs debt being reduced is it more foregone revenue than actual new spending? Is there an actual cost?

Yeah, it's a fair question.

The cost of lecturers, tutors, buildings, equipment energy etc that makes up tuition fees is a real cost - whether its provided by a private training provider or a university.

Taking on a student loan as opposed to paying those fees up front just means that the government has paid those costs and has reached an agreement with the student receiving that tuition to pay it back some time in the future under subsidised terms (not having to pay it back until your post graduate salary reaches a certain threshold for example).

There's a lot of emotional nonsense being spouted about this announcement and close to f-all proper evidence based assessment of it in the media But I'm with economists like Chris Richardson here. Taking $16 Billion out of the 2025/26 Budget to forgive 20% of student debt is the equivalent to a tax cut and because it isn't going to be means tested it's an after tax bonus that will be handed to a fair chunk of society that are in a better position than others without university qualifications and the careers that come with them. And bad luck to the poor suckers who paid off their student debt early - they got duped.

It's a real $16 billion dollar cost that does nothing for the nations future and does nothing to encourage more people to take up study or encourage people into work.

At the very least the wiping of the debt should have been means tested. That would have been far more equitable and made economic sense. But that would have blunted the political pre-election campaign messaging which is really what this announcement is all about.

Appreciate this thinking won't fit well in a thread like this. But as someone who has been called a 'Labor Party Shill' by partisan idiots in other threads I hope my reasoning here is seen as being driven by an honest personal assessment of it on policy rather than political terms.


Edit: And by the way, Saturday's announcement by Albanese to raise the minimum repayment threshold for student loans and cut repayment rates IS a very good policy decision on both equity and economic grounds imho for all the reasons that the debt decision isn't that I've outlined above.

 

[eddiesmith]

The whole vote for us and we'll do this after the election when you're in power and could do it now is just such a cancer

Yeah if you're in opposition sure

but why can't Labor do it now?

Oh that's right because then they couldn't use it as an election carrot, they'd rather people stay in debt to get them elected than fix stuff and see if people vote for them for that

heaven forbid we get actual change instead of the promise of change later

Which is why it’s likely to never happen.

Oh we promised to do it, but don’t have a majority in both houses so can’t get it done anymore…

 

[AvantGardener]

Lets not forget in order to accumulate a HELP debt you most likely got a CSP (Commonwealth Supported Place). Eg not only is your portion of the fees on historically one of the cheapest loans in history, but there is already a portion of the fees being paid by the government that you never have to pay back anyway.

 

[Festerz]

The whole vote for us and we'll do this after the election when you're in power and could do it now is just such a cancer

LOL. Welcome to the Australian democratic process that's had this as a feature forever.

Made worse by a constitution that forces people to the polls every three years and an upper house where members get elected for two election cycles - paving the way for an upper house that is often out of synch with prevailing voter sentiment and a newly elected government has to negotiate with a hostile Senate to pass any major legislation.

At least most state governments have shifted to four year fixed terms - providing a greater chance for an incoming government to develop and deliver meaningful policy change and accountability (and less excuses for them to explain why election policy promises aren't delivered)

 

[burge13]

Free education is always good policy, imo.

And governments can afford anything, they just can't afford everything. Education and training should always be a top priority and it's one that comes with a return on investment.

It's not 'free', it's never 'free'. Someone pays for it...

Why should pointless courses be free? Why should completely optional study be free?

Only targeted courses should be subsidised to help fill workforce shortages. Nonsense 'degrees', pay for it yourself

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Albanese's only policy is communism.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

It's not 'free', it's never 'free'. Someone pays for it...

Why should pointless courses be free? Why should completely optional study be free?

Only targeted courses should be subsidised to help fill workforce shortages. Nonsense 'degrees', pay for it yourself

Tax the mining companies properly to pay for it.

 

[peetoo]

they got the budget into surplus by leaving people behind

cost of living going up and welfare payments left below the poverty line

homelessness increasing

healthcare getting worse

yay budget surplus much wow

they sat on their hands for 2 years and now they're saying we'll do stuff after the election, promise

effectively an entire term where living conditions got materially worse for the majority of people so they could have a budget surplus

The alternative didn’t fix either ……. Intenionally

 

[burge13]

Tax the mining companies properly to pay for it.

Completely separate and irrelevant

Close all tax loopholes for multinationals etc, so few would be against this. But not relevant, as always with you

 

[Gralin]

LOL. Welcome to the Australian democratic process that's had this as a feature forever.

