Anthony Albanese - How long? -2-

[AvantGardener]

Conservatives and the Coalition whingeing about this being unfair because it doesn't benefit all Australians. Ok, let's get rid of negative gearing if that should be the basis for Government decision making!

The ability to claim losses on taxable income when those losses are obtained in the pursuit of obtaining taxable income is open to all Australians. We also know this legislation before making decisions, whereas writing off HELP debt is after the fact. Major difference.

 

[Gethelred]

One you need you neighbour to pay for instead of paying for it yourself.

Only those with the financial wherewithal to study should be allowed to study?

How... feudal of you.

 

[AvantGardener]

Only those with the financial wherewithal to study should be allowed to study?

How... feudal of you.

Nope. I agree with CSP and HELP (maybe not the exact makeup all the time but in principle). I don't agree with writing off HELP debts.

 

[JackOutback]

Engineering, legal, medicine for example >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arts 'degrees'

Plenty of courses if you go through the course list aren't particularly necessary to get employment. Expensive pieces of paper

What value arts, amirite? The Renaissance could have used a few more toilet unblockers and less artsy fartsy types.

Yeah, it's a fair question.

The cost of lecturers, tutors, buildings, equipment energy etc that makes up tuition fees is a real cost - whether its provided by a private training provider or a university.

Taking on a student loan as opposed to paying those fees up front just means that the government has paid those costs and has reached an agreement with the student receiving that tuition to pay it back some time in the future under subsidised terms (not having to pay it back until your post graduate salary reaches a certain threshold for example).

There's a lot of emotional nonsense being spouted about this announcement and close to f-all proper evidence based assessment of it in the media But I'm with economists like Chris Richardson here. Taking $16 Billion out of the 2025/26 Budget to forgive 20% of student debt is the equivalent to a tax cut and because it isn't going to be means tested it's an after tax bonus that will be handed to a fair chunk of society that are in a better position than others without university qualifications and the careers that come with them. And bad luck to the poor suckers who paid off their student debt early - they got duped.

It's a real $16 billion dollar cost that does nothing for the nations future and does nothing to encourage more people to take up study or encourage people into work.

At the very least the wiping of the debt should have been means tested. That would have been far more equitable and made economic sense. But that would have blunted the political pre-election campaign messaging which is really what this announcement is all about.

Appreciate this thinking won't fit well in a thread like this. But as someone who has been called a 'Labor Party Shill' by partisan idiots in other threads I hope my reasoning here is seen as being driven by an honest personal assessment of it on policy rather than political terms.


Edit: And by the way, Saturday's announcement by Albanese to raise the minimum repayment threshold for student loans and cut repayment rates IS a very good policy decision on both equity and economic grounds imho for all the reasons that the debt decision isn't that I've outlined above.

We make the decisions about foregone costs all the time, whether it's education, negative gearing, CGT, lack of tax on mining. I'm happy to see it go to education for once, which I see as far more noble as the others mentioned. Hell, if we taxed mining the way Norway or the UAE did, we could have free education, childcare and much much more.

 

[Gethelred]

Nope. I agree with CSP and HELP (maybe not the exact makeup all the time but in principle). I don't agree with writing off HELP debts.

What you said was this, in response to asking what a pointless course was:

One you need you neighbour to pay for instead of paying for it yourself.

Every single CSP holder or someone who possesses a HELP debt has their neighbour - provided said neighbour pays tax - contributing to their education.

Your post reeks of seeking out a punchline rather than consistency.

 

[AvantGardener]

What you said was this, in response to asking what a pointless course was:

Every single CSP holder or someone who possesses a HELP debt has their neighbour - provided said neighbour pays tax - contributing to their education.

Your post reeks of seeking out a punchline rather than consistency.

This subject is on topic and being spoken about because of writing off HELP debts. This subject is not on topic because of any political moves to change CSP.

Therefore due to what topic it is on my comment around having your neighbour pay was in relation to having neighbour pay your HELP debt, not having your neighbour pay the CSP.

CSP is completely different to HELP because CSP can address shortages and provide a stable future so there is at least some common good that the neighbour is paying for. Writing off a past HELP debt only helps that individual there is no common good for the neighbour.

 

[Gethelred]

This subject is on topic and being spoken about because of writing off HELP debts. This subject is not on topic because of any political moves to change CSP.

Therefore due to what topic it is on my comment around having your neighbour pay was in relation to having neighbour pay your HELP debt, not having your neighbour pay the CSP.

CSP is completely different to HELP because CSP can address shortages and provide a stable future so there is at least some common good that the neighbour is paying for. Writing off a past HELP debt only helps that individual there is no common good for the neighbour.

Dude, you said it:

One you need you neighbour to pay for instead of paying for it yourself.

If you don't want to look silly, don't attempt oneliners that aren't consistent with what you claim to believe.

 

[AvantGardener]

Dude, you said it:

If you don't want to look silly, don't attempt oneliners that aren't consistent with what you claim to believe.

Yes I said it in the context of writing off past HELP debts.

I appreciate there may have been some ambiguity but I have now clarified twice so move on.

 

[Gethelred]

Yes I said it in the context of writing off past HELP debts.

I appreciate there may have been some ambiguity...

Thank you. About all you needed to say.

... but I have now clarified twice so move on.

Certainly.

 

[nut]

Albanese's only policy is communism.

What about state owned nuclear plants that no one wants.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

This subject is on topic and being spoken about because of writing off HELP debts. This subject is not on topic because of any political moves to change CSP.