Made worse by a constitution that forces people to the polls every three years and an upper house where members get elected for two election cycles - paving the way for an upper house that is often out of synch with prevailing voter sentiment and a newly elected government has to negotiate with a hostile Senate to pass any major legislation.

At least most state governments have shifted to four year fixed terms - providing a greater chance for an incoming government to develop and deliver meaningful policy change and accountability (and less excuses for them to explain why election policy promises aren't delivered)

no welcome to modern western democracy where so called progressive governments dont want to fix anything this term because they want to use it to get elected again next term

its got nothing to do with anything else

Labor could have done this at any time but chose not to

do nothing then say we'll do it next time if you vote for us

then its we couldnt do it this term but we promise we'll do it next term

its a great way to not be progressive while sounding progressive

its purely about retaining power without having to actually make a change

 

[Gethelred]

It's not 'free', it's never 'free'. Someone pays for it...

Why should pointless courses be free? Why should completely optional study be free?

Only targeted courses should be subsidised to help fill workforce shortages. Nonsense 'degrees', pay for it yourself

What's a pointless course? How do you materially determine what a pointless course is throughout history?

How do you know what will - in the fullness of time - be a worthwhile endeavour or what will not be useful, in governmental timespans?

 

[burge13]

What's a pointless course? How do you materially determine what a pointless course is throughout history?

How do you know what will - in the fullness of time - be a worthwhile endeavour or what will not be useful, in governmental timespans?

Engineering, legal, medicine for example >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arts 'degrees'

Plenty of courses if you go through the course list aren't particularly necessary to get employment. Expensive pieces of paper

 

[AvantGardener]

What's a pointless course?

One you need you neighbour to pay for instead of paying for it yourself.

 

[MJG14]

Nice to see right wingers already going for the "woke arts degrees" and "champagne socialist" buzzwords that they usually go with for Uni degrees.

Conservatives and the Coalition whingeing about this being unfair because it doesn't benefit all Australians. Ok, let's get rid of negative gearing if that should be the basis for Government decision making!

 

[Ghost Patrol]

One you need you neighbour to pay for instead of paying for it yourself.

So fence building, tree lopping. That sort of thing?

 

[Festerz]

What's a pointless course? How do you materially determine what a pointless course is throughout history?

How do you know what will - in the fullness of time - be a worthwhile endeavour or what will not be useful, in governmental timespans?

I think you and the person you responded to are missing the point.

There are courses of study and training that are essential for getting a foothold or advancing a career in the employment market.

There are also courses of study that are essential for getting the skills or up-skilling to fill employment vacancies that are in desperate shortage by industry and the community.

There are also courses that are undertaken for purely private needs (such as self development and personal profit of the individual or business) of those enrolling in them.

The issue here is not the philosophical question of which course has more 'meaning'.

The nub of the public policy question that matters in terms of the Albanese announcement is which training courses should be fully funded (i.e. fully subsidised) by the taxpayer and which courses should be funded, in full or at least in part, by the individual or employer who receives the primary benefit from them.

Nowhere in yesterdays announcement(s) by Albanese have I seen this question answered despite the fact that there is a heap of high quality evidence based research being available on it.

 

[Gethelred]

Engineering, legal, medicine for example >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arts 'degrees'

Do you know what's taught in an arts degree? What the point of it is?

Academic rigour and discipline. Source verification and rapid data consumption. Presentation and interpersonal skills.

Any given Arts graduate has a specific field they've got their qualification in, but all know how to learn quickly, what expertise looks like, how to use information and where their own skills are lacking. These are not skills that are taught outside of university settings, because the entirety of highschool is aligned to serve VCE and ATAR scores; no time for critical thinking and the rest of the above.

The question then is, do they teach this stuff in STEM? Sometimes; one of the things I studied in as part of my management undergrad was organisational theory, which borrows very heavily from sociology and economics (both Arts major subjects). But other times - marketing has no time for this stuff - some stuff is left on the floor.

Plenty of courses if you go through the course list aren't particularly necessary to get employment. Expensive pieces of paper

What is the point of education, in your eyes?

And in any case, check this link:

Bachelor of Arts employability myth busters

Sorting the facts from fiction for arts graduate outcomes

study.uq.edu.au

While not 'necessary', they're potentially advantageous to possess.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Tax the mining companies properly to pay for it.

Mining companies literally pay the most tax in Australia lol.