Therefore due to what topic it is on my comment around having your neighbour pay was in relation to having neighbour pay your HELP debt, not having your neighbour pay the CSP.

CSP is completely different to HELP because CSP can address shortages and provide a stable future so there is at least some common good that the neighbour is paying for. Writing off a past HELP debt only helps that individual there is no common good for the neighbour.

Aren’t you paying for your neighbour’s kids education?

 

[AvantGardener]

Aren’t you paying for your neighbour’s kids education?

Nope. One side I have a commercial building & the other side I don't think their genes could make it into uni. I really wanted to have a dig at that neighbour because their smokers cough woke me up this morning!

 

[the_interloper]

Engineering, legal, medicine for example >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arts 'degrees'

Plenty of courses if you go through the course list aren't particularly necessary to get employment. Expensive pieces of paper

It all depends on what your goal is with higher education. Mine was to get a good paying job so I did engineering without even really wanting to I guess.

A woman I work with did fine arts, loved the course but now she's in a shit job with no future really and is not happy about it.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Nope. One side I have a commercial building & the other side I don't think their genes could make it into uni. I really wanted to have a dig at that neighbour because their smokers cough woke me up this morning!

Your taxes help fund schools. Primary, secondary, tertiary.

 

[burge13]

It all depends on what your goal is with higher education. Mine was to get a good paying job so I did engineering without even really wanting to I guess.

A woman I work with did fine arts, loved the course but now she's in a shit job with no future really and is not happy about it.

That's fine but she chose to do that course so why should it be 'free'? Of course that has lesser job prospects to just about anything else. Why should the tax payer fund crap like that?

 

[the_interloper]

That's fine but she chose to do that course so why should it be 'free'? Of course that has lesser job prospects to just about anything else. Why should the tax payer fund crap like that?

Well of course it's a low interest loan not free, but i'm not sure you can decide which courses should get HELP funding and what shouldn't, seems like a slippery slope.

I mean if you can get HELP to do gender studies fine arts definitely should be on the list. But yeah an assumption that you'll earn good dough with a degree is a fallacy in a lot of cases, depends what it is of course, plus whatever soft skills you have.

 

[AvantGardener]

Your taxes help fund schools. Primary, secondary, tertiary.

Yes and there is some common good there providing a better society moving forward, with people being educated enough that I will have doctors, lawyers, retail assistants, mechanics, electricians to service my life when I am older. It also provides the young people structure and allows them to form relationships which stops societal issues like crime in the long run. So I can reconcile that we as society should fund some of this for common good. This is completely different to writing off HELP debt after the fact.

 

[burge13]

Well of course it's a low interest loan not free, but i'm not sure you can decide which courses should get HELP funding and what shouldn't, seems like a slippery slope.

I mean if you can get HELP to do gender studies fine arts definitely should be on the list. But yeah an assumption that you'll earn good dough with a degree is a fallacy in a lot of cases, depends what it is of course, plus whatever soft skills you have.

I have no problem with the HELP funding. People are wanting to wipe the debts making these courses 'free'. They shouldn't be

 

[JackOutback]

That's fine but she chose to do that course so why should it be 'free'? Of course that has lesser job prospects to just about anything else. Why should the tax payer fund crap like that?

Who are you to decide what's 'crap' and what's not? I might think your job has little value and vice versa. If the only function of society is to churn out people that can do practical jobs, that's a pretty shit society. We need artists, musicians, philosophers, filmmakers etc. It's enough that some of these pursuits result in less long-term financial gain without adding higher debt as well just because of reverse intellectualism snobbery.

 

[the_interloper]

I have no problem with the HELP funding. People are wanting to wipe the debts making these courses 'free'. They shouldn't be

Well I agree with that part, particularly after recently paying off probably $70k or thereabouts in HECS, which i was happy to do of course.

 

[burge13]

Who are you to decide what's 'crap' and what's not? I might think your job has little value and vice versa. If the only function of society is to churn out people that can do practical jobs, that's a pretty shit society. We need artists, musicians, philosophers, filmmakers etc. It's enough that some of these pursuits result in less long-term financial gain without adding higher debt as well just because of reverse intellectualism snobbery.

I'm not stopping her taking a course that leads to shitter job prospects

I am refuting the claim this shit should be 'free'.

I'd also argue good artists, musicians, philosophers, filmmakers wouldn't need uni to do it. Especially artists and musicians in this day and age

 

[JackOutback]

I'm not stopping her taking a course that leads to shitter job prospects

I am refuting the claim this shit should be 'free'.

I'd also argue good artists, musicians, philosophers, filmmakers wouldn't need uni to do it. Especially artists and musicians in this day and age

Education and training should be free for all, whether you want to train to be an electrician or study to be a philosopher.

We as a society have put a price on everything without understanding the real value of anything.

 

[AvantGardener]

I have no problem with the HELP funding. People are wanting to wipe the debts making these courses 'free'. They shouldn't be

Its amazing how many people want to change the topic away from govt wiping existing HELP debt into something else!

 

[AvantGardener]

Education and training should be free for all, whether you want to train to be an electrician or study to be a philosopher.

We as a society have put a price on everything without understanding the real value of anything.

How are you providing free education and training?

Are people really going to work to provide the education and training for no reward?

 

[Taylor]

Group in power promise to do something they have another six months to do if you give them another go at the job.

Pretty classic election maneuver. I wonder if those people with student loan debts will forget about the government's support of Israel over this.